ApiesDeathbyLazors
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They didn't because that was never agreed apon.
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Medaka content revision.
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
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@ApiesFirephoenixearl said:
ApiesDeathbyLazors
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ughh...
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Bookmaker has durability negation but only for Kumagawa.
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I don't see how it's only for Kumagawa due to Medaka's version being the same but literally better.TheC2 said:
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@Fire
I'm just working off of Ant's revision summary.
I'm just working off of Ant's revision summary.
ApiesDeathbyLazors
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Book Maker has never displayed Dura Negation and Fire'sonly "Proof" are a bunch of textless scans of people being stabed with a large screw. I hate to be the one to draw this out, but that's the only thing I don't like about this. Even the last scan(the only one with text) isn't proof of dura negation. It's just a fancy description of it's overall effect.Antvasima said:
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True but we also concluded it's a seal that attacks the atributes alone and disregards the physical body (just bypasses it and attacks the atributes).
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Well before this thread is closed I'll drop this here. Hopefully, it gives us an example of how much force Encounter is pushing away so it isn't just limited to Unknown.
So to determine how much force Encounter is pushing away from himself. We have to focus on the current force ever shown to hit Encounter. This starting with Kuudou Hinokage if we decided not to break the universal law of physics, which is nothing with mass can achieve traveling at the speed of light.
Speed of Light at 100% = 299,792,458m/s (983,571,000ft/s)
So lets put Hinokage 1% below
Speed of Light 99% = 296,794,533m/s (973,735,000ft/s).
If Hinokage fist has an average mass of 300g and its moving at 99% the speed of light. It would have a total energ of about 190,000,000,000,000,000 joules(quadrillion) That's 45 megatons of TNT. That's 2,800 times more powerful than Hiroshima. Hinokage fist is going to be incrediable hot since the energy released by him moving at speed is around 80,000,000,000,000 K(trillion)or 143,999,999,999,540.3 degrees Fahrenheit This is x5 million hotter than the core of our Sun.
It takes about 1 centisecond(10,000,000 nanoseconds) for the light that hits the human's eyes retina to then be process by the brain. So since Hinokages fist is traveling near the speed of light it will only take 3.4 nanoseconds for fist to hit the opponent, Encounter activation time is beyond that in order to have to redirect the damage.
Keep in mind that majority of Anime authors unlike DC and Marvel don't dwell much on physics in their fictional stories. This is why I decided not to go into definite detail about the impact of speed of light characters hitting all the particles in the air, oxygen, nitrogen, ect are just suspended in frozen time because of Hinokage moving so fast. His fist would literally be hitting them with so much energy it creates a nuclear fusion. So, just for visual perspective here is a representation of just how much aftermath would happen after being punch at 99% the speed of light.
So to determine how much force Encounter is pushing away from himself. We have to focus on the current force ever shown to hit Encounter. This starting with Kuudou Hinokage if we decided not to break the universal law of physics, which is nothing with mass can achieve traveling at the speed of light.
Speed of Light at 100% = 299,792,458m/s (983,571,000ft/s)
So lets put Hinokage 1% below
Speed of Light 99% = 296,794,533m/s (973,735,000ft/s).
If Hinokage fist has an average mass of 300g and its moving at 99% the speed of light. It would have a total energ of about 190,000,000,000,000,000 joules(quadrillion) That's 45 megatons of TNT. That's 2,800 times more powerful than Hiroshima. Hinokage fist is going to be incrediable hot since the energy released by him moving at speed is around 80,000,000,000,000 K(trillion)or 143,999,999,999,540.3 degrees Fahrenheit This is x5 million hotter than the core of our Sun.
It takes about 1 centisecond(10,000,000 nanoseconds) for the light that hits the human's eyes retina to then be process by the brain. So since Hinokages fist is traveling near the speed of light it will only take 3.4 nanoseconds for fist to hit the opponent, Encounter activation time is beyond that in order to have to redirect the damage.
Keep in mind that majority of Anime authors unlike DC and Marvel don't dwell much on physics in their fictional stories. This is why I decided not to go into definite detail about the impact of speed of light characters hitting all the particles in the air, oxygen, nitrogen, ect are just suspended in frozen time because of Hinokage moving so fast. His fist would literally be hitting them with so much energy it creates a nuclear fusion. So, just for visual perspective here is a representation of just how much aftermath would happen after being punch at 99% the speed of light.
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I don't see how it's only for Kumagawa due to Medaka's version being the same but literally better.
I was referring to that turning people into minuses at his own level likely only works when Kumagawa is using All Fiction. The durability negation should be the same if it is valid.
