Meta Cooler upgrade?

[TyranoDoom30]

(VSBW is kinda weird for me for some reason so i can't post links properly.)

Dainzenshuu 6 officially puts Movie 6 during the wait for the Cell Games.



Therefore, Meta Cooler fought and could overpower a Full Power Super Saiyan Goku, thus, making him High Universal and Infinite speed.

That's it really.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Seems like it, yup.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Besides, as per Takao Koyama's villain philosophy, Meta Cooler is weaker than Super Android 13, who is only more powerful than three normal Super Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta, Trunks; before Cell even achieved its Perfect form, and before any of the Saiyans entered the Room of Spirit and Time).

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It really can't be Alternate History with the way we treat Movies right now, a.k.a. literally just part of the Anime Canon.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That's stupid. That's incredibly stupid.

Whatever, then. An upgrade's in order.

 

[Chariot190]

Or........................................................
We could not be deliberately ignorant and not pretend it makes sense when it doesn't.

Even if it's anime canon, that doesn't mean it ain't inconsistent af and full of contradictions that makes scaling it off certain stuff completely unfeasible,

It can be canon all it wants, being canon doesn't exempt it from being dumb as shit and impossible to scale in a straightforward manner. Kinda hard to scale it off the stuff we list as High 3-A or infinite if Meta-Cooler never fought said things in the movie, alleged time placement or not.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Except the Daizenshuu blatantly puts the movie during Cell Games. If it's during Cell Games it's during that. No if's or buts.

There is objectively no contradiction if we put this movie during the wait for the Cell Games outside of maybe Gohan not turning SSJ. Even then, one of the only two movies listed in the official timeline has Gohan still having a tail and having his Namek Arc design rather than what we see early in the Cell Arc, or Goku not immediately turning SSJ against Cooler and instead relying on Kaioken. Said movie also released just the aftermath of Trunks killing Freeza and it seems to treat Goku as the one who killed Freeza.

Even Broly which is blatantly during the Cell Games has the characters in their Base Forms instead of FPSSJ

 

[Ednaxel2]

The only thing supporting it being placed right before the Cell Games (apart from the Daizenshuu statement) is Dende being the guardian of Earth

 

[TyranoDoom30]

The only thing supporting it being placed right before the Cell Games (apart from the Daizenshuu statement) is Dende being the guardian of Earth

And a mark less gi from Goku, which he only had during the Cell Games.

 

[Ednaxel2]

And a mark less dougi from Goku, which he only had during the Cell Games.

That too. Having the movies all be canon to the anime is a bit annoying timeline wise

 

[TyranoDoom30]

That too. Having the movies all be canon to the anime is a bit annoying timeline wise

Honestly i don't think most of them should at all but here we are (And this is from the guy who thinks you can make a case for a Canon Garlic Jr and Cooler existing in the main Toriyama canon)

 

[Robo432343]

@Damage3245

 

[Chariot190]

Except the Daizenshuu blatantly puts the movie during Cell Games. If it's during Cell Games it's during that. No if's or buts.

Except [list of a fucktrillion contradictions and issues]. If it listed it in the Buu Saga or Freeza Saga would you still argue it?

There is objectively no contradiction if we put this movie during the wait for the Cell Games outside of maybe Gohan not turning SSJ.

I can think of a dozen. Where the **** is Trunks? Why isn't Vegeta using his thing? The hell is Krillin doing?
Why is Goku in base? Why is Gohan in base? (Don't forget they explictly said they weren't going to depower). Why is Gohan literally before he entered the time chamber and thus before the thing that made Goku High 3-A and Infinite and-

Even then, one of the only two movies listed in the official timeline has Gohan still having a tail and having his Namek Arc design rather than what we see early in the Cell Arc,

Two wrongs don't make a right.

or Goku not immediately turning SSJ against Cooler and instead relying on Kaioken.

Fifty wrongs don't make a right. Also that's a hell of a lot less egregious than trying to scale Meta-Cooler to a form that didn't exist at the time and Goku evidently didn't got because he got it by training with Gohan, whom is prior to his training in this movie.

Said movie also released just the aftermath of Trunks killing Freeza and it seems to treat Goku as the one who killed Freeza.

You're literally explaining why we shouldn't be scaling them to Grade 4.

Even Broly which is blatantly during the Cell Games has the characters in their Base Forms instead of FPSSJ

One fucktrillion wrongs don't make a right.

If you want to put it in the ten days. It'd literally be like, while Trunks was fighting Perfect Cell, and everyone JUST so happened to **** off to fight Meta Cooler and Goku and Gohan came out early to **** around, just to go back in right away. And also Krillin dipped on Trunks and came back in the like, 1 minute gap he was offscreen while they were fighting, all so it can fit in the 10 days because Cell says "see ya in 10 days fucko" so that's the start and Trunks ain't it Meta cooler so it makes sense idk probably.
movie has to take place in like a 40 second gap
and have a bunch of wild as **** contrivences like goku and gohan dipping out of the chamber early
just to go back in
to explain gohans age, as just ONE of the problems, which also makes it so Meta doesn't even scale anyway.
except dende is a thing isnt he?
nvm
shit's ******

Movie can be canon, it being canon doesn;t change the fact it's riddled with plotholes, contradictions, and the thing you're trying to scale off isn't even in the movie so timeline placement be damned it don;'t matter anyway.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Except [list of a fucktrillion contradictions and issues]. If it listed it in the Buu Saga or Freeza Saga would you still argue it?

