MC Upgrades

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not what I meant; I simply meant vehicles are actually less durabile in canon then they are in gameplay. Destroying vehicles isn't game mechanics it's just the method in which the vehicles are destroyed in game is game mechanics; such as number of hits or how the imagery of what happens. Saying it takes two shots to destroy a light armored vehicle isn't enough proof to backwards scale from the Incineration Cannon, especially since as mentioned above, destroying a light armor vehicle in one hit is at best 9-A. And that applies to forced based explosions, about epicenter being the main point, but not the heat parts. Again, destroying a heavy armored vehicle is at best 8-C. We can't use 9-A to 8-C feats as justifications to upgrade an 8-C+ weapon all the way to 8-A just from those lower leveled feats. Using game mechanic health meters is really bad; it's kind of like 8-C Terran Marines blowing up a High 6-C Battlecruiser over time in StarCraft when they can't do that in canon; not even close. Or Age of Empires cast destroying entire castles over time. We also don't stack AP with multiple rounds as that's considered Damage Stacking.

And I used Ionization of Titanium formula and Warden Eternal's size to get that calc. He ways 1452 kg, which the energy required to ionize that much Titanium is 4.77 Tons of TNT. Incineration Cannon gives like ten times more damage than binary rifle, but we don't use Calc Stacking to backwards scale like that as it's game mechanics. He could be higher than that via other feats, but his size alone warrants this. He still does Ionize Hunters in one shot with his Hard Light Sword which is a 5.551 To calc. And I already mentioned I already have a work in progress thread about weapon tiers being non-linear and that they should generally just scale from their own calcs rather than just assuming they're all the same tier based on game mechanic damage ratings.

And to be honest, I'm feeling quite burned out about this discussion considering the circled arguments and I already have a bunch of other things planned.

 

[Jaakubb]

This argument is going in circles because you're not responding to my mai arguments. Just ignore the part where you can destroy a light vehicle. We never need to discuss that again. The part that says you can destroy a heavy vehicle is what matters.

"Again, destroying a heavy armored vehicle is at best 8-C." I just said before that it can tank most of the incineration canno. According to the incineration cannon entry earlier, all of the incineration cannon's projectiles must hit the heavy vehicle to one-shot. That means that heavy vehicles have the durability to withstand the initial explosion and four out of five of the secondary projectiles of an incineration cannon shot. That would put their durability as slightly lower than the incineration calc AP. This is not calc stacking because we're not using it to precisely gauge AP. We're just using a supporting feat to put the binary rifle's AP at somewhat comparable to incineration cannon. It might be one sub tier (or whatever the in betweens are called) below the incineration cannon. Plus, this is not my main evidence, just supporting evidence as I said earlier. The main evidence was the key mind thing. Earlier, I explained that the article uses the term "keymind" to describe both the binary rifle's and the incineration cannon's targets. That implies they're the same thing.

And this does not compare at all to your examples. Those are both chip damage and outliers, but neither apply to this situation. The binary rifle can destroy the vehicle in a few more than one shot. That is definitely not chip damage. Also, this is no more an outlier than the incineration cannon feat. We've never seen another feat from the incineration cannon close to its 8-A feat. As I explained earlier in the thread, the feats can be interpreted with a wide range, we just use the low end because we have no evidence for anything else.

How does it not apply to heat based explosions? Heat energy can't spread out if it will just go into the enemy. Even if this is wrong, the video also says that the base incineration cannon (which is still 8-A) only has a blast radius of 4.5 meters and a diameter of 9 meters. Also, how did you calculate that the only 0.13 of the blast would go to the vehicle? Did you just compare the volume of the vehicle to the volume of the explosion?

You can't claim an outlier from a low end that is based on an assumption with no evidence. It was the most reasonable choice at the time, but we don't actually know that the warden is made of titanium. We don't know that the vehicles are made of normal titanium either. Yes, they use titanium, but it's an alloy. According to this article, their titanium is "strengthened on a molecular level." They also use ceramics to strenthen the titanium.

Also, I never suggested that we use exactly 10 percent of the incineration cannon's AP as the binary rifle's. That is definitely an abuse of gameplay mechanics and calc stacking.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Again, the gameplay has significantly different damage ratings than the actual canon, and you can't just call outlier on every high end feat also. Yes, fodder Marines from Starcraft taking out Battlecruisers is game mechanics/massive outlier, but I don't think Incineration Cannon's 8-A calc is as it's the strongest weapon in the game. "It can tank most of the Incineration Cannon," that's still based on game mechanics. It's also similar to how smaller vehicles can survive hits from Battlecruisers in gameplay, but are mass destroyed with ease in canon. I'm well aware of the inconsistencies, but there is lore about Incineration Cannons being used for graveminds. You were planning to upgrade the Binary Rifle earlier, but now you're implying Incineration Cannon should be downgraded? I'm confused.