I was referring to that turning people into minuses at his own level likely only works when Kumagawa is using All Fiction. The durability negation should be the same if it is valid.
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Okay:
In any case, Unknow is as good but that does not mean that Encouter can send back an infinitely stronger attack
- Mass = 300 g according to you
- Speed = 99% SoL
- KE = 1/2 MV^2
- KE = 1/2 (0,3)*(296794533,4)
- KE = 1,3E+16 J - Small City level
In any case, Unknow is as good but that does not mean that Encouter can send back an infinitely stronger attack
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1. It makes sense, especially since he escaped a sealing skill due to having another sealing-based power. "Power sealing" may be more accurate though.
2. I disagree, we don't know how she got there in the first place.
3. Can't we just put it as "Wound Manipulation?" Many of her skills don't have a link anyway.
4. I agree that such an hax is obviously not related to the power of the attack (unless we're talking about infinite/higher dimensional AP), but I doubt it will be accepted without any proof. I do think that multiple statements that support each other should usually be considered enough, but that's not how the wiki works.
5. I agree.
6. The clarification is probably not necessary. Besides it's more Resurrection than Regenerationn.
7. I mean, it's pretty obvious that they negate durability, putting the link to everything is superfluous. Edit: Oh wait, you meant the screws? Well, I'm not sure then.
8. I'm pretty sure that he says something like "I don't feel the hits. Or rather, I feel them but he seems to not feel them at all", so I disagree (unless I'm just incorrect).
I disagree with banning Medaka Box CRTs though. Even if the series has been over for years people keep finding new possible revisions (even "The Hero" was added just a couple of months ago). Besides, there's still the thing about the series physical AP and about The Hero that we were discussing in the other thread.
2. I disagree, we don't know how she got there in the first place.
3. Can't we just put it as "Wound Manipulation?" Many of her skills don't have a link anyway.
4. I agree that such an hax is obviously not related to the power of the attack (unless we're talking about infinite/higher dimensional AP), but I doubt it will be accepted without any proof. I do think that multiple statements that support each other should usually be considered enough, but that's not how the wiki works.
5. I agree.
6. The clarification is probably not necessary. Besides it's more Resurrection than Regenerationn.
7. I mean, it's pretty obvious that they negate durability, putting the link to everything is superfluous. Edit: Oh wait, you meant the screws? Well, I'm not sure then.
8. I'm pretty sure that he says something like "I don't feel the hits. Or rather, I feel them but he seems to not feel them at all", so I disagree (unless I'm just incorrect).
I disagree with banning Medaka Box CRTs though. Even if the series has been over for years people keep finding new possible revisions (even "The Hero" was added just a couple of months ago). Besides, there's still the thing about the series physical AP and about The Hero that we were discussing in the other thread.
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Not gonna lie that calc is very speculatory.
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So what still needs to be applied?
I don't agree with banning them as a hole. Perhaps we can just have one member lay off of them
I don't agree with banning them as a hole. Perhaps we can just have one member lay off of them
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Are you talking about the calculations or about the points? The points have already been concluded and will be added.Iapitus The Impaler said:
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Someone asked if I would help apply it, and I was asking how I can help. The calc still needs evalutation
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I agreed with updating them, but it seems like there's more to discuss.
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@Kepekley23
I think that you can make the agreed upon edits, with the possible exception of Bookmaker having durability negation.
@Kami95
No, definitely not. This thread is more than chaotic enough as it is. Adding even more topics would make sure that we waste hours more arguing and that nothing gets done.
I think that you can make the agreed upon edits, with the possible exception of Bookmaker having durability negation.
@Kami95
No, definitely not. This thread is more than chaotic enough as it is. Adding even more topics would make sure that we waste hours more arguing and that nothing gets done.
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Didn't we establish that Bookmaker just bypasses the physical body and goes directly at sealing the attributes? It wouldn't have worked on ajimu if that were the case.Antvasima said:
Yeah not to mention that the last thread was even worse than this one.
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I think type two sealing as a thing on this wiki may be a bit redundant. It's so vastly different from type one sealing and shares many more similiarites with power null/statistics reduction that it makes more sense to classify it as the latter.
Plot manip/fate manip are distinct because one is manipulating the plot while one is manipulating destiny. Type two sealing is taking powers away (power null) or reducing statistics.
Does anyone who was around when these pages were created have an opinion on the matter of type two sealing? Does any staff familiar with pages have an idea of the scope needed to make a change like this to type two sealing?
