Megami Tensei General Discussion Thread

[CurrySenpai]

Oh yeah, the new Tier 1 and above system.

 

[G33kedzinx]

You just contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

The very fact that the Great Reason COULD be surpassed automatically disqualifies it from Tier 0, doesn’t matter if no one has so far. Hell, Ultima himself said this in the Tier 0/1-A thread

Curse Stephen’s goofy ahh for uttering this line. But can we honestly take his word for it ? He only perceived an extremely small fragment of the great reason. Solely taking his word when there’s no evidence of anyone even coming close to doing so doesn’t seem right to me.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Curse Stephen’s goofy ahh for uttering this line. But can we honestly take his word for it ? He only perceived an extremely small fragment of the great reason. Solely taking his word when there’s no evidence of anyone even coming close to doing so doesn’t seem right to me.

Considering he's one of the most knowledgeable people in-verse on the subject, I'd say we kinda have to take his word.

 

[G33kedzinx]

Considering he's one of the most knowledgeable people in-verse on the subject, I'd say we kinda have to take his word.

“That is because I sensed that humans have the potential to exceed the Axiom.

[ ** I need you to show me that I'm right]
That it was worth breaking such immutable rules to save you.

Now, show me humanity's true potential.

Take the reigns of history once more...”



I mean you can see that he himself isn’t 100 percent sure on what he’s saying. He’s making these statements despite only having a limited understanding or glimpse on the power of the Axiom.
imagine someone confidently explaining how to fix a car engine despite only having a basic understanding of cars and never having worked on an engine before. One might make statements based on their limited knowledge, but their uncertainty and lack of comprehensive understanding are evident.

High 1a seems more plausible and i might be mistaken on this. but all I’m saying is one statement shouldn’t be enough to completely dismiss them from the tier.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Wake up yall, we got the Maniax version of SMT V

 

[AdamVhenJP]

Wake up yall, we got the Maniax version of SMT V

Ong

 

[XatorNova]

man and I haven't even finished SMTV OG and I have to buy it again
I am wondering what they will add...

edit: also wondering if the revisions will wait until the game comes out

 

[AnAverageUsername]

So uhh, after seeing it pointed out on another platform, I feel like it's interesting that Matter Lucifer has YHVH's skills from 4A. Kinda big, isn't it?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

So uhh, after seeing it pointed out on another platform, I feel like it's interesting that Matter Lucifer has YHVH's skills from 4A. Kinda big, isn't it?

Our cosmology scaling confidently (and accurately) puts Matter Lucifer ontologically below The Great Will, so I don't think this would change much. YHVH in SMTII, a single head, has a skill called "Mouth of God", just like how The Great Will and Matter Lucifer have skills like "Inferno of God" or "Tornado of God", which likely just means those shared skills are inherent even to Manifestation Heads.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Our cosmology scaling confidently (and accurately) puts Matter Lucifer ontologically below The Great Will, so I don't think this would change much. YHVH in SMTII, a single head, has a skill called "Mouth of God", just like how The Great Will and Matter Lucifer have skills like "Inferno of God" or "Tornado of God", which likely just means those shared skills are inherent even to Manifestation Heads.

oh yeah, I know, I saw the discussions here. I'm more so saying "hey was this pointed out during that time where people were discussing about what killing God meant in SMT V".

 

[Hypertornado099]

Our cosmology scaling confidently (and accurately) puts Matter Lucifer ontologically below The Great Will

I thought it said Lucifer was stronger than God could imagine

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I thought it said Lucifer was stronger than God could imagine

I guess that's an anti-feat for God's intelligence

Lucifer is still evidently under the subjugation of the "Mandala System", which is identified with the cycle of reincarnation and is similar to the Conceptions of the Amala Multiverse that are purvayed by The Great Will. Of whom Lucifer consumed the Knowledge was a mere Manifestation Head, so he's in a weird position where his power far exceeds what an individual YHVH head could imagine but not the totality of every YHVH head in existence, The Great Will.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

For the record, what would happen if Vengeance straight up says that the God Lucifer slayed wasn't another name or whatever, but straight up The Great Will.

