Megaten Discussion Thread II: Stephen Hawking > God

[MYHERO]

Yes. I think it should go away imo, because it could cause confusion for a lot of people.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It isn't going away

 

[MYHERO]

Damnit

 

[MYHERO]

Will there at least be a comment explaining that being tier 0 doesn't necessarily mean you would stomp any characters aside from tier 0 somewhere?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It will be better defined and properly structured alongside "1-A" but that's about it.

 

[MYHERO]

Tch

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Where is this thread, exactly?

 

[MYHERO]

Where is this thread, exactly?

General revisions? Not so sure.

But how I learned this stuff was from here https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3296368

 

[MYHERO]

 

[Dziga]

This is so accurate it's sickening.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Hey is there anything notable for Aleph for being able to damage YHVH naturally since he has better abstractness than Canopus?

 

[Eganergo]

>>Better abstractness than Canopus

What?

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Apparently YHVH's natural resistances is superior to Canopus's Factors

 

[Eganergo]

Apparently YHVH's natural resistances is superior to Canopus's Factors

Yes i'm aware of that. YHVH can turn Canopus into a noodle too, but Canopus has the abstract advantage as the embodiment of everything and anything.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Well it seems that can be negated via sheer AP and stuff. Plus Canopus isn't made from Observation and stuff

 

[Yobo_Blue]

YHVH has superior omnipresence. Besides, Canopus may come from Devil Survivor, but that doesn't grant him immunity to observation

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Well IIRC Septentriones aren't formed in the same way demons are

 

[Dziga]

If they aren't formed by the observation of humans like Demons then yes, observation won't do shit.

 

[Golfgan]

I know not to but its so narrow minded. And as most said the morality thing is odd. But its better than most since most reviewers shit on IVA while missing the themes and stuff and it was doing

I can't agree with this kind of theme/philosophy centric view or apology for fictions. Themes can never save a mediocre plot because themes should only be the icing of the cake/story. I mean if you view IVA on a theme centric level, then we should compare it with work that are also theme centric right? So... how does IVA compare to The Republic by Plato or any other essays?

And if you look at the plot without paying much attention to themes, then it's not very good. I don't think IVA makes much sense with the universe and atmosphere established by IV. The different turn of events are not particularly noteworthy or surprising or epic or whatever. The way the character developments are written could have been much better and more natural: compare that to Persona 3 or even P4.

The world building. Ashura Kai have pretty much devolve into the Rocket Team. No consistency in Tokyoites behaviour/personality: their behaviour is whatever is necessary to further the themes or the plot. Mikadoians: no comment. Demons sometimes behave like the demons we know and love in megaten but, other times, they pretty much have the role of the "beastmen clan" you see in a lot of shounen (esp. isekai genre). Tbf demons sometimes take this kind of role in previous SMT, notably SMTII, but this was never this blatant.

The Axiom and Steven important role was a bad idea as well as the ending. This is fanfiction level of Deus Ex Machina. Even the Observation is pushed too far (and I don't care if it serves to further some themes). Making the cosmogony and mythology a central point of the game is fanfiction level writting. This kind of stuff is like a magician's trick, it should stay somewhat hidden.

And the whole Steven DLC where the former games are explicitly reunited under a same universe even though none of the previous game were written with the Axiom or the Observation, as described in IVA, in mind. This is a level of pandering and fanservice to SMT theorist fans that should never be reached. This is the kind of thing that should only be contained in databook (or simply not existing). Don't poison the actual story with this idiocy.

My conclusion is: if you want themes, you can start by reading stuff like the Descent of Man from Darwin; and if you want plot, most fictions are better than IVA. This thing excels nowhere (I actually got bored by the gameplay despite having loved SMTIV and gone through it twice)

 

[Yobo_Blue]

If they aren't formed by the observation of humans like Demons then yes, observation won't do shit.

That's not how observation works

 

[Dziga]

Elaborate?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

You don't have to be formed by observation for it to work on you. Otherwise it couldn't do stuff like restore human souls

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I mean that's more of a specific case, their sensations were linked by Stephen

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yeah, but the point is that Observation is the way through which reality is changed and defined. So, yeah, technically it only works on things made from Observation, but in SMT that is literally everything, because the principle behind observation is what makes reality exist.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

That's fair but Canopus still isn't a god born from human faith and stuff so his existence can't be debased and ruined in the same way

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Are there any scans for The Axiom being infinitely above YHVH besides Krishna saying he can't be overturned?

 

[MYHERO]

Where does it state that the Axiom is infinitely beyond everything in the verse?

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Could be more lore, like him being above Observation since he granted or something

 

[Dziga]

If there is any statement it's definitely in IV or IV:A since these are the games that really go out of their way to explain what that "Great Will thingy actually is".

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

The Great Will is just 1-C YHVH I guess i can dig around in IV but the only thing that makes sense to me is The Axiom being at least 1-C, at least

 

[MYHERO]

Oooohh I thought you meant at least high 1-C.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Unknown but likely infinitely higher than YHVH is such an odd AP tier

 

[Dziga]

Tbf makes sense, even Stephen implies it's far above him.

 

[MYHERO]

I don't think being infinitely higher makes something a dimensional superiority but I can be wrong.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I guess the infinitely above dosen't equal higher D is mainly fourth dimensions and stuff i guess. I mean we all know its stronger than Stephen but the reason is 1-C in the first place is cause he can even comprehend The Axiom. And he still never said infinitely above as far as i can still know

 

[MYHERO]

Yeah being infinitely higher wouldn't equate to a dimensional superiority because R^N space which respresnts a real space of any number of dimensions has the same number of infinite points as R^3 and R^2 spaces. In other words, the number of infinite points in a 2-D space, a 3-D space and an N-dimensional space are on the same cardinal of infinity as per Cantor's own math, which is the only one which allows for different kinds of infinity in the first place.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Stephen can only comprehend a facet of the Axiom per the artbook interview with the developers of Apocalypse, and even then he still defines it as a fully abstract and all-encompassing force which holds the Universe together, it is also from where all Demons come from and where they return after death. High 1-C is more than fine for it.

Literal Cardinality also ain't all that useful for measuring the global sizes of objects either, since literally anything has cardinality equal to the real numbers if we go by it. If you wanted to use infinite numbers as a measuring stick it would be more appropriate to say a given object has size analogous to a given number, rather than pointing at its cardinality.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Its not neccesarily bad for High 1-C just odd, at least with unkown being there. But it works

 

[MYHERO]

@Ultima Reality Uh...I'm sorry can you elaborate a bit more for me pls :/

 

[Dark_warrior_100]

Ok, why are all commenfs just lines?