Plot manip/fate manip are distinct because one is manipulating the plot while one is manipulating destiny. Type two sealing is taking powers away (power null) or reducing statistics.
Does anyone who was around when these pages were created have an opinion on the matter of type two sealing? Does any staff familiar with pages have an idea of the scope needed to make a change like this to type two sealing?
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Well they do acomplish the same thing though they work differently. The point is that you need resistance to sealing to resist type 2 sealing, and resistance to power null for the other. My point comes from the fact that there are other skills in Medaka Box that do a similar thing though they are treated as Power Nullfication in verse unlike Bookmaker who has been called a seal an ungodly amount of time. Just having similar results is not enough, it's the problem about the resistances. So i still think that the type 2 sealing is needed.
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Firephoenixearl has a point. Even if the skill acts more like power nullification it still managed to seal quadrillion on Ajimu's minus abilities, even when in was estabilished that minus abilities cannot be nullified in-verse. Furthermore, as I mentioned before, Kumagawa resisted Momozono's sealing due to having a sealing skill himself, and Momozono's sealing was certainly not just power nullification. Type 2 sealing should be fine imho.
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Again, they acomplish the same thing, both prevent you from using ur powers, but sealing is still sealing and it requires resistance to sealing. And calling a "seal" power null, in a verse where power null and seals are different is wrong. They did differ them for a reason.Wokistan said:
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Type 2 sealing is a form of power null though. Resisting power null would insinuate resisting type 2 sealing.
Putting aside weather or not bookmaker can actually be considered sealing; in order to have resistance to sealing (Even type 2) it is logical that one would have to have either a resistance feat or a way to break the seal.
Type 2's sealing of powers and abilities doesn't really work as traditional power null.
Unlike most forms of power null, sealing doesn't completely negate the power. It isolates it and makes it unusable by placing an intagible lock on it's target. So, unless a character has either shown the ability to resist that lock from being enforced or they can somehow break that lock, they should have no resistance to it regardless of their resistance to power null.
Not a lot of characters have this type of sealing and I don't think Bookmaker falls into this category, but I definitely disagree with the "Power Null=type 2 sealing" point of view.
Putting aside weather or not bookmaker can actually be considered sealing; in order to have resistance to sealing (Even type 2) it is logical that one would have to have either a resistance feat or a way to break the seal.
Type 2's sealing of powers and abilities doesn't really work as traditional power null.
Unlike most forms of power null, sealing doesn't completely negate the power. It isolates it and makes it unusable by placing an intagible lock on it's target. So, unless a character has either shown the ability to resist that lock from being enforced or they can somehow break that lock, they should have no resistance to it regardless of their resistance to power null.
Not a lot of characters have this type of sealing and I don't think Bookmaker falls into this category, but I definitely disagree with the "Power Null=type 2 sealing" point of view.
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Should I make the edits now?
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Not yet we still need Ant to have his last say on this.Kepekley23 said:
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Avoid sealing even though that's the best possible definition?Antvasima said:
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I look at Type 2 Sealing as more a medium to replicate or induce other effects/powers. Type 2 Sealing doesn't just Power Null, it can do a lot more. EX: You can Seal away memories. That's a form of Memory Manipulation. It's ultimately a very broad term, like Status Effect Inducement. If character is resistant to certain powers, it doesn't matter how those effects induce those powers, unless you tap in a specific weakness or work around that's already there.
For example, let's say a character's only power is resistance to Petrification. They have no specific weakness or work around with this resistance. We will call this character 'P' for simplicity. Now let's P against some different things:
P vs. a character with Disease Manipulation: The Disease Manipulator infects P with a disease that will turn them to stone. Now, P gets infected because they have no resistance to Disease or it's manipulation. However, depite being infected, P won't turn to stone because they are resistant to the Disease's effects.
P vs. a character with Transmutation: The Transmutor attempts to turn P to stone. It won't work because P is resistant to that particular effect. That doesn't stop the Transmutor from doing other things to P, but P can't be turned to stone.
If we say that the effects that Type 2 Sealing induce bypass a character's resistances, than that would mean that the above examples couldn't be possible as P only has resistance to Petrification specifically, not to Transmutation or Disease Manipulation. That would be the principle that would be set by this.
For example, let's say a character's only power is resistance to Petrification. They have no specific weakness or work around with this resistance. We will call this character 'P' for simplicity. Now let's P against some different things:
P vs. a character with Disease Manipulation: The Disease Manipulator infects P with a disease that will turn them to stone. Now, P gets infected because they have no resistance to Disease or it's manipulation. However, depite being infected, P won't turn to stone because they are resistant to the Disease's effects.