If we treat Tree of Might as canon, so be it

Where the **** is Trunks?

Where is Vegeta in Movie 5?

Why isn't Vegeta using his thing?

Why didn't he use his thing against Bojack?

The hell is Krillin doing?

Being a loser, a common old DBZ movie trope

Why is Goku in base? Why is Gohan in base?

Why are they in base during Broly?

Two wrongs don't make a right

Except they are both in the same timeline under our current stats, so yes, they make it right

Also that's a hell of a lot less egregious than trying to scale Meta-Cooler to a form that didn't exist at the time and Goku evidently didn't got because he got it by training with Gohan

See, there's this thing called a "retcon". By the time the Cell arc was finished, this movie was retroactively placed during the Cell Games by an official source approved by Toriyama. As i said, there's no if's or buts here.

You're literally explaining why we shouldn't be scaling them to Grade 4.

Yet Movie 5 is in fact after Trunks killed Freeza. Again, this is the same type of situation as this movie

One fucktrillion wrongs don't make a right.

Except it's the same type of argument you are using against Movie 6 being during the Cell Games. Goku and Gohan are in Base during Broly, which would make it before Cell Games, which it obviously isn't.

If you want to put it in the ten days. It'd literally be like, while Trunks was fighting Perfect Cell, and everyone JUST so happened to ** off to fight Meta Cooler and Goku and Gohan came out early to ** around, just to go back in right away.

In Broly movie everyone on the team and people elsewhere are having a chill time and relaxing around in a picnic with Krillin singing about love when he had his crush just absorbed days ago by a artificial freak of nature who's about to hold a world ending tournament (Even the Dainzenshuu knows this is questionable). We treat that as canon

movie has to take place in like a 40 second gap

I dunno 10 days is alot of time, as proved by the Broly movie

Many of these arguments are instantly thrown out the moment we treat the movies and the anime as one in the same timeline, where all these types of contradictions with the supposed timeline placement are perfectly fine and did actually happened canonically. So no matter the contradiction, Meta Cooler fought with a FPSSJ Goku and could overwhelm him.

 

[Robo432343]

bro we don't allow contradictions like this

its in the rules

 

[TyranoDoom30]

bro we don't allow contradictions like this

its in the rules

What rules? We treat all the movies as canon now

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

None of the contradictions in the Metal Cooler are as egregious as Tree of Might or Fusion Reborn.

Even the objectively canon ones like Garlic Jr. and the first Cooler Movie are filled with plot holes.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Sounds like some of the other movies shouldn't be treated as canon either.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Sounds like some of the other movies shouldn't be treated as canon either.

That’s how it was like before

 

[Chariot190]

If we treat Tree of Might as canon, so be it

You realize this argument means absolutely nothing to me right? Stop literally pretending and being deliberatly ignorant for big number. I don't care about that, and also not even an argument, I said it can be canon. It being canon doesn't mean it isn't riddled with bullshit. Don't strawman.

Where is Vegeta in Movie 5?

That's a really good question.

Why didn't he use his thing against Bojack?

Probably because he went in the Time Chamber again and invalidated it? That, or he just choose not to, unfortunately Meta-Cooler takes place when that was Vegeta's go to.
Why ask questions we actually have the answer to.

But cool, if we use that as an argument, that's fine, now prove they went Grade 4 in Meta-Cooler.

Being a loser, a common old DBZ movie trope

So you don't have an argument. I'm not here to listen unfunny jokes, don't waste time and give real substantial reasoning.

Why are they in base during Broly?

Good question my dude. It's almost like you think I think Broly makes sense too.

Except they are both in the same timeline under our current stats, so yes, they make it right

So deliberate ignorance, pretending, and wanking for big number.

I don't give a shit dude, give me a real actual reason, explain the contradictions. If you can't do that, you don't have an actual argument and are literally asking everyone to straight up pretend wrong is right.

Newsflash, we're supposed to index stuff accurately, not go "oh well it's ALL dumb, so this being ULTRA dumb, let's just ignore that, make up a few things that don't exist, and because we just made up those things, it enables us to do some funny scaling".

See, there's this thing called a "retcon". By the time the Cell arc was finished, this movie was retroactively placed during the Cell Games by an official source approved by Toriyama.

Retcon argument is legit actual cope. That isn't even what the scan is saying, the scan is legit just going "well these 3 things are in it, so like, I guess it's here?".

