Meta Cooler upgrade?

[Chariot190]

As long as the Daizenshuu 6 statement holds up key parts of the narrative the rest can be looked over as issues with the production team.

Remember folks, guides can only be used if they don't contradict the source material. If the source material itself is a contradiction, well then goddamn.

Sucks to suck, but it doesn't work. You can't just make shit up, literally pretend it fits and works and this or that, when it don't.

If daizenshuu said Broly took place in the Freeza Saga, would you accept it? I'd pray not because it'd be wrong, it doesn't matter if the guide says so, the guide is wrong. Guides can be wrong, guides often are wrong, it's why we literally have a rule about supplementary material being used.

You're trying to argue the keyparts of the narrative should be fine if it holds up? Ok. But that isn't what's happening, you're trying to argue off specific scaling details due to various nuanced details that may or may not work due to contradictory evidence. That is not the same.

DBZ isn't special, really wish dudes would stop acting like it is. Anyway, yeah, shit's ******, guess I'm making a CRT at some point, yadda yadda.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As long as the Daizenshuu 6 statement holds up key parts of the narrative the rest can be looked over as issues with the production team.

But that's exactly it. It doesn't hold up based on what we directly see in the film.

 

[RedReaper616]

The "guides and supplementary stuff is only used if not contradicted" is a pretty big one.

Legit doesn't matter. Fusion Reborn only gets a pass because GT forces it to be canon, fortunately, the **** ups and the scaling aren't effected by it because Fusion Reborn has direct statements that enables direct scaling inspite of the impossible dumb as shit placement like Goku mentioning Buu by name and saying he used SSJ3 against him.

We don't pretend that Goku was throwing hands with Pikkon while he was supposed to be on the world of the kai's though.

Probably, but being objectively canon and being "I feel like this is canon", ain't the same. And, again, feels like everyone keeps ignoring this, being canon, doesn't mean it can't be riddled with plot holes, contradictions and more.
Normally this wouldn't matter, it begins to matter when you want to make stuff up to handwave the fuckys to list a big number on a nerd forum because...?

No normal viewer is pretending they fit perfectly, and then pretending they fit perfectly to have them scale to stuff that legit doesn't happen within the movie's premise. That isn't the same as Buu being used to scale Janemba when Buu is mentioned by name as being like the same strength, that isn't the same as Cooler scaling to SSJ1 Goku. We're trying to scale Meta-Cooler to a Goku who very blatantly didn't go in the time chamber yet, because the timeline said he did, except that is literally one of the very contradictions at play here.

It'd be like scaling Super 13 to FPSSJ1 Goku, except Goku didn't go FPSSJ1. Going by statements Super 13 outscals Meta-Cooler anyway, oh but Super 13 doesn't take place in the 10 days right? Think about the implications of that, I don't think I need to elaborate the blatant issues.

As the guy who literally wrote the blog, this is how I always intended it. Obviously there are contradictions, but they’re forced to be canon (as I went to great lengths to prove), and thus I always perceived these to be reconciled with the source material and supplemental information.

For example, despite the fact Dende is on Earth, Gohan in the film is actually still 5-6, and Pre-HTC. Meaning whilst the Daizenshuu does state in happens within the Ten Days, like other forced canon Toei Films (Dead Zone, Fusion Reborn, Wrath of the Dragon), we try our best to ignore and reconcile them into the best form we can, acknowledging that it’s flawed, not perfect, and in an ideal world not something we’d have to do at all.

Chariot isn’t even claiming to de-canonize the film if I’m reading correctly—He’s literally just pointing out that trying to scale Metal Cooler in such a way is dubious because it relies on the specific factors we’ve elected to exclude due to us acknowledging they’re nonsense. In effect, they’re outliers of chronology, and like we do with outliers in scaling, we exclude them. Not utilize them to build up a new scaling.

(EDIT: And, in effect, utilizing them then opens up the issue of them being considered canon to begin with, since we are then validating these contradictions.)

In that same way, I disagree with upgrading Metal Cooler, but obviously still stand by my blog and the efforts I went to gathering as much information I could.

