MC Upgrades

[Jaakubb]

I think there should be several upgrades for MC's profile.

So the binary rifle is currently at Building level+. However, I think that it should be comparable to the incineration canno (Multi-City Block level) because this page from an official website states that it is "a brutal masterpiece of Forerunner weaponcraft" and "was wielded by flesh-and-blood Warrior-Servants and military constructs alike."

The first quote implies that it was one of the forerunners most powerful weapons and the second implies that the people who wielded it were the highest ranking, if I can remember their hierarchy correctly.

If that is not enough evidence, another quote says that they were "employed to eliminate nascent keyminds and particularly dangerous parasite warforms with powerful hard light-jacketed antiparticle beams."

Now there are two things I can get from this quote. First off, it tells us that the weapon is capable of the same feat that put the incineration cannon at tier 8-A. Secondly, the weapon uses antiparticles (although not enough to convert an entire normal sized enemy to energy). We could calculate how much energy would be produced by the antiparticle-particle collisions and upgrade the weapon even more by calcing the mass-energy of the antiparticles. I don't know how we'd go about doing this, but maybe we could assume that it has as much antimatter as a normal bullet as a lowball.Here's a calc figuring that out. This wouldn't contradict the incineration cannon feat because the calc was honestly a lowball. We assume that they use squads of 15 knights even though iirc they only use squads averaging around 7 knights. Also, it uses the baseline for vaporisation instead of ionization.

Also, we should add High-Low regen to MC's profile since he can regenerate from bullet wounds in a few seconds. This is acknowledged by the lore and according to this page,"MJOLNIR GEN2 armors contain automatic biofoam injectors, which negate the need for their Sparta wearers to use health packs."

Also, I'm kind of a n00b at this and this is my first post on fandom so could someone tell me why my links to other articles say that they are to an external link?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Binary Rifle is no where near comparable to the Incineration Cannon. And we only scale weapons based on their own calcs and/or demonstrated feats, we don't assume it has more firepower just because they value it more. They probably just like how much lighter and easy to use it is compared to Incineration Cannons. Which the Binary Rifle hasn't really demonstrated anything beyond Building level+. Binary Rifles are not even close to being able to take out Key Minds and it's more so for their combat forms.

Also, it was agreed that 15 Knights by one of our calc group members. Squads range from 5-10, individually, but squad was plural in the context implying multiple squads. It was best to say it was multiple shots from each Knight given it required a continuous bombardment, and given Incineration Cannon can fire up to 4 times; that's 60 shots total. And considering even Proto-Graveminds were implied to take multiple rounds, 8-A seems like the safest calc.

Promethean weapons do use some Anti-Matter particles in their yes, but we don't automatically assume Mass-Energy conversion feats unless there's in depth context; which their isn't. Ionization simply meats heating up an object until it becomes plasma; the 4th state of matter. We also don't have a standard format for human/biology ionization, so we have to go with vaporization ATM.

Also, regenerating from bullet wounds is at best Mid-Low; High-Low would be growing small body parts back. Also, Reppuzan said that it should be Healing rather than Regenerationn as Regenerationn refers to healing from significant injures naturally; without medicine/surgery and stuff like that. Biofoam counts as medicine and more so qualifies as healing.

 

[Wokistan]

High-Low actually does work for bullets due to the organ damage part especially on heads and stuff, and I don't think antimatter can really be much else than mass energy so you should probably actually use that, if it doesn't cause some huge outlier.

Agree with DDM on the other stuff though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's still generally arms and legs that were injured, maybe a gut, but it's still healing rather than Regenerationn. And actually, there do exists "Anti-Matter" stuff that are only Tier 9 to Tier 8 due to lacking proof of Mass-Energy conversion; also a side note, even a single gram of Mass-Energy would be 7-C; which would be far too inflated given fodder Prometheans are regularly destroyed but Anti-Vehicle weapons. And other times call it is Ionized particles, which is just another term for plasma.

 

[Jaakubb]

"And we only scale weapons based on their own calcs and/or demonstrated feats, we don't assume it has more firepower just because they value it more." Okay fine, I was just seeing if you guys would accept that. However, my point of them being able to destroy nascent keyminds is my main point. Also, could you explain why we scale fighters and weapons so differently?