"this movie with like a dozen contradictions that can't be reconciled at all, is here in the timeline, so let's pretend a bunch of shit happened differently, so we can wank the shit out of it lmao" is all I'm getting from your reply.

Toriyama also said the movies alt stories and shit, how do we know Goku is these stats in this? Wanna take the dude at his word go ahead, we call that cherry picking.
Not even his word anyway, literally don't think he gave a shit about this small trivial tidbit, why would he? They gave some sort of reason and prob went "yep that checks out ig".

Not to mention, again, newsflash, guide books only get used if they aren't contradicted, hate to break it to you but there's so much wrong here that the fact you even thought to bring this up is baffling in and of itself.

There's contradictions with this statement, it gets tossed, DBZ ain't special, that's ho we treat every other supplementary guide book statement known to mn on wiki.

Plus this argument doesn't even work, retconned? Ok cool, prove they used Grade 4 against Meta-Cooler, if you can't, well he ain't scaling regardless. You've already pointed out yourself in multiple movies of them not using forms they technically had, so why here?

As i said, there's no if's or buts here.

Except I can think of literally dozens.

Yet Movie 5 is in fact after Trunks killed Freeza. Again, this is the same type of situation as this movie

I literally do not care.
"this is dumb so this also being dumb is fine", no that just means both dumb, two wrongs don't make a right despite your actual affirmation it somehow does.

Except it's the same type of argument you are using against Movie 6 being during the Cell Games. Goku and Gohan are in Base during Broly, which would make it before Cell Games, which it obviously isn't.

I DO NOT CARE dude, **** it too then, I legit don't give a damn. You're giving reasons why they should be looked at and scrutinzed, not why Meta-Cooler gets a pass, do you not realize that?

In Broly movie everyone on the team and people elsewhere are having a chill time and relaxing around in a picnic with Krillin singing about love when he had his crush just absorbed days ago by a artificial freak of nature who's about to hold a world ending tournament (Even the Dainzenshuu knows this is questionable). We treat that as canon

Damn, do not care. These ain't even arguments or reasonings why Meta-Cooler scales to shit, it's just "these other movies also had **** ups and contradictions, so Meta-Cooler scales", you haven't even got past the part they didn't use Grade 4 in the movie anyway, even if we decide to be actively ignorant and obtuse and cover our eyes and pretend otherwise for big number.

I dunno 10 days is alot of time, as proved by the Broly movie

Unfortunate then given it can only take place within a hyper specific window within said ten days. stop being obtuse.

Many of these arguments are instantly thrown out the moment we treat the movies and the anime as one in the same timeline, where all these types of contradictions with the supposed timeline placement are perfectly fine and did actually happened canonically. So no matter the contradiction,

These aren't arguments, I'm flatout telling you to stop wanking. Shit being canon, which is how we treat it, and shit being perfectly fine scaling wise, not riddled with fuckups, contradictions, and what not, are not the same thing.

Something can be canon, and still be wrong.

Meta Cooler fought with a FPSSJ Goku and could overwhelm him.

Nope, gotta prove that. You gave examples where Goku and lads didn't use forms they had, so no reason to assume it here. We can tell they didn't because Grade 4 is animated differently, so there goes that. Even if we accept the literal cope of a retcon and just straight up wank, you still gotta prove that.

Like I'm not really sure what else to say besides it being canon doesn't mean it can be scaled properly or is exempt from contradictions. Guide yap only get used if they AREN'T contradicted (so pretty huge problem right off the bat preventing this from being accepted). And Meta-Cooler didn't even fight the shit you trying to scale him to anyway regardless of when it takes place.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Listen, if you want to remove the movies from the Anime canon, you can just go ahead and do that in its own CRT.
I believe you already know that.

Also Grade 4 is literally just basic SSJ

 

[TyranoDoom30]

You realize this argument means absolutely nothing to me right? Stop literally pretending and being deliberatly ignorant for big number. I don't care about that, and also not even an argument, I said it can be canon. It being canon doesn't mean it isn't riddled with bullshit. Don't strawman.

Except that is the exact point: Tree of Might has hundreds of tons of contradictions to the time it takes place yet we not only consider the movie canon but we place the characters' at the power level they were during the main canon's time and of the movie itself. You would have to make a CRT to remove that.

Probably because he went in the Time Chamber again and invalidated it?

Oh, so same here?

So you don't have an argument. I'm not here to listen unfunny jokes, don't waste time and give real substantial reasoning.

And what does Krillin have to do with literally anything? This is just some crappy reasoning as he literally provides almost nothing substantial to disprove this movie's placement. Provide a real argument.

Good question my dude. It's almost like you think I think Broly makes sense too.

Except it's not about you, it's about what "we" think, and we think Broly makes sense and is canon to the Anime. If you disagree with it, go make a CRT.

I don't give a shit dude, give me a real actual reason, explain the contradictions

I literally explained most of them with the movie's official placement and what we currently treat of the movies, read again.