P vs. a character with Transmutation: The Transmutor attempts to turn P to stone. It won't work because P is resistant to that particular effect. That doesn't stop the Transmutor from doing other things to P, but P can't be turned to stone.
If we say that the effects that Type 2 Sealing induce bypass a character's resistances, than that would mean that the above examples couldn't be possible as P only has resistance to Petrification specifically, not to Transmutation or Disease Manipulation. That would be the principle that would be set by this.
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Hmm that does make sense, it can't be applied to this case though. Because they are doing the same thing differently:
Sealing is basically locking the abilities somewhere. I mean let's not think of bookmaker as "sealing them inside you" but "taking your abilities and putting them in a chest outside your body" just to make things simpler. So type 2 sealing is what i just said, while Power Nullification is "nullifying ur ability passively" so let's say "power null is done via some aura that passively negates your abilities". Power null is basically you can use your abilities they will not have any effect doe, they will not work, like a candle, without oxygen you can't light a candle, power null is that lack of oxygen preventing the powers from being activated.
While sealing is taking away your right to use your powers. You can't open the chest without the key, the key in this case is resistance/immunity to sealing, without that you cannot access your powers at all, your powers are not getting nullified, but rather you are too far away to reach them. Here is another example, imagine this:
You are sitting on your couch with the remote controler on your hand and you try to turn the tv on. Power null is basically removing the batteries from the controller or just making it not work. Sealing is more like "the remoter is not in your hand, it's just outside of your hand's reach", you can't reach the controller and that's why you can't turn the TV on. Now even if you had a perfect controller (a special controller that can't be broken or have it's batteries taken), you would STILL fail to turn on the TV if it were outside of your hand's reach. On the other hand, even if you were allowed to move from the couch and get the controller if the controller has no batteries u STILL wouldn't be able to turn the TV on.
Both of them are similar, both prevent you from turning the TV on, though the way they acompish it and the way they need to be solved is different.
Sealing is basically locking the abilities somewhere. I mean let's not think of bookmaker as "sealing them inside you" but "taking your abilities and putting them in a chest outside your body" just to make things simpler. So type 2 sealing is what i just said, while Power Nullification is "nullifying ur ability passively" so let's say "power null is done via some aura that passively negates your abilities". Power null is basically you can use your abilities they will not have any effect doe, they will not work, like a candle, without oxygen you can't light a candle, power null is that lack of oxygen preventing the powers from being activated.
While sealing is taking away your right to use your powers. You can't open the chest without the key, the key in this case is resistance/immunity to sealing, without that you cannot access your powers at all, your powers are not getting nullified, but rather you are too far away to reach them. Here is another example, imagine this:
You are sitting on your couch with the remote controler on your hand and you try to turn the tv on. Power null is basically removing the batteries from the controller or just making it not work. Sealing is more like "the remoter is not in your hand, it's just outside of your hand's reach", you can't reach the controller and that's why you can't turn the TV on. Now even if you had a perfect controller (a special controller that can't be broken or have it's batteries taken), you would STILL fail to turn on the TV if it were outside of your hand's reach. On the other hand, even if you were allowed to move from the couch and get the controller if the controller has no batteries u STILL wouldn't be able to turn the TV on.
Both of them are similar, both prevent you from turning the TV on, though the way they acompish it and the way they need to be solved is different.
Wokistan
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Some powernull literally works exactly how you described sealing, its not all like what Kharn does. Power null is an incredibly broad range, encompassing stuff like this to MTG counterspells to Khorne and even more, and abilities can have overlap. Any power that results in the victim in some way having access to their supernatural powers severed, or the power itself dissipated is some subset of power null, and as such a power null subset can resist it. Your example for type 2 sealing other stuff depending on the characters just changes what category that power falls under. Memory sealing falls under mind/memory manip, if it somehow rewrote some in universe laws of the universe to power null its both law manip and really strong power null, etc. In many cases, mundane power null through type 2 sealing is actually worse, because a character who resists sealing or power null should be able to resist. The sealing resist character wouldn't even have the ability go off correctly, whereas the move goes off and just doesn't effect the power null resistor because they resist the effect, regardless of the fact that it's technically some other ability used to do that. If you really wanted to, nearly any superpower could be considered a subset of reality warp, but we don't credit people resistant to magically conjured fire reality warp resistant.
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@Ant
I have performed the edits and removed Kumagawa's resistance to sealing. Tell me here if I did anything wrong.
I have performed the edits and removed Kumagawa's resistance to sealing. Tell me here if I did anything wrong.
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