"Which the Binary Rifle hasn't really demonstrated anything beyond Building level+. Binary Rifles are not even close to being able to take out Key Minds and it's more so for their combat forms." Well, we have never seen an incineration cannon destroy a nascent keymind either, but we know that they can because of an official statement. The profile explicitly states that the "Binary Rifle was wielded by flesh-and-blood Warrior-Servants and military constructs alike, employed to eliminate nascent keyminds."

"also a side note, even a single gram of Mass-Energy would be 7-C; which would be far too inflated given fodder Prometheans are regularly destroyed but Anti-Vehicle weapons" Don't we only consider a feat an outlier if it directly contradicts current feats? The anti-vehicle weapons' feats of heating a person until there's nothing left of them that you could see could be interpreted from having an energy output of baseline vaporisatio (Small Building level) all the way to just below turning them into the quark-gluon plasma. A Mountain Level heat weapon would still heat a person until there's nothing left to see. However, we interpret it as baseline vaporisation because there's no evidence to prove the weapon's capability of causing whatever the process of turning an object into quark-gluon plasma is called (the baseline of which would probably be many orders of magnitude above Building level+ or Small Building level because people had to heat objects to trillions of degrees celsius to produce quark-gluon plasma). Because of occams razor, we have to assume that it was just baseline vaporisation. However, if this feat is valid, there would be evidence that the anti-vehicle weapons' feats aren't just baseline vaporisation, but something much higher.

"And actually, there do exists "Anti-Matter" stuff that are only Tier 9 to Tier 8 due to lacking proof of Mass-Energy conversio." Could you give me a link to those? That was probably because they were outliers, not because of "lacking proof of Mass-Energy conversion." How could it be anything other than that? It's antimatter! However, this wouldn't be an outlier because of my above argument.

"Also, regenerating from bullet wounds is at best Mid-Low; High-Low would be growing small body parts back. Also, Reppuzan said that it should be Healing rather than Regenerationn as Regenerationn refers to healing from significant injures naturally; without medicine/surgery and stuff like that" I feel like that might be a bit misleading since most people would probably assume that healing is voluntary when the suit actually heals the user automatically. But maybe people already know that. Also, can't MC regenerate from multiple chest shots from the AR? One characteristic of High-Low regen is regenerating minor organ damage, and getting shot in the chest multiple times and quickly recovering definitely meets that criterion.

"And other times call it is Ionized particles, which is just another term for plasma." The profile says that the weapon fires jacketed antiparticles. That means that the antiparticles are covered with something, so the projectiles don't consist purely of antiparticles. There's more stuff too, e.g. plasma.

 

[Jaakubb]

Also, I think I have a decent argument that the allegedly hypersonic feat discussed two weeks ago wasn't aim dodging. Would it be too repetitive to bring that up again?

 

[Wokistan]

The value thing can depend on context, but in this case there are definitely other reasons that the binary rifle variants are higher rank than just doing more damage.

Can't really respond to the rest right now.

 

[KarmodF]

Yeah the health packs are healing, normal spartans have Mid-Low, but the BioGel that it injects can cure organs from plamsma wound, which is around Low-Mid, of course it varies depending on the amount of BioGel used but I doubt It can go higher than Mid.

The only weapon used by Promethean Servants known in Halo is Didact's signature shotgun, every other weapon such as the Scatter and Binary we're use by Promethean fodder.

 

[KarmodF]

Also you can request somebody to calculate the Keymind feat on this thread, by using this format to request it.

• Priority:
• Verse:
• Feat Description:

 

[Jaakubb]

Biogel? You mean biofoam? I don't remember hearing of biogel. Also, this profile says that servants used the binary, but idk, i haven't played H4 in a while.

 

[Jaakubb]

Automatic self healing is still healing if it doesn't happen naturally?

 

[KarmodF]

Yes, the gel that Biofoam produces, again the only weapon we truly know it was used in Promethean vs Promethean/Ancient-Human battles was The Didact's shotgun which appears in Halo 5.

Yup is Auto Self-Healing, regen. is somebody's own capability (One's own body) to recover from damage, they are technically the same thing.