 

[Uuber1]

If Cognition created the universe and therefore the Earth, then why was Nyx able to crash on to the planet and form the CU? The CU was formed from her right?

 

[Hypertornado099]

If Cognition created the universe and therefore the Earth, then why was Nyx able to crash on to the planet and form the CU? The CU was formed from her right?

Nope. Who told you she created the CU?

 

[Uuber1]

Nope. Who told you she created the CU?

The waves of Nyx’s psyche, which spread across the planet, stood in harsh contradiction with the life already existing on it and threatened to eliminate said life entirely. Of course, the still very primitive, survival-instinct driven lifeforms of earth made attempts to resist these 'Waves of Death’. As a result of this, the lifeforms of earth entered a period of explosive evolution, and developed coping-strategies to resist Nyx, weapons against her. The crown of this development was a plane of shared information between all living beings on earth, the so-called “Collective Unconscious”.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

This says humans developed defense mechanisms against Nyx, the crown of which being the CU.

Humans made it, not Nyx

The paragraph very clearly states that the primitive life forms of earth were not too happy with Nyx's influence and evolved to contain it. This includes making the collective unconscious and locking her away in their minds. So no, Nyx never created the collective unconscious

 

[Hypertornado099]

What ThatBoiRick said

 

[Uuber1]

This says humans developed defense mechanisms against Nyx, the crown of which being the CU.

Humans made it, not Nyx

The paragraph very clearly states that the primitive life forms of earth were not too happy with Nyx's influence and evolved to contain it. This includes making the collective unconscious and locking her away in their minds. So no, Nyx never created the collective unconscious

This doesn't answer my question

Cognition created the universe and therefore Earth.

Cognition comes from the CU

If the CU was formed in response to Nyx then how was Nyx able to even crash on to the Earth to begin with?

 

[Hypertornado099]

The waves of Nyx’s psyche, which spread across the planet, stood in harsh contradiction with the life already existing on it and threatened to eliminate said life entirely. Of course, the still very primitive, survival-instinct driven lifeforms of earth made attempts to resist these 'Waves of Death’. As a result of this, the lifeforms of earth entered a period of explosive evolution, and developed coping-strategies to resist Nyx, weapons against her. The crown of this development was a plane of shared information between all living beings on earth, the so-called “Collective Unconscious”.

This doesn't say they made the CU in response to Nyx though, just that the collective unconscious was one of the strategies

 

[Lukewoesal007]

This doesn't answer my question

Cognition created the universe and therefore Earth.

Cognition comes from the CU

If the CU was formed in response to Nyx then how was Nyx able to even crash on to the Earth to begin with?

Acausality ¯\(ツ)/¯

I don't see how this is fundamentally different from SMTIV/IVA stating that Gods and Demoms are created from Observation while also claiming characters like YHVH created humanity.

 

[Uuber1]

Acausality ¯\(ツ)/¯

I don't see how this is fundamentally different from SMTIV/IVA stating that Gods and Demoms are created from Observation while also claiming characters like YHVH created humanity.

I mean FEMC is canon so this means there are several bodies of Nyx trying to regain her psyche again.

 

[Uuber1]

This doesn't say they made the CU in response to Nyx though, just that the collective unconscious was one of the strategies

Acausality ¯\(ツ)/¯

I don't see how this is fundamentally different from SMTIV/IVA stating that Gods and Demoms are created from Observation while also claiming characters like YHVH created humanity.

Persona still gets capped at this in all fairness, because Nyx is just a star eating alien and not some higher dimension god.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Persona still gets capped at this in all fairness, because Nyx is just a star eating alien and not some higher dimension god.

You right on not being some higher dimension god because it's instead a beyond dimension god

 

[AnAverageUsername]

When Persona 4 Re(run?) comes out eventually, I hope it takes inspiration from the anime. Like, Yu's theurgy equivalent is just bypassing the "one more" system and being able to rapidly switch persona's while also getting 5 turns to himself. Like what happened in the Mitsuo boss fight.