Newsflash, we're supposed to index stuff accurately, not go "oh well it's ALL dumb, so this being ULTRA dumb, let's just ignore that, make up a few things that don't exist, and because we just made up those things, it enables us to do some funny scaling".

Movies like Tree of Might and Lord Slug all have layers of extra dumbness to them and yet here we are, treating them as canon. If they can be canon and be fine with the time they're supposed to take place, why not this?

Retcon argument is legit actual cope. That isn't even what the scan is saying, the scan is legit just going "well these 3 things are in it, so like, I guess it's here?".

So...what the Daizenshuu does for the rest of the movies?

"this movie with like a dozen contradictions that can't be reconciled at all, is here in the timeline, so let's pretend a bunch of shit happened differently, so we can wank the shit out of it lmao" is all I'm getting from your reply.

Less that and more so "We currently treat the movies and anime as one in the same timeline and the Dainzenshuu is the most reliable source about the movies' placement thus we scale the movie characters to the placement of the movies within the main canon despite all the contradictions."

Toriyama also said the movies alt stories and shit, how do we know Goku is these stats in this?

Make a CRT then to make them non canonical again.

Not to mention, again, newsflash, guide books only get used if they aren't contradicted

And Daizenshuu isn't contradicted in any case here, let alone how even the movies where we have a good idea where they take place have contradictions yet we are still fine with scaling them to the time they take place (i.e Broly and Cooler)

Plus this argument doesn't even work, retconned? Ok cool, prove they used Grade 4 against Meta-Cooler

Dainzenshuu 6 says it takes place during Cell Games, no futher is needed really. Also, Grade 4 and Grade 1 are pretty much identical

I literally do not care.
"this is dumb so this also being dumb is fine", no that just means both dumb, two wrongs don't make a right despite your actual affirmation it somehow does.

If it's perfectly canon, then this can be so as well, as dumb as it sounds.

I DO NOT CARE dude, **** it too then, I legit don't give a damn. You're giving reasons why they should be looked at and scrutinzed, not why Meta-Cooler gets a pass, do you not realize that?

I do realize that, and there's pretty much nothing different between Meta Cooler and the other movies in terms of timeline placement and contradictions

Damn, do not care.

You should because we treat these as canon. Yet again, If you disagree, go make a thread proving why it's bull.

These ain't even arguments or reasonings why Meta-Cooler scales to shit, it's just "these other movies also had **** ups and contradictions, so Meta-Cooler scales"

Thing is: Movies 1 and Movies 5 are objectively canon and they still feature plot holes that either result of the time they were made or from stupid crap.

Despite all of these, they are accurately placed by the Dainzenshuu at the times they most likely take place at. It's worth mentioning that the movies are mostly intertwined with the Anime for their releases and plot (Meta Cooler was released shortly after Vegeta revealed SSJ against Android 19, Bojack was released shortly after Goku decides to stay dead, Cooler was released after a part of Goku and Freeza's fight, etc), despite that the Dainzenshuu still places something like Movie 5 and 6 during the 3 year timeskip and Cell Games respectively.

Unfortunate then given it can only take place within a hyper specific window within said ten days. stop being obtuse.

So does Broly.

These aren't arguments, I'm flatout telling you to stop wanking. Shit being canon, which is how we treat it, and shit being perfectly fine scaling wise, not riddled with fuckups, contradictions, and what not, are not the same thing.

I'm not "wanking", i'm simply using the standards we currently use for the Toei Anime's scaling and what official primary source guidebooks say to accurately scale these characters. If you don't prove that Meta Cooler and other movies aren't canon and make a CRT until then, Meta Cooler taking place during the last stakes of the Cell Arc is perfectly fine.

Honestly it just sounds like you don't want Meta Cooler to be comparable to Perfect Cell.

 

[Robo432343]

no one is even denying that its not canon so stop saying "grrr go make a crt"

its canon but with a fuckton of issues
thats the point

 

[TyranoDoom30]

its canon but with a fuckton of issues
thats the point

So are Tree of Might, Broly movie, Lord Slug, World's Strongest, etc.

If we are fine with them scaling to the time they supposedly take place at, why not this? Sounds like some cherry picking to me.

Let alone ignoring the fact that Goku's mark less gi and Dende being God can only be during Cell Games, no if's or buts. If you disagree, go back in time and talk with Toriyama.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

no one is even denying that its not canon so stop saying "grrr go make a crt"

its canon but with a fuckton of issues
thats the point

What does that even mean?
If the movie ever happened, then Cooler fought against High 3-A Goku and Vegeta, and those would be his only feats.
If it didn't, then it isn't canon.

 

[Robo432343]

So are Tree of Might, Broly movie, Lord Slug, World's Strongest, etc.

If we are fine with them scaling to the time they supposedly take place at, why not this? Sounds like some cherry picking to me.

Why are we pretending like this is okay??? Its not.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Why are we pretending like this is okay??? Its not.

Because we do treat it as okay

 

[Damage3245]

Sounds like some of the other movies shouldn't be treated as canon either.

That's all I'm getting out of this thread so far, yeah.

