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Ehem ehemLordXcano said:
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Metal Gear Solid Speed Downgrade
- Thread starter LordXcano
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- metal gear
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The Everlasting and SD are against it.
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@Aiden: I have added you, don't worry.
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There's a official list now?Lina Shields said:
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Maybe I just misread, but in the OP just clarify about Raiden
But there also the Ocelot feat at Mach 17
Shouldn't that scale to others too? Since Snake fought him and Raiden is swifter
But there also the Ocelot feat at Mach 17
Shouldn't that scale to others too? Since Snake fought him and Raiden is swifter
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Actually I am very unsure about that Ocelot feat at Mach 17, especially since stronger characters were shown to move much slower.
Also, the feat may violate some of the cinematic timing rules on the wiki, particularly rules number 4 and 5.
Also, the feat may violate some of the cinematic timing rules on the wiki, particularly rules number 4 and 5.
| Cinematic time should not be used if the time-frame the event of interest happens in occurs during a time-frame that is suggested to be sped up in any way and a cut is involved. |
- Right after Volgin fires the the electric bolt and the bolt travels a few meters, we get a separate scene of Ocelot drawing his gun and firing. We do not see what happens to the electricity at this exact scene.
| If a movement is suggested to be sped up or slowed down by an unknown degree, cinematic time should not be used. |
- In the scene, the lightning bolts and Ocelot's bullets were shown to be slowed dow, but Ocelot's movements were shown in real time.
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Well, I agree with the speed downgrades as well.
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Apparently there is a statement that Raiden's second body from Rising is twice as powerful as his first one.
I want to find that statement, if true we can at least scale Raiden from Tengu's speed and apply *2 multipliers.
I want to find that statement, if true we can at least scale Raiden from Tengu's speed and apply *2 multipliers.
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"Actually I am very unsure about that Ocelot feat at Mach 17, especially since stronger characters were shown to move much slower."
Different types of speed, one is reactions and other is running speed.
"Right after Volgin fires the the electric bolt and the bolt travels a few meters, we get a separate scene of Ocelot drawing his gun and firing. We do not see what happens to the electricity at this exact scene. "
That doesn't apply here as the lightning speed was calculated and ocelot managed to shot his gun six times before it even managed to close the distance between him and Volgin. that gives a timeframe to work with.
Different types of speed, one is reactions and other is running speed.
"Right after Volgin fires the the electric bolt and the bolt travels a few meters, we get a separate scene of Ocelot drawing his gun and firing. We do not see what happens to the electricity at this exact scene. "
That doesn't apply here as the lightning speed was calculated and ocelot managed to shot his gun six times before it even managed to close the distance between him and Volgin. that gives a timeframe to work with.
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I have encountered statements that, given multipliers, may place Raiden's Blade Mode speed at Mach 300+
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@Matt: Gameplay Feats > Statements, especially if those statements are contradicted.
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In short, here's how it goes:
Even MGS2 Raiden is faster than the Tengu units.
After he became a Cyborg in MGS4, he became far stronger and faster. Basically all the Cyborg Ninjas created before him were obsolete in comparison. I'd say a x2 Multiplier in speed would be reasonable.
Now for Rising:
Repeated statements that Raiden is [1] immensely ] above other cyborgs.
Now this is interesting the Doktor states that Raiden's second body has a reaction speed 1.4 times greater than before .
I'm going to assume that all of Raiden's new bodies improved his speed like that.
So we have:
Human Raiden: At least Mach 8.92 (Superior to the Tengu)
MGSIV Cyborg Raiden: Likely Mach 17.84 (Exponentially faster than his human form)
MGR First Cyborg Raiden: Likely Mach 24.976 (By scaling, likely 1.4 times faster than before)
MGR Second Cyborg Raiden: Likely Mach 34.9664 (1.4 times faster than his previous body)
MGR Second Cyborg Raiden Blade Mode: Likely Mach 349.66400
@Lina
There is no contradiction. MGR characters are far faster than all who appeared before them, so regardless if calcs place them at Mach 10 or Mach 10,000, it wouldn't be a contradiction. It'd only be a contradiction if say, Snake-Tier people were superior to them, which they aren't.
