Meta Cooler upgrade?

[Chariot190]

As long as the Daizenshuu 6 statement holds up key parts of the narrative the rest can be looked over as issues with the production team.

Remember folks, guides can only be used if they don't contradict the source material. If the source material itself is a contradiction, well then goddamn.

Sucks to suck, but it doesn't work. You can't just make shit up, literally pretend it fits and works and this or that, when it don't.

If daizenshuu said Broly took place in the Freeza Saga, would you accept it? I'd pray not because it'd be wrong, it doesn't matter if the guide says so, the guide is wrong. Guides can be wrong, guides often are wrong, it's why we literally have a rule about supplementary material being used.

You're trying to argue the keyparts of the narrative should be fine if it holds up? Ok. But that isn't what's happening, you're trying to argue off specific scaling details due to various nuanced details that may or may not work due to contradictory evidence. That is not the same.

DBZ isn't special, really wish dudes would stop acting like it is. Anyway, yeah, shit's ******, guess I'm making a CRT at some point, yadda yadda.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As long as the Daizenshuu 6 statement holds up key parts of the narrative the rest can be looked over as issues with the production team.

But that's exactly it. It doesn't hold up based on what we directly see in the film.

 

[RedReaper616]

The "guides and supplementary stuff is only used if not contradicted" is a pretty big one.

Legit doesn't matter. Fusion Reborn only gets a pass because GT forces it to be canon, fortunately, the **** ups and the scaling aren't effected by it because Fusion Reborn has direct statements that enables direct scaling inspite of the impossible dumb as shit placement like Goku mentioning Buu by name and saying he used SSJ3 against him.

We don't pretend that Goku was throwing hands with Pikkon while he was supposed to be on the world of the kai's though.

Probably, but being objectively canon and being "I feel like this is canon", ain't the same. And, again, feels like everyone keeps ignoring this, being canon, doesn't mean it can't be riddled with plot holes, contradictions and more.
Normally this wouldn't matter, it begins to matter when you want to make stuff up to handwave the fuckys to list a big number on a nerd forum because...?

No normal viewer is pretending they fit perfectly, and then pretending they fit perfectly to have them scale to stuff that legit doesn't happen within the movie's premise. That isn't the same as Buu being used to scale Janemba when Buu is mentioned by name as being like the same strength, that isn't the same as Cooler scaling to SSJ1 Goku. We're trying to scale Meta-Cooler to a Goku who very blatantly didn't go in the time chamber yet, because the timeline said he did, except that is literally one of the very contradictions at play here.

It'd be like scaling Super 13 to FPSSJ1 Goku, except Goku didn't go FPSSJ1. Going by statements Super 13 outscals Meta-Cooler anyway, oh but Super 13 doesn't take place in the 10 days right? Think about the implications of that, I don't think I need to elaborate the blatant issues.

As the guy who literally wrote the blog, this is how I always intended it. Obviously there are contradictions, but they’re forced to be canon (as I went to great lengths to prove), and thus I always perceived these to be reconciled with the source material and supplemental information.

For example, despite the fact Dende is on Earth, Gohan in the film is actually still 5-6, and Pre-HTC. Meaning whilst the Daizenshuu does state in happens within the Ten Days, like other forced canon Toei Films (Dead Zone, Fusion Reborn, Wrath of the Dragon), we try our best to ignore and reconcile them into the best form we can, acknowledging that it’s flawed, not perfect, and in an ideal world not something we’d have to do at all.

Chariot isn’t even claiming to de-canonize the film if I’m reading correctly—He’s literally just pointing out that trying to scale Metal Cooler in such a way is dubious because it relies on the specific factors we’ve elected to exclude due to us acknowledging they’re nonsense. In effect, they’re outliers of chronology, and like we do with outliers in scaling, we exclude them. Not utilize them to build up a new scaling.

(EDIT: And, in effect, utilizing them then opens up the issue of them being considered canon to begin with, since we are then validating these contradictions.)

In that same way, I disagree with upgrading Metal Cooler, but obviously still stand by my blog and the efforts I went to gathering as much information I could.

 

[AwkguyDB]

So we either ignore Dende being on Earth or we ignore Gohan’s age is what I’m getting at this point

Gohan’s age seems to be the minor detail compared to Dende being on earth as the latter is what the movie hinges on.

