Meltlilith vs Yuuki Kagurazaka

[Elizhaa]

Also, the time stop likely gets countered by luck if it is that absolute

Luck, what type of luck?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Any servant with a luck stat of B or higher passively avoids/counters inevitable or close to inevitable out comes. They essentially overwrite fate to survive impossible to or highly unlikely to survive situations. The most famous example is that a servant with B luck or higher can survive Gae Bolg, which is a conceptual death curse that warps causality to always strike the heart; the spear literally piercing the heart before the lance is even thrust. Despite this, Servants with a high enough luck are capable of surviving it

If time stop really is that absolute or likely to land, then she will probably survive it

 

[Elizhaa]

I mean Yuuki has Fate Manipulation, better Causality Manipulation, Probability Manipulation so the likelyhood of his abilities hitting is high.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Pretty sure Melt should resist time manip anyway

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yuuki has Fate & Casuality Manip strong enough to boost his own stats, change the outcome on an event, and his probability manip can increase his chance of evasion or straight up nulling an opponents attack.

 

[Elizhaa]

Pretty sure Melt should resist time manip anyway

Tough, it is not on her profile so it is not applicable to the debate without a CRT. Even if it was there, Yuuki can used his Time Manipulation to boost his own speed which she cannot directly resist since it is not afffecting her but only Yuuki. This argument for Time Manipulation Speed Boost is something is learn for the same others thread for Medaka's Infinite Speed Boost.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I gotta double check if she has authority but if so then it was already accepted but just hasn't been added. There are several fate CRTs floating around that got accepted but just not done because of how many profiles they apply to

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, same with Slime. Hey, can we please close these until both CRT's are done?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, same with Slime. Hey, can we please close these until both CRT's are done?

The CRT is done, it just never got added.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well, I'm nearly done with Slime's CRT.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Alright, authority is added to her profile. Now her resistance to time manip sets her safe

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yuuki's CRT hasn't been accepted, and Yuuki's time manipulation works on people who have resistances to it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I mean Yuuki has Fate Manipulation, better Causality Manipulation, Probability Manipulation so the likelyhood of his abilities hitting is high.

She resists all of those things, and anyway, they can already dodge/survive attacks that manipulate all of those things to make make attacks completely inevitable

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Was there any mention that the "concept of time didn't exist at the time"? Because this BFR works against those who can timetravel as well. It's foolproof because you are sent to the "end of space-time" where the concept of time itself stopped existing. Since the concept of time itself no longer exists you can't travel through time anymore that's the whole point, basically.

She was already able to apply time to the lack of time within the far side of the moon with her law manip.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Can we at least like... Wait until my CRT is done, though? Jeez.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yuuki can also used his Time Control ability to speed blitz, if speed is equalized.
Time Control (Can control the flow of time with Time Control, which allows the user to stop time and move a 1 million times normal speed while in stopped time)

Yes, he does used it in character too especially since he fought against Rimuru who used in character for combat..

This gets countered by her authority, which grants her resistance to a cocktail of things including time manip

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I'm not super religious but Jesus Christ this is turning out bad for Yuuki.

Adding that authority was just a nail in an already closed coffin.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Like I said, can we wait until my CRT gets accepted before this gets started up again?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

What exactly his this CRT going to add?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Many things, such as resistances to Casuality Manipulation, Life & Death Manipulation, Durability Negation, etc. Just continuing on whilst there are things that are clearly missing from Yuuki's profile makes this rather unfair.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

But... How will those things actually change the outcome of the match? Melt already bypasses resistance with the melt virus, her main win condition, so adding more isn't gonna help him.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

There are arguments that I'd like to make, but again, they'd be a lot more credible if people could actually see these within the profile.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Uh, with Melt's CRT done she resists all of those.

 

[GLHF22]

I wonder with 8D manip why is she not in top 5 strongest character before a massive upgrade

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Fate has been downplayed likely because of Nasu's tendency to exaggerate and overstate in his writing, as well as the fact that we simply didn't catch the things before.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I wonder with 8D manip why is she not in top 5 strongest character before a massive upgrade

Because she isn't top tier in fate, just high tier. This thread was more to prove the point of Nasu supremacy in High 3-A.