I see no problem as treating these other movies as being part of their own continuity, because clearly there are issues with trying to force Meta Cooler movie into a series of canonical events.

 

[Robo432343]

That's all I'm getting out of this thread so far, yeah.

I see no problem as treating these other movies as being part of their own continuity, because clearly there are issues with trying to force Meta Cooler movie into a series of canonical events.

they are saying, "Go make a CRT to change that or leave"

which is literally a non argument

 

[Chariot190]

What rules? We treat all the movies as canon now

The "guides and supplementary stuff is only used if not contradicted" is a pretty big one.

None of the contradictions in the Metal Cooler are as egregious as Tree of Might or Fusion Reborn.

Legit doesn't matter. Fusion Reborn only gets a pass because GT forces it to be canon, fortunately, the **** ups and the scaling aren't effected by it because Fusion Reborn has direct statements that enables direct scaling inspite of the impossible dumb as shit placement like Goku mentioning Buu by name and saying he used SSJ3 against him.

We don't pretend that Goku was throwing hands with Pikkon while he was supposed to be on the world of the kai's though.

Even the objectively canon ones like Garlic Jr. and the first Cooler Movie are filled with plot holes.

Probably, but being objectively canon and being "I feel like this is canon", ain't the same. And, again, feels like everyone keeps ignoring this, being canon, doesn't mean it can't be riddled with plot holes, contradictions and more.
Normally this wouldn't matter, it begins to matter when you want to make stuff up to handwave the fuckys to list a big number on a nerd forum because...?

No normal viewer is pretending they fit perfectly, and then pretending they fit perfectly to have them scale to stuff that legit doesn't happen within the movie's premise. That isn't the same as Buu being used to scale Janemba when Buu is mentioned by name as being like the same strength, that isn't the same as Cooler scaling to SSJ1 Goku. We're trying to scale Meta-Cooler to a Goku who very blatantly didn't go in the time chamber yet, because the timeline said he did, except that is literally one of the very contradictions at play here.

It'd be like scaling Super 13 to FPSSJ1 Goku, except Goku didn't go FPSSJ1. Going by statements Super 13 outscals Meta-Cooler anyway, oh but Super 13 doesn't take place in the 10 days right? Think about the implications of that, I don't think I need to elaborate the blatant issues.

Except that is the exact point: Tree of Might has hundreds of tons of contradictions to the time it takes place yet we not only consider the movie canon but we place the characters' at the power level they were during the main canon's time and of the movie itself. You would have to make a CRT to remove that.

Nobody said it wasn't canon, stop strawmanning. Also two wrongs don't make a right.

Oh, so same here?

Nope because Grade 4 is animated differently, and also Vegeta did so at the end of the 10 days, yet this takes place before Broly?
Also I mean, Gohan literally being pre-time chamber is kind of problematic when scaling Meta-Cooler to post-time chamber shit.

And what does Krillin have to do with literally anything? This is just some crappy reasoning as he literally provides almost nothing substantial to disprove this movie's placement. Provide a real argument.

I did, it doesn't have to be substantial, a **** up is a **** up.

Except it's not about you,

Do not care, I'm voicing my disagreement.

it's about what "we" think, and we think Broly makes sense and is canon to the Anime. If you disagree with it, go make a CRT.

Who is "we"? Stop being cringe dude. Don't throw other people under the bus because you actively want to make-believe.

Also, I could make a CRT, hell I very well might, but that means fuckall here because we're talking about Meta-Cooler. It doesn't matter if other shit is accepted, this isn't, you're trying to get it accepted, and I'm arguing against it.
You're getting ahead of yourself don't you think?

I literally explained most of them with the movie's official placement and what we currently treat of the movies, read again.

You didn't explain a single thing, you actively gave reasoning why it doesn't make sense, and just went on to say why other movies bad too.

That, is not an explanation, or at least, not the explanation you need to give, it's an explanation sure, a counterintuitive one.

Movies like Tree of Might and Lord Slug all have layers of extra dumbness to them and yet here we are, treating them as canon. If they can be canon and be fine with the time they're supposed to take place, why not this?

Yep, they're dumb too, and?
Being canon, and not being riddled with bullshit, are not the same thing.

If you can't even understand that difference, you're actual a lost cause to be debating with.

Also, again, again, again, fifty wrongs don't make a right. You're an active detriment to our wiki at this point if you're willing to be explicitly ignorant of issues while admitting such problems exist, yet going through with it anyway. Like I can not stress enough how backwards this line of thinking is, you know it's bad, why are you arguing for it?

So...what the Daizenshuu does for the rest of the movies?

Yeah. And?
A presumptious timeline placement isn't a hard stated fact, especially when said fact is subject to numerous inconsistencies.

Said inconsitencies that make scaling impossible.

Less that and more so "We currently treat the movies and anime as one in the same timeline and the Dainzenshuu is the most reliable source about the movies' placement thus we scale the movie characters to the placement of the movies within the main canon despite all the contradictions."