 

[AwkguyDB]

So we either ignore Dende being on Earth or we ignore Gohan’s age is what I’m getting at this point

Gohan’s age seems to be the minor detail compared to Dende being on earth as the latter is what the movie hinges on.

 

[RedReaper616]

So we either ignore Dende being on Earth or we ignore Gohan’s age is what I’m getting at this point

Correct. And I’d argue we’re intended to side with the information most supported by the films information—The actual release, its pamphlet, its film comic, and relevant supplementary Information (Daizenshuu, Chouzenshuu, Dragon Book, etc.) that we can use (though some will have to be dismissed).

In this case, it seems to be intended that the Goku and Vegeta of the film are Android Saga. Whereas Broly’s version of the characters are unabashedly Cell Saga, and Fusion Reborn are Buu Saga.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Correct. And I’d argue we’re intended to side with the information most supported by the films information—The actual release, its pamphlet, its film comic, and relevant supplementary Information (Daizenshuu, Chouzenshuu, Dragon Book, etc.) that we can use (though some will have to be dismissed).

In this case, it seems to be intended that the Goku and Vegeta of the film are Android Saga. Whereas Broly’s version of the characters are unabashedly Cell Saga, and Fusion Reborn are Buu Saga.

listen 100% would make sense and agree with this but I don’t see why we can’t ignore Gohan’s age as the movie doesn’t even focus on that plot point. I mean we ignore Gohan’s tail in Cooler’s Return despite it never growing back in mainline

Compared to Dende who is essential to the movies whole plot

 

[RedReaper616]

listen 100% would make sense and agree with this but I don’t see why we can’t ignore Gohan’s age as the movie doesn’t even focus on that plot point. I mean we ignore Gohan’s tail in Cooler’s Return despite it never growing back in mainline

Compared to Dende who is essential to the movies whole plot

Personally I think it’s an inexact science, so I don’t have an easy answer. For example, I don’t think you should scale Metal Cooler to “above SSJ Teen Gohan,” because that didn’t exist in the Cooler film. Nor do any ties to that exist.

So, if we were to really knuckle down and say TRoC takes place within those ten days, given the clear intent to have Android Saga versions of the characters, I think it makes more sense to say that it occurred at this point in time, but the characters demonstrative level of power and existence are different/contradictory (they were sandbagging and got weird haircuts?), and thus Cooler only scales above to what they showed (Android Saga) not the explicit era of time.

It’s also just outright more simple to say the Guidebook is wrong (supplemental information to the canon) than the source material is wrong (even in this case where it has demonstrably erred) because it is much more easy to reconcile the errors with less contradictory information, not more.

 

[Nierre]

glad reaper joined the thread. i wanted to hear his thoughts since he created the blog afterall, and is very knowledgeable on toei, so I trust his judgement here. FRA

 

[TyranoDoom30]

So we either ignore Dende being on Earth or we ignore Gohan’s age is what I’m getting at this point

Gohan’s age seems to be the minor detail compared to Dende being on earth as the latter is what the movie hinges on.

Even then, as previously mentioned, Gohan in Cooler movie looks younger than what he is supposed to be look like during the 3 Year timeskip. He looks straight out of Early Freeza Arc, so..

 

[RedReaper616]

glad reaper joined the thread. i wanted to hear his thoughts since he created the blog afterall, and is very knowledgeable on toei, so I trust his judgement here. FRA

I don't know about very knowledgable. In fact, most of what I know comes down to the fact I've literally just recently poured of the material repetitively to try and collect as much information as I can for my blog, GT Goku Profile, and more. (For example, there's 3 Maeda/Koyama/Matsui stories that are canon to the Anime relegated to Film Comic extra information in Jump Gold Selection 4, Jump Gold Selection 5, and the Bardock Special Film Comic, initially published by Weekly Shonen Jump. They are In the Name of Piccolo Daimao, High Pride! Saiyan Prince Vegeta, and Lonely Future Warrior!! Trunks. Supervised by Toei and Toriyama. I did not know these things existed until incredibly recently.)