In her previous tier she was up against Masadsverse characters with 1-A hax, some of which are passive. That's the reason fate character weren't really there

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Fate has been downplayed likely because of Nasu's tendency to exaggerate and overstate in his writing, as well as the fact that we simply didn't catch the things before.

It's also because in the previous tier she was in Nasu was up against things like Masadaverse, which have insane levels of 1-A hax

 

[John985]

Isnt more that the other servant on her tier is way above her? That doesnt make her weak it's just the others are just much more broken.

 

[GLHF22]

can she survive Yuuki Soul manip or Mind Hax?

his soul manip is aura based which work on atleast 150.000 people and his mind hax is talk based (he talk you, you get mind haxed) which work on atleast 350.000 people

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yes and yes.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I believe she has conceptually based resistance with her authority.

Not to mention that her authority granted resistance stacks with her natural servant resistance to those.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The entire time, I've seen that her Melt Virus is conceptual. So, why is Saraswati Meltout the only list of conceptual ability she has on her profile?

Furthermore, how far into her AP is Meltlilith? After reading, Yuuki could place her into a similar situation. His Physical Attack Nullification completely negates any physical attack to those comparable to him, similar with Magic Nulity. His Aura could keep her at bay, even if it couldn't harm her to prevent absorption.

I've also seen that her Resistance Negation would negate EVERYTHING Yuuki can resist... but what I've seen from the profile, it only seems to negate the resistance of Data Manipulation, and likely absorption.

On the topic of resistances, yeah, she resists it. But Yuuki's potency of those abilities can beat people WITH that resistance.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I'm not the big guy for all this, wait for Iapitus, but I'll answer what I can:

1. From what I can tell, Melt Virus is conceptual because it can melt and absorb the Sakura Labyrinth, which is a maze constructed of imaginary numbers (abstract concepts) and based on the conceptual being of a "cute girl's heart" (yes that is the truth, yes CCC is insane).

2. Melt is vastly above baseline. She equals or slightly surpasses BB, who casually created an infinite space just because she felt like torturing the protag. She did this for each of the main cast. Again, all done casually. Melt was considered a threat to her so she's likely either equal or slightly above BB.

3. Again, from what I can tell her Resistance Negation is also conceptual enough to dig into the moon cell, past all of its various defenses, including vast conceptual defenses. She's also able to negate the res of administrative AIs, which would have the entire moon cell ensuring that they function.

And 4. She already resists the concept of all of his abilities (thanks authority!), though this is where things start to fly over my head and I don't full understand everything, so I'm gonna not say much.

This is all what I remember from CCC extrapolated here. I'm in no way the person to debate on this, but this is what came to mind for me.

Wait for Iapitus to come here and give his two cents, he's the one who seems to know this stuff.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Okay, then Melt takes this Yuuki is second fiddle, and Meltlilith is top dog.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

4 more hours of grace then?

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

I'm not really invested into Meltlilith to know everything about her, but one slight nitpick. I would disagree on her being above BB, or even on her level. Yes, there is the statement of BB being threatened by her, but there is also the fact that BB was even more threatened by awakening of Gilgamesh even though at the time he was unable to resist her Authority and was really weakened. It's probably more her being extra careful no one destroys her work. BB is powered by the Moon Cell and at least 13 goddesses. Meltlilith was given the power of 3 goddesses, just to compare things. I think it's still a good way above baseline, but as I said, slight nitpick.

 

[NeoSuperior]

She was already able to apply time to the lack of time within the far side of the moon with her law manip.

"lack of time" is not quite the same as "concept of time non-existent" and concepts > laws, in general. Not to mention due to SBA it would be too late to just "come back afterwards" anyway.

How long does Melt take in-character until concept stuff gets used?

 

[Everything12]

She starts off with the conceptual absorbption.

 

[OpMasada]

They are both abstracts that affect an aspect of the world, but operate in different manners, so I don't think concepts necessarily > laws. This is just an uneducated answer equivalent to a guess tho.

 

[Elizhaa]

Speed is unequalized so the match is likely a speed stomp.

Also, just because Meltlilith can resist Time Manipulation doesn't mean Yuuki's Time Speed Boost works.