Even MGS2 Raiden is faster than the Tengu units.
After he became a Cyborg in MGS4, he became far stronger and faster. Basically all the Cyborg Ninjas created before him were obsolete in comparison. I'd say a x2 Multiplier in speed would be reasonable.
Now for Rising:
Repeated statements that Raiden is [1] immensely ] above other cyborgs.
Now this is interesting the Doktor states that Raiden's second body has a reaction speed 1.4 times greater than before .
I'm going to assume that all of Raiden's new bodies improved his speed like that.
So we have:
Human Raiden: At least Mach 8.92 (Superior to the Tengu)
MGSIV Cyborg Raiden: Likely Mach 17.84 (Exponentially faster than his human form)
MGR First Cyborg Raiden: Likely Mach 24.976 (By scaling, likely 1.4 times faster than before)
MGR Second Cyborg Raiden: Likely Mach 34.9664 (1.4 times faster than his previous body)
MGR Second Cyborg Raiden Blade Mode: Likely Mach 349.66400
@Lina
There is no contradiction. MGR characters are far faster than all who appeared before them, so regardless if calcs place them at Mach 10 or Mach 10,000, it wouldn't be a contradiction. It'd only be a contradiction if say, Snake-Tier people were superior to them, which they aren't.
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Lina asked me for input, but regrettably I do not think that I have much to add, as I do not know the franchise, and do not have the time and energy to read through hundreds of posts.
I suppose that the original post seems to make sense, if there is a consistency in terms of speed feats.
Is this a statements versus feats issue? There is no generic fit-all clear-cut answer about them after all.
I suppose that the original post seems to make sense, if there is a consistency in terms of speed feats.
Is this a statements versus feats issue? There is no generic fit-all clear-cut answer about them after all.
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This is a downgrade proposal from Massively Hypersonic MGS characters to the speed settings that LordXCano had proposed via his calculations.
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Yes, that much I understood. I just wondered about the nature of the controversy/disagreement.
Given that there is no 100% accurate answer regarding whether we should count feats over statements in general, or vice versa, rather than judging them on a case-by-case basis, these situations can sometimes lead to enormous discussions, like the one that we had regarding the scaling of Zelda a while back.
Given that there is no 100% accurate answer regarding whether we should count feats over statements in general, or vice versa, rather than judging them on a case-by-case basis, these situations can sometimes lead to enormous discussions, like the one that we had regarding the scaling of Zelda a while back.
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@Antvasima
Currently, I am fine with scaling everyone from Mach 8 Tengu feat. MGS Raiden himself was superior to them, and he was beneath Snake. Not to mention the various superior characters both have fought, such as Null, Vamp, Olga, Gray Fox, etc.
In regards to Metal Gear Rising, Raiden's feats of Mach 1700 and Mach 2000 were recalced into Mach 2.7 and Mach 9.
The reason I proposed that multiplier in the post above is that going solely by feats, Raiden would apparently simply be comparable to the Tengu units, and that is completely inaccurate.
As such, given that we know Raiden's second Cyborg body increased his speed in x1.4, I proposed scaling base Raiden from the Tengus and applying small multipliers for each new Cyborg Body.
For now, I feel that this is the best we can do to find an accurate rating.
Currently, I am fine with scaling everyone from Mach 8 Tengu feat. MGS Raiden himself was superior to them, and he was beneath Snake. Not to mention the various superior characters both have fought, such as Null, Vamp, Olga, Gray Fox, etc.
In regards to Metal Gear Rising, Raiden's feats of Mach 1700 and Mach 2000 were recalced into Mach 2.7 and Mach 9.
The reason I proposed that multiplier in the post above is that going solely by feats, Raiden would apparently simply be comparable to the Tengu units, and that is completely inaccurate.
