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Meta narrative and Plot Manipulation for Ben 10

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Hellformer

Hellformer

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Introduction & Premise​

This thread is supposed to deal with establishment of Meta narrative in Ben 10 franchise, as a result giving Plot Manipulation to the Celestialsapiens.

Explanation​

"Celestialsapiens change the universe all the time, like even first thinker Azmuth's voice and appearance has changed on atleast 3 occasions. For all we know Celestialsapiens are out there changing the Universe at this very moment"
Click to expand...
(Ben 10 Omniverse season 6 episode 8)

  • There are multiple retcons in the series, such as changes in the history of certain characters like Kevin. In the UAF series, it was shown that Kevin had a dad who lost his life doing his Plumber job, but in the later series, it was revealed that Kevin's actual father is unknown, and the memory of his father dying was due to him being manipulated by Servantis.
  • In the OV series, Ben's artstyle was completely different from the one shown in the UAF series. In this scene from Ben 10 Omniverse season 7 episode 4, Ben remembers his past self as the same as his OV artstyle despite being aware of Chadzmuth statement of Celestialsapiens changing the Universe to the extent of altering voice and appearance and changing the literal plot and history of characters. If this was just regular Reality warping, Ben should've been aware about his art style being changed which would be almost impossible for him to know if the reality warping feat was done on a plot level not only that but also Celestialsapiens changing the universe caused serval plot holes and retcons in the show.
  • Here is the list all the retcons in the franchise and Celestialsapiens are the ones to be blamed for such things to make sense in-verse.

Now we have Joe Kelly's statement as a backup to my prior claim:

Question: Hey in Ben 10 Omniverse it is shown that Celestialsapiens can literally make real changes in the show like the artstyle and voice changes. So does Alien X or Celestialsapiens have plot manipulation and can change the entire plot of Ben 10 franchise?
Joe Kelly's response: I suppose so-which would put me out of job
Click to expand...

This statement reinforces the idea of the authors blaming Celestialsapiens as a reason for in-verse retcons of the series.

Furthermore we have Dan Riba's statement in which he says that they used Alien X's Universe recreation as a justification for some retcons which helps giving grounds for Celestialsapiens to act as in-verse authors for rewriting plot of the Ben 10 franchise.
Metafiction is a form of fiction that emphasizes its own narrative structure in a way that inherently reminds the audience that they are reading or viewing a fictional work. Metafiction is self-conscious about language, literary form, and story-telling, and works of metafiction directly or indirectly draw attention to their status as artifacts. Metafiction is frequently used as a form of parody or a tool to undermine literary conventions and explore the relationship between literature and reality, life, and art.

By definition, Metafictional narrative means that the readers are aware of viewing a piece of fiction in such a way that the real life changes made to it are justified as someone doing from that fictional verse itself, in this case the Celestialsapiens exist as in-verse authors of the show.

From the plot manipulation page, this where the abilities of Celestialsapiens seem to fit

Conclusion​

Ultimately, this would establish Meta narrative in the Ben 10 Franchise with the Celestialsapiens being the Inverse authors of Ben 10. Due to which they will get plot manipulation ability.

Agree:
Disagree: @Theglassman12 @AbaddonTheDisappointment
Neutral:
 
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The statement for Alien X's recreation of the universe being the reason for retcons seems like a valid point, considering the fact that we've seen Alien X make mistakes with the universe, like the smoothie flavor and the logo. I don't think it contradicts anything either, so the statement should be valid to use.

Agree for now.
 
Hmm Neutral but i am leaning towards disagreeing there are some flaws.
Hellformer said:

Explanation​

"Celestialsapiens change the universe all the time, like even first thinker Azmuth's voice and appearance has changed on atleast 3 occasions. For all we know Celestialsapiens are out there changing the Universe at this very moment"
(Ben 10 Omniverse season 6 episode 8)
Click to expand...
The quote from Ben 10 Omniverse Season 6 Episode 8 only says Celestialsapiens change the universe, which can imply various types of reality-altering powers without directly equating them to plot manipulation. Using this as evidence for full plot manipulation is a stretch.