Or being able to fuse in the middle of battle, something like that.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

When Persona 4 Re(run?) comes out eventually, I hope it takes inspiration from the anime. Like, Yu's theurgy equivalent is just bypassing the "one more" system and being able to rapidly switch persona's while also getting 5 turns to himself. Like what happened in the Mitsuo boss fight.

Or being able to fuse in the middle of battle, something like that.

I'd rather get Persona 1/2 remake.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I'd rather get Persona 1/2 remake.

Why not all four.

 

[CurrySenpai]

according to the very reliable Atlus leaker both are in dev rn

Well 2 and 4 remakes, **** you 1

 

[AnAverageUsername]

according to the very reliable Atlus leaker both are in dev rn

Well 2 and 4 remakes, **** you 1

Oh boy, time to continue playing the version with terrible grinding requirements and my inability to move on from contacting every demon....

 

[Hypertornado099]

Lucifer is still evidently under the subjugation of the "Mandala System", which is identified with the cycle of reincarnation and is similar to the Conceptions of the Amala Multiverse that are purvayed by The Great Will. Of whom Lucifer consumed the Knowledge was a mere Manifestation Head, so he's in a weird position where his power far exceeds what an individual YHVH head could imagine but not the totality of every YHVH head in existence, The Great Will.

Thanks for this explanation, I think it makes snese

 

[AnAverageUsername]

oh yeah, about the new changes in Reload. How will those be handled? The new super skills, specifically fusion spells, now require a separate mag for the evoker to use as a Theurgy.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

(This is probably the last time I'll be responding to scaling/lore questions on the thread.)

I mean FEMC is canon so this means there are several bodies of Nyx trying to regain her psyche again.

I already pointed this out a few years ago. Every "human world" or singular universe is contained within Malkuth, a Low 1-C structure. Nyx is ontologically 1-A. Every version of the Persona 3 protagonist could've simply fought and sealed Nyx at the same time, since she, as a higher-dimensional being, could appear in multiple different lower-dimensions (and universes) at the same time.

Persona still gets capped at this in all fairness, because Nyx is just a star eating alien and not some higher dimension god.

There's still obviously a Cognitive aspect to her existence, since she's the source of all Shadows, and humanity evolved the CU, something fundamentally psychic in nature, to contain fragments of her psyche.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I find it funny how Marie confirmed there are millions of "Yu"'s in Golden

 

[CurrySenpai]

I can't remember or wellIforgot but in the True Demon route is "The Great Will" or whatever Lucifer mentions he wants to fight with the Demi Fiend the axiom or YHVH. I"d assume YHVH but IDK I hear sometimes it's the Axiom

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I can't remember or wellIforgot but in the True Demon route is "The Great Will" or whatever Lucifer mentions he wants to fight with the Demi Fiend the axiom or YHVH. I"d assume YHVH but IDK I hear sometimes it's the Axiom

Great Will.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Great Will.

So the axiom or YHVH. Sorry, I just am so used to using "The Axiom" cause of a roleplay I'm in.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

So the axiom or YHVH. Sorry, I just am so used to using "The Axiom" cause of a roleplay I'm in.

The Great Will = YHVH. The Great Reason = The Axiom.

 

[CurrySenpai]

The Great Will = YHVH. The Great Reason = The Axiom.

ALright, thanks

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Great Will.

I just realized I repeated "Great Will" instead of clarifying; that's my bad

 

[Uuber1]

Nyx is ontologically 1-A.

as a higher-dimensional being,

Where does this even come from? Because the main source of the lore, the clubbook, pretty much frames her as just an alien.

There's still obviously a Cognitive aspect to her existence, since she's the source of all Shadows, and humanity evolved the CU, something fundamentally psychic in nature, to contain fragments of her psyche.

So cognition existed before Nyx crashed on the Earth?