 

[Jaakubb]

What do you mean "the only weapon we truly know" was used? The website I linked to is official. We can trust their statement.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Low-Mid is for stiff like literally growing entire limbs back which Spartans have never grown any body parts back even with Biofoam; surgically reattaching body parts isn't quite on that level. Mid-Low is for scarring wounds and depending how serious heart damage is it can be High-Low. Spartans have never shown to heal without Biofoam or Mjolnir cyborg engineering.

As for the Binary Rifles, we need context on "Nascent Keymind" because the word nascent means still in their infancy stages; and Binary definitely can't destroy anything close to a real Keymind. They had to go all out and use the Halo Installation to get rid of those things. Incineration Cannons were used to destroy Gravemind with continuous bombardment; also Binary Rifles have failed to kill enemies that Incineration Cannons regularly one-shot. As for Anti-Matter being that low, Morty Smith had a 9-B anti-matter gun he used on Fart before. Also, most Forerunner weapons don't cause voids when used; that's why they lack Mass-Energy conversion. So Binary Rifles should just be Building level+.

As for the Beam Rifle again, it is redundant. But the final conclusion is that in order to disprove it as aim-dodging, there either needs to be a panel showing that Victor fired the Beam rifle while Otto was still in line of sight, which there isn't. Or the panel of him moving his head and torso needs to showcase a blur/afterimage, which there isn't that either.

 

[KarmodF]

As in that the Didact's signet is the only one known to be used in Promethean vs Promethean/Ancient-Human, while this one could be used for Flood combat, which wouldnt scale to other Prometheans (7-B) and would scale from its own feat of Ionizing keyminds.

And yeah is a statement we can 117% trust as it comes from a canonical source.

 

[Jaakubb]

Spartans have never shown to heal with Biofoam? This article explains how built in biofoam injectors in MC's gen 2 armor are basically built in medkits, which could heal bullet wounds in Reach. But fine, I guess it's not Regenerationn because the suit does it, not the wearer. But since when do real antimatter-matter reactions cause voids? And how far into infancy stages do you think the nascent keyminds that the binary rifle was used to destroy were?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I meant, "without" biofoam or Mjolnir they haven't healed; they definitely heal with that stuff.

And that's what I meant on how real Antimatter that would qualify for Mass-Energy conversion works; true Antimatter simply erases all matter it comes in contact with. Not even vapor/gas, plasma, or any elementary particles for that matter would remain in a Mass-Energy destruction. Binary Rifles or Incineration Cannons don't even erase the air around them, and the targets they destroy become a body of plasma; which is the 4th state of matter but still matter. Anti-Matter and matter collisions would just merge into pure nothingness if it was legit.

And I basically said, "Nascent Key Minds" are too vague, but at best; I'd say they were used on Juggernauts which are well below Proto-Graveminds.

 

[Jaakubb]

Yeah, I guess it would be healing, not Regenerationn. I didn't realize that the person's body had to actually regenerate themself.

And yes, antiparticles do erase all particles they come in contact with, but the reason why the weapons don't destroy the entire enemy is because there simply aren't enough antiparticles. A 62 kg person wouldn't get erased from just a single gram of it. Also, they don't erase the air around them because they are covered with other things, like plasma ("jacketed antiparticles").

In the profile for the incineration cannon, it also refers to the incineration cannon's targets as "nascent keyminds."

 

[Jaakubb]

I don't have the best understanding of how we view gameplay mechanics on this wiki. Would it be a bad use of gameplay mechanics to scale weapons based on how much damage they do to something, like a structure? I am not saying we should get exact values from the hp they drain, but that we could use it as supportive evidence (but not evidence that is good enough by itself) that one thing is at least somewhat comparable to another. For example, maybe one weapon can destroy a structure in gameplay with ten hits, and then another destroys it with nine. Also, nothing in their lore comments on how much damage they do compared to each other.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well sure, but that would also imply the Mass-Energy bits of it aren't even combat/damage applicable nor would it really one shot anything unless it was precise enough. Also, other sources say ionized particles or ionized gas which are just fancy words for plasma. Still prefer to go by ionization. Also, for all we know maybe only much less than a gram of it is actually anti-matter.