As such, given that we know Raiden's second Cyborg body increased his speed in x1.4, I proposed scaling base Raiden from the Tengus and applying small multipliers for each new Cyborg Body.
For now, I feel that this is the best we can do to find an accurate rating.
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Alright, no problem.
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You're going to need a statement for this multiplier, as assuming them is unacceptable in most circumstances. The Doktor one is alright, so in that case its MGS4 Raiden or Intro MGR Raiden's reactions x 1.4.Matthew Schroeder said:
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@AMM
Well, there aren't statements on how much exactly each form improved Raiden, but we do know that MGS4 Cyborg Raiden was a huge leap from his human form. Hell, Cyborg Raiden from IV is the first thing in the series to outclass Snake by so much it's not even funny. People in the verse have been trying to surpass The Boss / Big Boss / Snake since the 1960s, and all sorts of superhumans, cyborgs and advanced weaponry have been employed against them and they all failed. The very fact that Snake is rendered obsolete by MGS4 is a feat on it's own. Raiden outclasses literally everything that came before in the Verse.
And then things just kept getting more absurd in Rising.
The only clear statement is that MGR Raiden's new body is x 1.4 times faster than his previous body. His Intro body was worked on by the same people, so I'm led to believe it too is x 1.4 times faster than his first Cyborg Body.
As for base Cyborg Raiden?
Well... Tengu (Mach 8.9) < Gray Fox < Raiden < Snake < Gene at his peak, to provide a speed scale, and Raiden outclasses them all.
Well, there aren't statements on how much exactly each form improved Raiden, but we do know that MGS4 Cyborg Raiden was a huge leap from his human form. Hell, Cyborg Raiden from IV is the first thing in the series to outclass Snake by so much it's not even funny. People in the verse have been trying to surpass The Boss / Big Boss / Snake since the 1960s, and all sorts of superhumans, cyborgs and advanced weaponry have been employed against them and they all failed. The very fact that Snake is rendered obsolete by MGS4 is a feat on it's own. Raiden outclasses literally everything that came before in the Verse.
And then things just kept getting more absurd in Rising.
The only clear statement is that MGR Raiden's new body is x 1.4 times faster than his previous body. His Intro body was worked on by the same people, so I'm led to believe it too is x 1.4 times faster than his first Cyborg Body.
As for base Cyborg Raiden?
Well... Tengu (Mach 8.9) < Gray Fox < Raiden < Snake < Gene at his peak, to provide a speed scale, and Raiden outclasses them all.
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In that case "At least x likely higher" would apply, not an assumed multiplier.
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Going by this, we'd end up.
Raiden: At least Hypersonic (Far above the Tengu units)
MGS IV Raiden: At least Hypersonic, likely Hypersonic+ (Immensely faster than before)
MGR Raiden I: At least Hypersonic+ (Likely 1.4 times faster than before)
MR Raiden II: At least Hypersonic+ (1.4 times faster than before), Massively Hypersonic in Blade Mode
Seems reasonable?
Raiden: At least Hypersonic (Far above the Tengu units)
MGS IV Raiden: At least Hypersonic, likely Hypersonic+ (Immensely faster than before)
MGR Raiden I: At least Hypersonic+ (Likely 1.4 times faster than before)
MR Raiden II: At least Hypersonic+ (1.4 times faster than before), Massively Hypersonic in Blade Mode
Seems reasonable?
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As far as I know, RM increase power, while BM increase Speed
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The issue is that, with the Mach 8.92 tengu calc, are the tengu units supposed to be canonically faster than Snake? Considering that all of Snake's speed feats come nowhere close to the Mach 8.92 feat, nor the Mach 17 feat, I would think that both of those speed feats are considered outliers due to the results being far above what the other calcs tell us.
It's similar in reasoning to why Avatar's Mach 12 lightning speed was considered an outlier due to most of the characters moving at Subsonic+ in speed.
Now, according to Matt's suggestion, I would suggest these for Raiden's speed.
It's similar in reasoning to why Avatar's Mach 12 lightning speed was considered an outlier due to most of the characters moving at Subsonic+ in speed.