 

[RedReaper616]

So we either ignore Dende being on Earth or we ignore Gohan’s age is what I’m getting at this point

Correct. And I’d argue we’re intended to side with the information most supported by the films information—The actual release, its pamphlet, its film comic, and relevant supplementary Information (Daizenshuu, Chouzenshuu, Dragon Book, etc.) that we can use (though some will have to be dismissed).

In this case, it seems to be intended that the Goku and Vegeta of the film are Android Saga. Whereas Broly’s version of the characters are unabashedly Cell Saga, and Fusion Reborn are Buu Saga.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Correct. And I’d argue we’re intended to side with the information most supported by the films information—The actual release, its pamphlet, its film comic, and relevant supplementary Information (Daizenshuu, Chouzenshuu, Dragon Book, etc.) that we can use (though some will have to be dismissed).

In this case, it seems to be intended that the Goku and Vegeta of the film are Android Saga. Whereas Broly’s version of the characters are unabashedly Cell Saga, and Fusion Reborn are Buu Saga.

listen 100% would make sense and agree with this but I don’t see why we can’t ignore Gohan’s age as the movie doesn’t even focus on that plot point. I mean we ignore Gohan’s tail in Cooler’s Return despite it never growing back in mainline

Compared to Dende who is essential to the movies whole plot

 

[RedReaper616]

listen 100% would make sense and agree with this but I don’t see why we can’t ignore Gohan’s age as the movie doesn’t even focus on that plot point. I mean we ignore Gohan’s tail in Cooler’s Return despite it never growing back in mainline

Compared to Dende who is essential to the movies whole plot

Personally I think it’s an inexact science, so I don’t have an easy answer. For example, I don’t think you should scale Metal Cooler to “above SSJ Teen Gohan,” because that didn’t exist in the Cooler film. Nor do any ties to that exist.

So, if we were to really knuckle down and say TRoC takes place within those ten days, given the clear intent to have Android Saga versions of the characters, I think it makes more sense to say that it occurred at this point in time, but the characters demonstrative level of power and existence are different/contradictory (they were sandbagging and got weird haircuts?), and thus Cooler only scales above to what they showed (Android Saga) not the explicit era of time.

It’s also just outright more simple to say the Guidebook is wrong (supplemental information to the canon) than the source material is wrong (even in this case where it has demonstrably erred) because it is much more easy to reconcile the errors with less contradictory information, not more.

 

[Nierre]

glad reaper joined the thread. i wanted to hear his thoughts since he created the blog afterall, and is very knowledgeable on toei, so I trust his judgement here. FRA

 

[TyranoDoom30]

So we either ignore Dende being on Earth or we ignore Gohan’s age is what I’m getting at this point

Gohan’s age seems to be the minor detail compared to Dende being on earth as the latter is what the movie hinges on.

Even then, as previously mentioned, Gohan in Cooler movie looks younger than what he is supposed to be look like during the 3 Year timeskip. He looks straight out of Early Freeza Arc, so..

 

[RedReaper616]

glad reaper joined the thread. i wanted to hear his thoughts since he created the blog afterall, and is very knowledgeable on toei, so I trust his judgement here. FRA

I don't know about very knowledgable. In fact, most of what I know comes down to the fact I've literally just recently poured of the material repetitively to try and collect as much information as I can for my blog, GT Goku Profile, and more. (For example, there's 3 Maeda/Koyama/Matsui stories that are canon to the Anime relegated to Film Comic extra information in Jump Gold Selection 4, Jump Gold Selection 5, and the Bardock Special Film Comic, initially published by Weekly Shonen Jump. They are In the Name of Piccolo Daimao, High Pride! Saiyan Prince Vegeta, and Lonely Future Warrior!! Trunks. Supervised by Toei and Toriyama. I did not know these things existed until incredibly recently.)

 

[ByAsura]

We can establish that Vegeta is roughly equal to Goku in base/Super Saiyan, since they take down the first Meta Cooler and overload the Big Gete Star together. Both of these factors are more essential to the plot of the film than Dende being Earth's Guardian.

Add to that, Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan forms have the same design, so somehow Goku hasn't mastered Super Saiyan in this film.