"Nascent Keyminds" are still far too vague to use since most every flood could be called nascent of all the more advanced floods. Incineration Cannon does specifically say they're meant for combatting Graveminds in other sources and have massive AoE compared to Binary Rifles. Binary Rifles are still considered comparable to Scattershots and both have both far lower AoE and do far less damage than Incineration Cannon. We don't use game mechanics and we instead use more scientifics and actual demonstrated feats. Otherwise, some 9-B bullets actually do more damage than 9-A chemical weapons do to being sharper/more penetrative. And there's also durability not really being entirely linear depending on other reasons.

 

[Jaakubb]

How would they not be combat/damage applicable? The energy release would go right to the target. I addressed the ionized particles thing earlier. "Jacketed antiparticles" means that they are covered with stuff, e.g. plasma.

Yes, the term "nascent keymind" can be quite vague, but as I said earlier, the site calls the incineration cannon's targets nascent keyminds as well.

I don't really know where the line is drawn between gameplay mechanics and feats, but would the example I gave count as a feat (I wasn't talking about gameplay mechanic feats as in "X does 68 damage, while Y does 100, and Y has an AP of 1 kiloton so X must have an AP of 680 tons")? It might not be the best idea to use the example by itself, but more as evidence that supports the other evidence. You talked about how the binary rifle does less damage than the incineration cannon so I guess it would.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We don't linearly apply damage ratings like that; characters with Town level durability should inherently be immune to all attacks 8-A and below, but game mechanics and PIS often leads to inconsistency. And it isn't about HP damage ratings as that stuff is completely irrelevant and should be disregarded as Game Mechanics. There's the fact that Lancer Knights are able to survive Scattershots and Binary Rifles where as Incineration Cannon can outright oneshot multiple Lancer Knights in a single blast; and also ionizes/vaporizes targets larger than them. And all of them are way weaker than the 7-C nukes which clearly cause mass genocide for most every character in the game save very few such as Didact of course.

We calc weapons from their own feats such as each bullet should just scale from the KE of its mass and muzzle velocity, and rockets scale from their explosion yield, ect. Chemical/heat weapons use energy required to heat up object of this mass of this material to a temperature of blank.

 

[Jaakubb]

I wasn't arguing that we should linearly apply damage ratings, I was acknowledging that we should not use hp to get exact ap ratings. I was saying that if they do around the same damage and it is not contradicted by the lore, that would be a fine supportive feat (not good enough by itself though) that they should at least be somewhat comparable.

Also, binary rifles aren't too behind incineration cannons in terms of damage. incineration cannons do not have a 100% chance of one hitting everything. According to this wikia page, the incineration cannon fires a projectile which explodes and then splits into five more projectiles, and it can only one-shot heavy vehicles if every single particle hits the vehicle. If only three hit it for example, the vehicle won't be destroyed. I'm not sure how many hits it would take for the binary rifle to destroy a heavy vehicle though. But again, I haven't really played H4 in a while and I don't have it anymore so i can't confirm. However, I don't think the wikia would lie about something like that.

 

[Wokistan]

I think that stuff like "this gun instantly kills and this gun instantly kills" is fine as a supportive feat. Obviously you can't really use stuff like that to scale the shotgun to Selene's Lance or something though.

 

[Jaakubb]

I don't think KE affects the validity of this feat in any way. I do think that heat does affect damage at some point, but not too much at this point.

Also, this is kind of off-topic but I never really liked how the profiles for penetrating weapons never address how they deal large amounts of damage because they do it in a small area. Lots of people are aware of this, but it seems like it would be misleading to some people. It should at least be mentioned somewhere else in the profile, if not in the attack potency.

 

[Wokistan]

I wasn't saying due to KE or whatever. I was saying that due to how despite how both can instakill players, its not like the shotgun's gonna be blowing through multiple tanks like the lance can.