Now, according to Matt's suggestion, I would suggest these for Raiden's speed.
- Raiden: At least Supersonic (Far above the Tengu units; comparable to Solid Snake)
- MGS IV Raiden: Hypersonic (Immensely faster than before. Much faster than Solid Snake and the Tengu units)
- MGR Raiden I: At least Hypersonic+ (Likely 1.4 times faster than before)
- a calc may be done on this, so this value may change.
- MR Raiden II: At least Hypersonic+ (1.4 times faster than before), Massively Hypersonic in Blade Mode
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It can't Hypersonic for being "Immensely faster"
But I think that "At least Supersonic+, likely Hypersonic seems reasonable
Same for MGR Raiden (At least Hypersonic, likely Hypersonic+)
MR Raiden suggestion is ok.
About Snake, doesn't he has a Supersonic+ feat on his profile? I'm saying that because his feat are mostly Sub/Trans/Supersonic
But I think that "At least Supersonic+, likely Hypersonic seems reasonable
Same for MGR Raiden (At least Hypersonic, likely Hypersonic+)
MR Raiden suggestion is ok.
About Snake, doesn't he has a Supersonic+ feat on his profile? I'm saying that because his feat are mostly Sub/Trans/Supersonic
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The issue is that, with the Mach 8.92 tengu calc, are the tengu units supposed to be canonically faster than Snake?
Tengus are fodder to Snake and Raiden, it's ridiculous to assume either of them being slower than supersonic and not get cleaved in half by a room full of hypersonic soldiers.
Tengus are fodder to Snake and Raiden, it's ridiculous to assume either of them being slower than supersonic and not get cleaved in half by a room full of hypersonic soldiers.
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Then the Mach 8.92 feat that he did should be considered an outlier then (as well as the Ocelot feat), as it heavily contradicts Snake's best speed feat, which caps out at Mach 3. Show me another calc (or two) from Snake that is able to reach those levels of speeds, and I will consider accepting the two calculations I have mentioned above.
That is my final answer for the topic regarding Snake's speed.
That is my final answer for the topic regarding Snake's speed.
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But DBZ has Sub-Rel feats at the begining, which mean that any lightspeed statement (Frieza's Death Beams) can be considered and not rejected as an outlier.
Here, we have a character with consistent Supersonic feats ( barely Supersonic) with only 2 Hypersonic+ feats.
Here, we have a character with consistent Supersonic feats ( barely Supersonic) with only 2 Hypersonic+ feats.
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lightspeed does not come from statements in the manga, the actual statement was piccolo saying something more like "I saw a a flash light" which doesn't necessarily mean the attack is lightspeed.AidenBrooks999 said:
http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/dragon-ball-feat-friezas-death-ball-speed.19129/
http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/another-fail-vegetas-final-flash-speed-2.18494/
http://forums.hero-academia.com/xfa-blog-entry/dragon-ball-z-feat-kid-gohans-kamehameha-speed.19286/
http://forums.hero-academia.com/xfa-blog-entry/gotenks-loop-de-loop.17762/
These are all calcs of speeds reached by stronger (and thus faster) characters than the ones who are supposed to be FTL and they all get calced to be subrelativistic consistently.
All I'm pointing out is the use of the logic above is a no-no simply because we are going to have to revise every major series' feats and rule out high end showings that don't match with the "consistent" results we get from calculations.
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@Aguila, this is a MG revision, not a DBZ one; true that we could revise several verses now, we can only made one at time (apparently), so drop this topic from this thread.
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I'm only citing DB as an example though, I'll take my leave since I already stated why I disagree with Lina's reasoning.
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Yes, but your statement an example is wrong.AguilaR101 said:
"A Flash of light". True, under regular circumstances it would considered hyperbole, but, in a verse with low tiers at Sub-Rel, "vague" statements like this one can be accepted
In this case, we a have a solid Supersonic Character with 2 Hypersonic feats (the second being really controversial and pretty much of an outlier itself). Cleary, there's a difference. Context.
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