In Ben 10 Omniverse yes they mention Celestialsapiens are able to change the universe, this is likely a narrative explanation for external productional changes (such as artistic decisions). These changes are not described as literal "plot manipulation" in the traditional sense. In metafiction, the audience recognizes the story as fictional, but justifying production decisions in-universe doesn’t equate to the power of plot manipulation. This is a form of diegetic narrative acknowledgment rather than explicit manipulation of the plot itself.
Hellformer said:
  • There are multiple retcons in the series, such as changes in the history of certain characters like Kevin. In the UAF series, it was shown that Kevin had a dad who lost his life doing his Plumber job, but in the later series, it was revealed that Kevin's actual father is unknown, and the memory of his father dying was due to him being manipulated by
Click to expand...
Retcons are common in many franchises and are usually decisions made by writers to adjust the story, not necessarily something characters within the story control. The changes to Kevin’s history are examples of retroactive continuity, which is an authorial decision rather than a demonstration of plot manipulation by Celestialsapiens. The narrative adjusts, but nothing indicates that these adjustments are consciously made by Celestialsapiens with intent to manipulate the plot.
Hellformer said:
Now we have Joe Kelly's statement as a backup to my prior claim:

Question: Hey in Ben 10 Omniverse it is shown that Celestialsapiens can literally make real changes in the show like the artstyle and voice changes. So does Alien X or Celestialsapiens have plot manipulation and can change the entire plot of Ben 10 franchise?
Joe Kelly's response: I suppose so-which would put me out of job

This statement reinforces the idea of the authors blaming Celestialsapiens as a reason for in-verse retcons of the series.
Click to expand...
Also this response from Joe Kelly appears to be a casual, off-the-cuff remark rather than a definitive confirmation of plot manipulation. This is an example of a leading question, where the question asked presupposes a specific outcome (“So does Alien X... have plot manipulation?”). The answer doesn’t provide direct evidence, but instead relies on a speculative "I suppose" followed by a joke, which weakens its validity as evidence.
Hellformer said:
Furthermore we have Dan Riba's statement in which he says that they used Alien X's Universe recreation as a justification for some retcons which helps giving grounds for Celestialsapiens to act as in-verse authors for rewriting plot of the Ben 10 franchise.
Click to expand...
Dan Ribas acknowledges that Alien X’s reality-altering powers serve as a justification for some retcons, this does not confirm plot manipulation. It simply highlights the use of Alien X’s powers to explain in-universe events from a narrative perspective. There is no explicit mention that Celestialsapiens rewrite the plot itself, rather they reshape reality, which is more aligned with reality-warping than direct plot manipulation.
 
Forthegood said:
Hmm Neutral but i am leaning towards disagreeing there are some flaws.

The quote from Ben 10 Omniverse Season 6 Episode 8 only says Celestialsapiens change the universe, which can imply various types of reality-altering powers without directly equating them to plot manipulation. Using this as evidence for full plot manipulation is a stretch.
Click to expand...
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
I have to disagree. This just seems like a tool for the writers to explain retcons and changes via the Reality Warping of Celestialsapiens.

The only good evidence is the wog, which just seems like a joke and a leading question.
Click to expand...
You do know that plot manipulation is a subset of reality warping right? For instance, if some character reverses time, it's clear cut time manipulation feat or else someone calling it reality warping without diving deeper into the context is invalid. So I'd suggest you guys to broaden your perspective to see things consistent with each other.
Forthegood said:
In Ben 10 Omniverse yes they mention Celestialsapiens are able to change the universe, this is likely a narrative explanation for external productional changes (such as artistic decisions). These changes are not described as literal "plot manipulation" in the traditional sense. In metafiction, the audience recognizes the story as fictional, but justifying production decisions in-universe doesn’t equate to the power of plot manipulation. This is a form of diegetic narrative acknowledgment rather than explicit manipulation of the plot itself.
Click to expand...
It's literally what the uses of PM are. How do ya expect them to say, "hey we perform plot manipulation"?
Hellformer said:
From the plot manipulation page, this where the abilities of Celestialsapiens seem to fit
Click to expand...