There's just not a great way to factor it in besides being like "they have a gun", so people just gotta keep it in mind. It's nice to remember that a 9-B cartridge can penetrate and damage areas of 9-A things like trees and tanks, but it's not often gonna be to the extent fiction will have it like when Goku got shot.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We still don't use two weapons giving similar levels of damage as a justification to scale. I already have a Work in Progress thread in store addressing the occuring issues for a lot of FPS verses. As I already mentioned, the Sniper Rifle in gameplay does do more damage than Fuel Rod Cannon, and that's despite the former being only 9-B and the Fuel Rod being well into 9-A. The reason for this is simply the Sniper Rifle being more precise and designed for penetration, where as Fuel Rod is mostly just heat and radiation.

The Binary Rifle to Incineration Cannon is a similar case, the Incineration Cannon definitely releases many times more energy than the Binary Rifle does, which energy yield is what we rate attack potency ratings on. For example, surviving pool of lava that covers a city doesn't make one City level, the about of heat resistance to survive that is Building level. Also, I need to point out that the durability of vehicles is very non-linear. Penetrating a whole in a tank, isn't the same thing as completely melting or vaporizing one. And actually, we do have a lot of sources and stuff explaining things like that and threads discussing them. Binary Rifles don't destroy vehicles in canon just a note.

 

[Jaakubb]

So the example I gave isn't just gameplay mechanics?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basically, each and every weapon has their specific purpose, and using damage ratings or scaling to each other based on characters using them is kinda stretchy. Again, I will discuss stuff like this in another thread.

 

[Jaakubb]

I wasn't saying due to KE or whatever. I was saying that due to how despite how both can instakill players, its not like the shotgun's gonna be blowing through multiple tanks like the lance can.
There's just not a great way to factor it in besides being like "they have a gun", so people just gotta keep it in mind. It's nice to remember that a 9-B cartridge can penetrate and damage areas of 9-A things like trees and tanks, but it's not often gonna be to the extent fiction will have it like when Goku got shot.

Oops, my KE comment was a response to DDM, not you. Also, as I said, the issue of KE being focused into one spot probably won't affect this feat much because even with the incineration cannon's higher AoE, all of the energy is still focused onto the heavy vehicle and stuff. Plus, it's a point blank explosion.

 

[Jaakubb]

I'm not going to disagree with you on the sniper vs fuel rod issue (well on the main points at least. what i disagree with is a completely unrelated thing). However, I do not think that it is like the binary rifle vs incineration cannon situation at all. The problem with those weapons destroying vehicles by making a small hole in them vs vaporizing them is because those vehicles have a sort of gas tank that explodes if you hit it, which is an easily exploitable weak spot (if you can find and hit it) even with a weapon only capable of making a small hole in the vehicle. However, this situation is completely different. While the binary rifle's laser is small, its energy still spreads out when it hits a target as you can see when it hits an enemy but ionizes their entire body, not just the point of entry. This would apply to vehicles as well. The vehicles do have exploitable weak spots iirc, but you can still use the binary rifle to destroy them without making use of the weak spots. Also, as shown in this video, incineration cannons do not ionize or vaporize vehicles.

And where is the binary rifle shown to be unable to destroy vehicles in canon?

 

[Jaakubb]

Although maybe the h4 incineration cannon h5 incineration cannon are super different. I doubt they would make incineration cannons vaporize/ionize vehicles in h4 but not h5 though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You are right about the gas tank in vehicles being a chain reaction; which is a fault on my end a while back. One reason the rocket launchers are going to get downgraded to 9-A based on more accurate science rather than assuming the rocket alone is a giant hammer that completely shatters a Scorpion tank. You're also right that's not ionization at all, but Violent fragmentation at best.

Also, it is noted that most Forerunner weapons are also very specifically intended to destroy fleshy/biological creatures such as the flood. And not saying it's completely worthless against mechanical objects, but they aren't designed to destroy machines quite as easily as they can destroy biomass. I also note that the Incineration Cannon calc is based on rough guess work yes, but it's kind of the best we got ATM. It obviously doesn't vaporize/ionize the entire Gravemind in one shot since it required Squads bombarding it with Incineration Cannon shots (It would be 7-C if it was a one shot though). But at the same time, some people might thing it took hundreds if not thousands of Incineration cannon shots. The Incineration cannon can ionize the entire body of a Hunter, which would be a High 8-C feat.