Being canon does not make something exempt from scrutiny, contradictions, inconsistencies, and so forth. Have you ever picked up a comic? Or any piece of media beyond DBZ? This ain't even uncommon dude, we do it with other stuff all the time.

Regardless of such a thing, being canon, and what you're actually proposing, have nothing to do with each other, stop conflating and strawmanning your very own CRT.

Make a CRT then to make them non canonical again.

I could, I should, and probably would. But, that has no bearing on your currently unaccepted CRT.

And Daizenshuu isn't contradicted in any case here,

let alone how even the movies where we have a good idea where they take place have contradictions yet we are still fine with scaling them to the time they take place (i.e Broly and Cooler)

I legitimately hate how every argument you've presented is unironically "this dumb, so this also dumb is ok".

Like legit, no cap, if you know shit is dumb, stop trying to wank.

Dainzenshuu 6 says it takes place during Cell Games, no futher is needed really.

Explain why Gohan is literally a year younger than he should without cope arguments.

Also, Grade 4 and Grade 1 are pretty much identical

Yeah and so is SSJ1 and SSJ2. Except ya know, the stats, you're trying to scale him too.

If it's perfectly canon, then this can be so as well, as dumb as it sounds.

Holy shit dude, nobody is saying it isn't canon. How do you strawman a argument after being told that isn't even the case like 5 times.

I do realize that, and there's pretty much nothing different between Meta Cooler and the other movies in terms of timeline placement and contradictions

Five fucktrillionoplex wrongs don't make a right.
Also Wrath of the Dragon is perfectly fine with zero fuckys

You should because we treat these as canon. Yet again, If you disagree, go make a thread proving why it's bull.

Thing is: Movies 1 and Movies 5 are objectively canon and they still feature plot holes that either result of the time they were made or from stupid crap.

Despite all of these, they are accurately placed by the Dainzenshuu at the times they most likely take place at.

You REALLY don't know what the word accurate means do you? If it was accurate, there wouldn't BE any contraidctions. You're just saying words now.

It's worth mentioning that the movies are mostly intertwined with the Anime for their releases and plot (Meta Cooler was released shortly after Vegeta revealed SSJ against Android 19, Bojack was released shortly after Goku decides to stay dead, Cooler was released after a part of Goku and Freeza's fight, etc),

Yes, for marketing and mirroring purposes. They were a bi-annual showing at film expos.

despite that the Dainzenshuu still places something like Movie 5 and 6 during the 3 year timeskip and Cell Games respectively.

They could place that shit in the Saiyan Saga and it wouldn't change the contradictions.

So does Broly.

I do not care. Literally every single argument you've made without fail is a whataboutism, I do not care about Broly, Cooler, ************* TAPION. The thread is about why Meta-Cooler MUST be placed in a specific spot of the timeline, and why being there MUST mean he scales to a thing he did not even fight.

I'm not "wanking",

"Meta-Cooler is infinitely universal because he fought Grade 4 SSJ1 Goku (he didn't), because a contraidictory guide scan (so it's already discarded) says the movie takes place in a specific timeframe (it doesn't really, it's just presuming it does), and thus must have fought Goku in a specific form".

i'm simply using the standards we currently use for the Toei Anime's scaling and what official primary source guidebooks say to accurately scale these characters.

We accept shit as canon, we don't accept shit like Meta-Cooler is placed here, YOU need to get that accepted hence the very thread. We also don't accept impossible contradictions even if the general shit is canon. Like nobody is saying Goku is dead and Vegeta's deaths actually line up like that despite Fusion Reborn's unfortunate canonicity. Canonicity and being some flawless consistent scalable work, are not the same thing.

If you don't prove that Meta Cooler and other movies aren't canon and make a CRT until then, Meta Cooler taking place during the last stakes of the Cell Arc is perfectly fine.

I don't gotta prove any of that, burden of proof is on you to prove Meta-Cooler fought Grade 4 Goku (you pointed out having forms and them using said forms in movies don't always happen, we can see he didn't fight Grade 4 anyway), you need to prove the guide scan presuming a timeline placement (not even a hard statement) isn't contradicted (it is) and if it is, its placement and the scan's reliability is instantly tossed because rules, aka, accepted standards given you like to cling to that, say supplementary material can only be used if it isn't contradicted, Meta Cooler being there is contradicted, ergo. It's like you think people saying contradictions equates to non-canon, and because we accept other dumb stuff, we should accept all dumb stuff, when our goal should be to accept the least amount of it, not as much as we can.
You legit need to rethink how you go about wiki work, the fact you're fine being deliberately ignorant and handwaving stuff, solely because of whataboutisms, is actively harmful to what we're intended to do.

I disagree, end of, not continuing this back and forth with someone who's goal is big number instead of actual accuracy, whether or not others agree ain't my concern, but goddamn I'd be dissapointed if anyone does. Now excuse me while I go gather shit to remind people why guide stuff is only used when not-contradicted.

