What rules? We treat all the movies as canon now
The "guides and supplementary stuff is only used if not contradicted" is a pretty big one.
None of the contradictions in the Metal Cooler are as egregious as Tree of Might or Fusion Reborn.
Legit doesn't matter. Fusion Reborn only gets a pass because GT forces it to be canon, fortunately, the **** ups and the scaling aren't effected by it because Fusion Reborn has direct statements that enables direct scaling inspite of the impossible dumb as shit placement like Goku mentioning Buu by name and saying he used SSJ3 against him.
We don't pretend that Goku was throwing hands with Pikkon while he was supposed to be on the world of the kai's though.
Even the objectively canon ones like Garlic Jr. and the first Cooler Movie are filled with plot holes.
Probably, but being objectively canon and being "I feel like this is canon", ain't the same. And, again, feels like everyone keeps ignoring this, being canon, doesn't mean it can't be riddled with plot holes, contradictions and more.
Normally this wouldn't matter, it begins to matter when you want to make stuff up to handwave the fuckys to list a big number on a nerd forum because...?
No normal viewer is pretending they fit perfectly, and then pretending they fit perfectly to have them scale to stuff that legit doesn't happen within the movie's premise. That isn't the same as Buu being used to scale Janemba when Buu is mentioned by name as being like the same strength, that isn't the same as Cooler scaling to SSJ1 Goku. We're trying to scale Meta-Cooler to a Goku who very blatantly didn't go in the time chamber yet, because the timeline said he did, except that is literally one of the very contradictions at play here.
It'd be like scaling Super 13 to FPSSJ1 Goku, except Goku didn't go FPSSJ1. Going by statements Super 13 outscals Meta-Cooler anyway, oh but Super 13 doesn't take place in the 10 days right? Think about the implications of that, I don't think I need to elaborate the blatant issues.
Except that is the exact point: Tree of Might has hundreds of tons of contradictions to the time it takes place yet we not only consider the movie canon but we place the characters' at the power level they were during the main canon's time and of the movie itself. You would have to make a CRT to remove that.
Nobody said it wasn't canon, stop strawmanning. Also two wrongs don't make a right.
Nope because Grade 4 is animated differently, and also Vegeta did so at the end of the 10 days, yet this takes place before Broly?
Also I mean, Gohan literally being pre-time chamber is kind of problematic when scaling Meta-Cooler to post-time chamber shit.
And what does Krillin have to do with literally anything? This is just some crappy reasoning as he literally provides almost nothing substantial to disprove this movie's placement. Provide a real argument.
I did, it doesn't have to be substantial, a **** up is a **** up.
Except it's not about you,
Do not care, I'm voicing my disagreement.
it's about what "we" think, and we think Broly makes sense and is canon to the Anime. If you disagree with it, go make a CRT.
Who is "we"? Stop being cringe dude. Don't throw other people under the bus because you actively want to make-believe.
Also, I could make a CRT, hell I very well might, but that means fuckall here because we're talking about Meta-Cooler. It doesn't matter if other shit is accepted,
this isn't, you're trying to get it accepted, and I'm arguing against it.
You're getting ahead of yourself don't you think?
I literally explained most of them with the movie's official placement and what we currently treat of the movies, read again.
You didn't explain a single thing, you actively gave reasoning why it doesn't make sense, and just went on to say why other movies bad too.
That, is not an explanation, or at least, not the explanation you need to give, it's an explanation sure, a counterintuitive one.
Movies like Tree of Might and Lord Slug all have layers of extra dumbness to them and yet here we are, treating them as canon. If they can be canon and be fine with the time they're supposed to take place, why not this?
Yep, they're dumb too, and?
Being canon, and not being riddled with bullshit, are not the same thing.
If you can't even understand that difference, you're actual a lost cause to be debating with.
Also, again, again, again, fifty wrongs don't make a right. You're an active detriment to our wiki at this point if you're willing to be explicitly ignorant of issues while admitting such problems exist, yet going through with it anyway. Like I can not stress enough how backwards this line of thinking is, you know it's bad, why are you arguing for it?
So...what the Daizenshuu does for the rest of the movies?
Yeah. And?
A presumptious timeline placement isn't a hard stated fact, especially when said fact is subject to numerous inconsistencies.
Said inconsitencies that make scaling impossible.
Less that and more so "We currently treat the movies and anime as one in the same timeline and the Dainzenshuu is the most reliable source about the movies' placement thus we scale the movie characters to the placement of the movies within the main canon despite all the contradictions."
Being canon does not make something exempt from scrutiny, contradictions, inconsistencies, and so forth. Have you ever picked up a comic? Or any piece of media beyond DBZ? This ain't even uncommon dude, we do it with other stuff all the time.