Vehicles only have 9-B to 9-A durability as that's the energy required to do simple damage to those vehicles realistically. And the fact that the Scorpion Tank literally explodes means their actual durability would have to be much lower than the Incineration Cannon. Once again, even the SPNKR Rockets are which are recalc'd at 9-A are able to destroy Scorpion tanks in 2 hits. And a single Wraith Mortar is capable of KO'ing 3.5 Wraiths in one shot and 3 Scorpion Tanks in one shot. And furthermore, there is context that a Wraith must not fire a Mortar from too close or it will end up destroying itself as well. They have the capacity to scrape the surfaces off 7 Wraiths in two shots, but need to make a proper calc on that. Right now, their attack potency is based on the ability to vaporize 100 Grunts and/or Kig-Yar which got a Large Building level+ result but doesn't scale to durability.

Based on the current calc, Incineration Cannon ionizes 245116166.667 cc or 247567.322743 kg of biomass; per shot. Yeah, the blast radius/diameter is different in both games but still. Just because a Honda Civic can withstand a Lightning bolt doesn't mean it has Building level+ durability.

Because in order for Heat resistance to be a durability feat, the change in temperature needs to specifically be that high. In order for a tank to be vaporized it requires a change in temperature of 3267 degrees celsius; the boiling point is 3287 degrees celcius and the initial temperature by default is 20 degrees celsius. Heating an object 1000 times the volume 1000 degrees isn't the same thing as heating up the smaller object 1000000 degrees for instance. For example, the durability for a normal human sized character to survive being inside the center of the sun is Multi-City Block level+ given the mass * human body's heat capacity, * Heat of the Sun's core. Formula is 3470*62*15700000. I also heard that the explosion of a Propane tank has been calc'd at 8-B, but doesn't required durability even close to that to survive propane explosion. It would be higher than that of the character was heavier though, but neither Incineration Cannon nor Binary Rifle have exact official change in temperatures making it difficult to qualify; all we know is it ionizes both biomass and Titanium like metals. Also, as far as sheer force with unknown speed is concerned, a forced based explosion with a 7.1 blast radius would be 9-A, but the amount of heat is obviously much higher than that.

And yes, ionizing/vaporizing a tank is 8-A, but fragmentation one is only 8-C. But as you said it only fragment sizes rather than vaporizes. There's also other comparisons; a single Incineration shot can ionizes many Spartans while Binary Rifle only ionizes one. And what I mean by chip damage is that it doing virtually nothing the first shot but then suddenly exploding it the second shot is unrealistic. And I already said, the context for Binary Rifle being used for "Nascent Keyminds" is too vague to qualify. And Prometheans regularly used Binary Rifles against combat forms, not against Graveminds.

Yes, Tanks are made of Ceramic Titanium which is a bit stronger than regular Titanium but not overwhelmingly so. Ceramic Titanium is a real world metal. And yes, it is hard to tell what Hardlight's properties are, but Nanomolite and the Hardlight of fodder Prometheans are very consistently shown to be similar to Ceramic Titanium. Hardlight also tends to be inconsistent as a lot of things seems to make it go from solid to plasma state. And I never implied Warden Eternal will be locked at High 8-C, but rather than it's currently the most consistent/reasonable rating for him.

For reference, Spartan Laser was originally the strongest Halo weapon before Incineration Cannon was introduced. Also, Binary Rifle is the Forerunner counterpart of a Sniper Rifle and Scattershot being counterpart of the Shotgun. Incineration Cannon is considered the Forerunner's rocket launcher. And once again, is very heavily implied to be way above the Binary Rifle and the Binary Rifle simply shall not backwards scale from the Incineration Cannon.

Also, since the arguments are going in circles, it's probably best that this thread be closed. Normally, I like input from other staff members before doing so, but this discussion is both really tiring and contradictory to other things planned. And some of the other staff members who are knowledgeable on Halo seem inactive at the moment so I pretty much have to take care of everything. If you want to discuss it, you may politely message me on my wall, but I may be tired, busy, ect at times due to massive workloads both here and IRL. But I'll be willing to address every point when I can.