 

[Chariot190]

also id like to double remind dudes that it literally can't be in the 10 days, we get filler episodes of the 10 days in toei, the entire 10 days is accounted for, we even get to see tao pai pai multiple times, and stuff like Goku doing a dumb ring puzzle took like a whole day and night.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Absolutely agree with Chariot here.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

The "guides and supplementary stuff is only used if not contradicted" is a pretty big one.

Something which isn't happening here.

Legit doesn't matter. Fusion Reborn only gets a pass because GT forces it to be canon, fortunately, the **** ups and the scaling aren't effected by it because Fusion Reborn has direct statements that enables direct scaling inspite of the impossible dumb as shit placement like Goku mentioning Buu by name and saying he used SSJ3 against him.

Neither does Meta Cooler affect any of the scaling presented.

Probably, but being objectively canon and being "I feel like this is canon", ain't the same. And, again, feels like everyone keeps ignoring this, being canon, doesn't mean it can't be riddled with plot holes, contradictions and more.

Tree of Might is also riddled with contradictions/plot holes and yet we perfectly treat it normally. Meta Cooler should be no different

It'd be like scaling Super 13 to FPSSJ1 Goku, except Goku didn't go FPSSJ1. Going by statements Super 13 outscals Meta-Cooler anyway, oh but Super 13 doesn't take place in the 10 days right? Think about the implications of that, I don't think I need to elaborate the blatant issues.

Either

A) Treat Super Android 13 as a massive ass power up

Or

B) Treat these statements as bull

Nobody said it wasn't canon, stop strawmanning.

I'm not even saying we are saying they aren't canon Mr. Strawman, my point is that we currently accept all the movies as anime canon and thus Meta Cooler is canon and thus all the contradictions it has can be excused

Nope because Grade 4 is animated differently,

They are pretty much identical x2

I did, it doesn't have to be substantial, a ** up is a ** up.

Except you didn't

Who is "we"? Stop being cringe dude. Don't throw other people under the bus because you actively want to make-believe.

The wiki, where we currently accept all the movies riddled with contradictions as canon and their contradictions can be excused

You didn't explain a single thing, you actively gave reasoning why it doesn't make sense, and just went on to say why other movies bad too.

My explanation is that "if we accept this, there should be no problem in accepting this too as there is zero problem via the same logic"

Yep, they're dumb too, and?
Being canon, and not being riddled with bullshit, are not the same thing.

Doesn't matter.

If you can't even understand that difference, you're actual a lost cause to be debating with.

I dunno, are you? Because it doesn't even seen you can actually grasp how we currently treat the scaling and canonicity of these movies.

Also, again, again, again, fifty wrongs don't make a right.

Same logic, thus, perfectly fine.

You're an active detriment to our wiki at this point if you're willing to be explicitly ignorant of issues while admitting such problems exist, yet going through with it anyway. Like I can not stress enough how backwards this line of thinking is, you know it's bad, why are you arguing for it?

If this was any other verse this would be understandable, but this is Dragon Ball Toei We're dealing with where these movies are currently treated as canon and are scaled to the supposed time they take place despite the contradictions. Meta Cooler has contradictions to the Cell Games yet it's stil canon and it still happened

Yeah. And?
A presumptious timeline placement isn't a hard stated fact, especially when said fact is subject to numerous inconsistencies.

Inconsistencies that are all summed up to only one (even then a relatively innocent one) if we take the Daizenshuu accurately (which is what we should)

Being canon does not make something exempt from scrutiny, contradictions, inconsistencies, and so forth. Have you ever picked up a comic? Or any piece of media beyond DBZ? This ain't even uncommon dude, we do it with other stuff all the time.

Read above.

You REALLY don't know what the word accurate means do you?

I do, do you? Because you are refusing to read a primary source out of a contradiction despite the fact that the movies we know where they take place (with the Dainzenshuu agreeing with us) still have contradictions to the supposed time they take place.

I could, I should, and probably would. But, that has no bearing on your currently unaccepted CRT

Except over 98% of your arguments here stem from the fact you don't want Meta Cooler to happen where an offici guidebook places it due to it's contradictions yet we still do it fine with the other movies despite them ALSO having their own contradictions. And i've already explained why it's all bunk.

Explain why Gohan is literally a year younger than he should without cope arguments.

Gohan in the Cooler movie looks younger despite the fact it's also during the 3 year timeskip. Explain that then.

You REALLY don't know what the word accurate means do you? If it was accurate, there wouldn't BE any contraidctions [sic]

Which...is literally what happens with most of the other movies. Prove Broly doesn't take place during the Cell Games out of the fact that Goku is in Base Form, i will be waiting.

I do not care. Literally every single argument you've made without fail is a whataboutism, I do not care about Broly, Cooler, ************* TAPION. The thread is about why Meta-Cooler MUST be placed in a specific spot of the timeline, and why being there MUST mean he scales to a thing he did not even fight.