Regardless of such a thing, being canon, and what you're actually proposing, have nothing to do with each other, stop conflating and strawmanning your very own CRT.
Make a CRT then to make them non canonical again.
I could, I should, and probably would. But, that has no bearing on your currently unaccepted CRT.
And Daizenshuu isn't contradicted in any case here,
let alone how even the movies where we have a good idea where they take place have contradictions yet we are still fine with scaling them to the time they take place (i.e Broly and Cooler)
I legitimately hate how every argument you've presented is unironically "this dumb, so this also dumb is ok".
Like legit, no cap, if you know shit is dumb, stop trying to wank.
Dainzenshuu 6 says it takes place during Cell Games, no futher is needed really.
Explain why Gohan is literally a year younger than he should without cope arguments.
Also, Grade 4 and Grade 1 are pretty much identical
Yeah and so is SSJ1 and SSJ2. Except ya know, the stats, you're trying to scale him too.
If it's perfectly canon, then this can be so as well, as dumb as it sounds.
Holy shit dude, nobody is saying it isn't canon. How do you strawman a argument after being told that isn't even the case like 5 times.
I do realize that, and there's pretty much nothing different between Meta Cooler and the other movies in terms of timeline placement and contradictions
Five fucktrillionoplex wrongs don't make a right.
Also Wrath of the Dragon is perfectly fine with zero fuckys
You should because we treat these as canon. Yet again, If you disagree, go make a thread proving why it's bull.
Thing is: Movies 1 and Movies 5 are objectively canon and they still feature plot holes that either result of the time they were made or from stupid crap.
Despite all of these, they are accurately placed by the Dainzenshuu at the times they most likely take place at.
You REALLY don't know what the word accurate means do you? If it was accurate, there wouldn't BE any contraidctions. You're just saying words now.
It's worth mentioning that the movies are mostly intertwined with the Anime for their releases and plot (Meta Cooler was released shortly after Vegeta revealed SSJ against Android 19, Bojack was released shortly after Goku decides to stay dead, Cooler was released after a part of Goku and Freeza's fight, etc),
Yes, for marketing and mirroring purposes. They were a bi-annual showing at film expos.
despite that the Dainzenshuu still places something like Movie 5 and 6 during the 3 year timeskip and Cell Games respectively.
They could place that shit in the Saiyan Saga and it wouldn't change the contradictions.
I do not care. Literally every single argument you've made without fail is a whataboutism, I do not care about Broly, Cooler, ************* TAPION. The thread is about why Meta-Cooler MUST be placed in a specific spot of the timeline, and why being there MUST mean he scales to a thing he did not even fight.
"Meta-Cooler is infinitely universal because he fought Grade 4 SSJ1 Goku (he didn't), because a contraidictory guide scan (so it's already discarded) says the movie takes place in a specific timeframe (it doesn't really, it's just presuming it does), and thus must have fought Goku in a specific form".
i'm simply using the standards we currently use for the Toei Anime's scaling and what official primary source guidebooks say to accurately scale these characters.
We accept shit as canon, we don't accept shit like Meta-Cooler is placed here, YOU need to get that accepted hence the very thread. We also don't accept impossible contradictions even if the general shit is canon. Like nobody is saying Goku is dead and Vegeta's deaths actually line up like that despite Fusion Reborn's unfortunate canonicity. Canonicity and being some flawless consistent scalable work, are not the same thing.
If you don't prove that Meta Cooler and other movies aren't canon and make a CRT until then, Meta Cooler taking place during the last stakes of the Cell Arc is perfectly fine.
I don't gotta prove
any of that, burden of proof is on you to prove Meta-Cooler fought Grade 4 Goku (you pointed out having forms and them using said forms in movies don't always happen, we can see he didn't fight Grade 4 anyway), you need to prove the guide scan presuming a timeline placement (not even a hard statement) isn't contradicted (it is) and if it is, its placement and the scan's reliability is instantly tossed because rules, aka, accepted standards given you like to cling to that, say supplementary material can only be used if it isn't contradicted, Meta Cooler being there is contradicted, ergo. It's like you think people saying contradictions equates to non-canon, and because we accept other dumb stuff, we should accept all dumb stuff, when our goal should be to accept the least amount of it, not as much as we can.
You legit need to rethink how you go about wiki work, the fact you're fine being deliberately ignorant and handwaving stuff, solely because of whataboutisms, is actively harmful to what we're intended to do.
I disagree, end of, not continuing this back and forth with someone who's goal is big number instead of actual accuracy, whether or not others agree ain't my concern, but goddamn I'd be dissapointed if anyone does. Now excuse me while I go gather shit to remind people why guide stuff is only used when not-contradicted.