Pre-Time Chamber seems a safer bet given the scaling and transformations.

 

[RedReaper616]

We can establish that Vegeta is roughly equal to Goku in base/Super Saiyan, since they take down the first Meta Cooler and overload the Big Gete Star. Both of these factors are more essential to the plot of the film than Dende being Earth's Guardian.

That's a really good point. Post-HTC, Goku and Vegeta weren't comparable at all. Goku at merely 50% was beyond Vegeta's wildest dreams. For it to take place in the ten days, Vegeta would have to be comparable to Goku, which just isn't possible. I hadn't even considered that. Huh. Kind of missed the forest for the trees, there.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm just realising that both of those things (and Goku being in base) are also true of the Broly movie, which unequivocally takes place during the Cell Games gap.

**** these films.

 

[RedReaper616]

I'm just realising that both of those things

I don't think this is the case. We're not told the power hierarchy between Goku and Vegeta at all in the Broly movie. (Nor is one shown, at least not in which they are comparable, since Vegeta is one shot whereas Goku can fight back a bit). Heck, based on the way Vegeta looks when he transforms, he appears to use Grade 2 (at least in the scene in which Broly transforms) and Goku is using Grade 4. Though perhaps my memory is flawed.

EDIT: This reminds me, I forgot to index Goku reacting to an attack in his sleep (from Broly) for his instinctive reactions...

 

[ByAsura]

I guess so, since Piccolo also didn't get iced by Broly.

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean, Trunks is also pretty clearly Post-HTC, despite wearing his jacket. I guess he only wears Saiyan Armor for Bug-Related Threats.

 

[RedReaper616]

So, I think it's safe to say that the Metal Cooler scaling is rejected. My question becomes, given how many are now concerned with the fact the films are accepted as canon, do any disagree with the points the blog brings up? I mostly ask to handle any questions now, rather than later. I recognize this may open up the floor to having it overturned, but I strongly feel as if my blog is steadfast. Especially since we know for certain Fusion Reborn took place in GT, which has the history of all of Z-Anime and Movies within it, and that GT's movie appearances (though only Cooler is seen I believe) was also fully intentional, as part of "The Past Enemies of Dragon Ball." Meaning that, thanks to Fusion Reborn, (and Super 17), no matter what, (at least in my eyes), all the films are canon to the Toei Anime Continuity (in some fashion).

 

[Omegabronic]

So, I think it's safe to say that the Metal Cooler scaling is rejected. My question becomes, given how many are now concerned with the fact the films are accepted as canon, do any disagree with the points the blog brings up? I mostly ask to handle any questions now, rather than later. I recognize this may open up the floor to having it overturned, but I strongly feel as if my blog is steadfast. Especially since we know for certain Fusion Reborn took place in GT, which has the history of all of Z-Anime and Movies within it, and that GT's movie appearances (though only Cooler is seen I believe) was also fully intentional, as part of "The Past Enemies of Dragon Ball." Meaning that, thanks to Fusion Reborn, (and Super 17), no matter what, (at least in my eyes), all the films are canon to the Toei Anime Continuity (in some fashion).

.........but if the movies have all the supposed massive contradictions said here in this thread, wouldn't this make a case for Fusion reborn to be as contradictory for including them, making FR itself not canom due to contradictions?

 

[RedReaper616]

.........but if the movies have all the supposed massive contradictions said here in this thread, wouldn't this make a case for Fusion reborn to be as contradictory for including them, making FR itself not canom due to contradictions?

Not anymore than other Forced Canon material like Cooler's Revenge (happens in "the 3 years of peace"), Dead Zone (makes the entirety of the Raditz Saga make no sense and has a wish that fudges the timeline), and Wrath of the Dragon (happens in the era of peace timeskip and has the Son Family meeting the Vegeta family, which is in contradiction of the fact they hadn't met since the Buu Saga.)

EDIT: It should also be noted that the GT Dragon Book saying the films are intended to be canonized as part of their history through Super 17 further backs up how Toei's version of the Dragon World is at least INTENDED to be connected in the way that is currently accepted, even though it is contradictory.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That entire discussion is for a different thread.

Since this is rejected I will be closing this now.