Not even regarding the Dainzenshuu, things like the markless gi and Dende being god (both of which you didn't tried to disprove btw) can only absolutely happen during the Cell games and thus prove this movie takes place during that.

They could place that shit in the Saiyan Saga and it wouldn't change the contradictions.

Oh cmon the writers aren't that dumb, neither here too.

I don't gotta prove any of that, burden of proof is on you to prove Meta-Cooler fought Grade 4 Goku (you pointed out having forms and them using said forms in movies don't always happen, we can see he didn't fight Grade 4 anyway),

I pretty much don't need to considering the fact that the Dainzenshuu and what we see in the movie itself clearly implies Cooler and fought and assclapped a Grade 4 SSJ Goku, thus High Univeral and Infinite speed.

If Goku was using Grade 4 against Broly yet started in Base Form, what even is wrong with Cooler's case?

you need to prove the guide scan presuming a timeline placement (not even a hard statement) isn't contradicted (it is)

So... something i literally did but you seem to ignore for your own agenda with the same arguments i've already trashed?

You legit need to rethink how you go about wiki work, the fact you're fine being deliberately ignorant and handwaving stuff, solely because of whataboutisms, is actively harmful to what we're intended to do.

I'm literally using the stuff we agree with for the movie scaling and anime lmao. If you legit think this is being "ignorant" when it's based on what we currently accept without problem, yet again, go and make a CRT.

Honestly many things here would be easier if we didn't accept all the movies as canon

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

That is honestly one of the weirdest arguments I've seen. Somehow the contradictions make it so that the Cell Games Goku and Vegeta Cooler fought are actually their android saga counterparts? With this same logic, the Goku and Gohan in the Broly Movie are actually from before they went to the Time Chamber since they're not constantly in Super Saiyan, duh. Oh, and the Turtles movie also takes place before the Saiyan Saga, how else would the Z-Fighters still be alive? Guess we should upgrade them all to High 4-C. Same thing with the Lord Slug movie, Bio-Broly, and so on.

These contradictions don't make the movies non-canon nooooooo they're actually all 100% canon, but we can't trust the Daizenshuu when it comes to placing them chronologically, no that's too far. It's literally just having your cake and eating it too.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Oh, and the Turtles movie also takes place before the Saiyan Saga,

 

[AwkguyDB]

Imma say this. It’s clear the Toei Team pulled from the Manga at the time and made a movie based on where it was in the story. I think we do have to give the OP credence because of the implications of what Dende being on earth means.

- Dende being on earth specifically means Kami is gone due to the fusion between him and Piccolo and Goku’s realization that there’s no dragon balls.

- Goku also brought Dende to earth in the anime as a reaction to Perfect Cell and the destruction he’s caused during the 10 days. This is seen in both the anime and manga.

- Elder Mori sensed Perfect Cell from Namek which is why he agreed to give a guardian.

- Vegeta being a Super Saiyan alongside Goku destroys any placement for anything pre Androids with only Goku recovering from the Heart Virus and gathering the Saiyans together for RoSaT training being the only time they share screen time.

- thus the Daizenshuu places it in the 10 days which is where Broly would be placed as well, which is where High 3-A starts.

- The symbolless gi only happens after Goku awakens from the Heart Virus

- Goku’s SSJ looks really is a non issue since Grade 1 and 4 are literally just the first Super Saiyan form regardless. Him being in Base is a nonissue too because of the Broly Movie.

This all just comes down to the production team not having enough knowledge of where the overall anime was going because the manga got as far as the Cell games at this point with the Cell Games themselves being in production months later for the anime.

Based on how we treat Dragon Ball this really isn’t that much of an issue and we treat this like Garlic Junior and Fusion Reborn which is blatantly inconsistent but has important plot narratives for the show in the future. Unless someone makes another thread to separate the movies yet again.

 

[AwkguyDB]

It’s really weird why Toei decided to use a plot point further along in the Manga’s time placement as a sent up for a movie when they were so early in the android saga

 

[LordTracer]

I strongly agree with Chariot. I’m seeing all these contradictions for the other movies being brought up as if that somehow helps TRoC… but all it really means is that some of these other movies shouldn’t be canon either.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

High Universal Cell Saga Goku.. jesus

 

[AwkguyDB]

Alright I already see where this is going

Before anyone else goes on about contradictions in movies please take the time to read accepted blog

This has already been addressed numerous times now and we done the the whole canonization and de-canonization of certain movies which was later overturned.

Until the accepted blog is overturned, If the Daizenshuu 6 places this in the Cell Games it needs to be scaled to such. The evidence of it being in the Cell Games is literally in the movie. Does it make sense no, but that’s not for us to decide. Even if you did say this was not Canon it’s still going to have to receive that said scaling.

The worst case scenario is that this movie scales to the Toei mainline but the mainline doesn’t scale from this.(something we did for Eradicate the Saiyans until this was accepted.)

So enough of the contradictions stuff.

As long as the Daizenshuu 6 statement holds up key parts of the narrative the rest can be looked over as issues with the production team.