Forthegood said:
Retcons are common in many franchises and are usually decisions made by writers to adjust the story, not necessarily something characters within the story control. The changes to Kevin’s history are examples of retroactive continuity, which is an authorial decision rather than a demonstration of plot manipulation by Celestialsapiens. The narrative adjusts, but nothing indicates that these adjustments are consciously made by Celestialsapiens with intent to manipulate the plot.
Click to expand...
"Celestialsapiens change the Universe all the time"
It's a clear cut statement or who else could do it in-verse?
Forthegood said:
Also this response from Joe Kelly appears to be a casual, off-the-cuff remark rather than a definitive confirmation of plot manipulation. This is an example of a leading question, where the question asked presupposes a specific outcome (“So does Alien X... have plot manipulation?”). The answer doesn’t provide direct evidence, but instead relies on a speculative "I suppose" followed by a joke, which weakens its validity as evidence.
Click to expand...
This literally just confirms that authors use Celestialsapiens as a means to cover up retcons and changes in-verse which is consistent with Dan Riba's statement.
Forthegood said:
Dan Ribas acknowledges that Alien X’s reality-altering powers serve as a justification for some retcons, this does not confirm plot manipulation. It simply highlights the use of Alien X’s powers to explain in-universe events from a narrative perspective. There is no explicit mention that Celestialsapiens rewrite the plot itself, rather they reshape reality, which is more aligned with reality-warping than direct plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
Again, you're trying to merge them as if they're completely same. The writers literally use Celestialsapiens as a tool to justify their plot changes of the story for the readers to make sense about things happening in-verse.
 
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ShionAH said:
No way you are using a leading quote that directly asks if Alien X has Plot Manipulation as evidence, Ben 10 supporters hit a new low lmao

Disagree FRA
Click to expand...
Don't act as if the thread is completely reliant on that certain statement lmao. Especially for people like you who hops into certain threads for the sake of disagreeing with the proposal instead of trying to make things seem easier. Or else just don't comment if you're tryna blame the entire fandom.
 
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That statement purely exists as a backup, the proposal isn't completely dependent on it.
 
ShionAH said:
Rest of the feats are Reality Warping without further proof
Click to expand...
No
Hellformer said:
You do know that plot manipulation is a subset of reality warping right? For instance, if some character reverses time, it's clear cut time manipulation feat or else someone calling it reality warping without diving deeper into the context is invalid. So I'd suggest you guys to broaden your perspective to see things consistent with each other.

This literally just confirms that authors use Celestialsapiens as a means to cover up retcons and changes in-verse which is consistent with Dan Riba's statement.
Click to expand...
In the OV series, Ben's artstyle was completely different from the one shown in the UAF series. In this scene from Ben 10 Omniverse season 7 episode 4, Ben remembers his past self as the same as his OV artstyle despite being aware of Chadzmuth statement of Celestialsapiens changing the Universe to the extent of altering voice and appearance and changing the literal plot and history of characters, as said by Dan Riba, the crew of the show used Celestialsapiens as a means to justify the changes which is why it was teased in s6 ep8. If this was just regular Reality warping, Ben should've been aware about his art style being changed which would be almost impossible for him to know if the reality warping feat was done on a plot level.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Hellformer said:
You do know that plot manipulation is a subset of reality warping right? For instance, if some character reverses time, it's clear cut time manipulation feat or else someone calling it reality warping without diving deeper into the context is invalid. So I'd suggest you guys to broaden your perspective to see things consistent with each other.

It's literally what the uses of PM are. How do ya expect them to say, "hey we perform plot manipulation"?



"Celestialsapiens change the Universe all the time"
It's a clear cut statement or who else could do it in-verse?

This literally just confirms that authors use Celestialsapiens as a means to cover up retcons and changes in-verse which is consistent with Dan Riba's statement.

Again, you're trying to merge them as if they're completely same. The writers literally use Celestialsapiens as a tool to justify their plot changes of the story for the readers to make sense about things happening in-verse.
Click to expand...
Will respond to this later
 
Forthegood said:
Will respond to this later
Click to expand...
Read this if you might change your mind
Hellformer said:
In the OV series, Ben's artstyle was completely different from the one shown in the UAF series. In this scene from Ben 10 Omniverse season 7 episode 4, Ben remembers his past self as the same as his OV artstyle despite being aware of Chadzmuth statement of Celestialsapiens changing the Universe to the extent of altering voice and appearance and changing the literal plot and history of characters, as said by Dan Riba, the crew of the show used Celestialsapiens as a means to justify the changes which is why it was teased in s6 ep8. If this was just regular Reality warping, Ben should've been aware about his art style being changed which would be almost impossible for him to know if the reality warping feat was done on a plot level.
Click to expand...
 
Author statement qna is literally for powerscaling

But we need a literal evidence where "plot manipulation" is literally mentioned

Why it always happens to Ben 10?
 
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