But still, Binary Rifles still haven't really shown the ability to ionize things that much larger than Spartans. I'm aware that various attacks with high AoE don't always do more damage than smaller blasts, but I'll might as well explain this example.

Weapon A has a standard AoE and Standard change in temperature. Weapon B has the same change in temperature as weapon A, but X times bigger AoE. Weapon C has the same AoE as weapon A and X times smaller AoE than Weapon B, but it also has X times greater change in temperature than either one of them individually. The simple answer is weapon A has the lowest Attack Potency of the three, but Weapon B and Weapon C both have the same attack potency that's X times greater than weapon A. However, the complex part is that despite weapon B having more Attack Potency, it doesn't really do much more damage if used on a small target, where as weapon C is the one that does the most damage do to having more specific heat.

I'd say Binary Rifle is kind of like Weapon A while Incineration Cannon is more like Weapon B. Not everything hit by the Incineration Cannon scales from the full Attack Potency of the Cannon even if it survives, unless of course the size of the target is a key. And also, large objects in general tend to be more susceptible to chip damage from small attacks than small sized objects of the same durability is another thing to consider.

And yeah, the Incineration Cannon from Halo 5 has made some notable changes such as having lower range than the Halo 4 counterpart. And distinguishing regular shots from charged shots.

 

[Jaakubb]

...most Forerunner weapons are also very specifically intended to destroy fleshy/biological creatures such as the flood. And not saying it's completely worthless against mechanical objects, but they aren't designed to destroy machines quite as easily as they can destroy biomass.

The binary rifle not being designed to destroy vehicles does not necessarily support the claim that they cannot destroy vehicles in canon. And does the binary rifle really not ionize hunters?

Regarding your example and how it would relate to the binary rifle and the incineration cannon, I'm pretty sure all of the damage from an incineration cannon would affect a vehicle that it hit. The AoE of an incineration cannon isn't that much bigger, if at all than the size of a heavy vehicle. Because of this, I think that the durability would scale from the incineration cannon because all of the damage does affect the vehicle.

Also, I don't see how the binary rifle destroying a vehicle would be chip damage. I just noticed that in this article, there is a part in the Advantages section that says "The Binary Rifle is also capable of destroying most light armored vehicles with one or two direct shots, and even heavy vehicles with only a few more." That's not chip damage.

 

[Wokistan]

Wasn't the binary rifle actually pretty good at destroying vehicles in halo 4? Iirc one of the ones in 5 is too, think it was the double shot one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Incineration Cannon does destroy the vehicle, or at least most of it. And even then, destroying vehicles like isn't really that impressive; it only requires 9-A Attack Potency to oneshot a Scorpion Tank sized tank for instance if the gas tanks was triggered. Incineration Cannon has like dozens of meters in its AoE where as the Binary Rifle only as a couple. Someone needs to either be as large as the Incineration Cannon blast, while also being able to take the hit without being ionized to scale from it, or practically eat the blast without getting vaporized to fully scale from it. I think it was Antonifer who said something like that on another thread. And if a vehicle is completely destroyed, that that means it doesn't scale to the attack. Getting destroyed is not a feat, it's the exact opposite of one.

Binary Rifles destroy light armored vehicles in 2 shots, which isn't the same thing as destroying heavier vehicles like Scorpion tanks or Wraiths. Not to mention, the light armored vehicles are regularly destroyed by 9-B to 9-A weapons; off topic but still. Binary Rifles have never been shown to ionize Hunters in one shot.

 

[KarmodF]

Wasn't the binary rifle actually pretty good at destroying vehicles in halo 4? Iirc one of the ones in 5 is too, think it was the double shot one.

Shielding actually.

 

[Jaakubb]

I thought you didn't have to go for the weak spots to destroy a vehicle with the binary rifle. Because of this, you can't blame it on chain reactions. Also, they do destroy light vehicles with one or two shots, but the second half of the quote says that it only takes a few more shots to destroy a heavy vehicle. "The Binary Rifle is also capable of destroying most light armored vehicles with one or two direct shots, and even heavy vehicles with only a few more." Sure, binary rifles can't one-shot hunters, but they can still ionize them iirc. I am aware that binary rifles are weaker than incineration cannons, but I am arguing that they are somewhat comparable in terms of AP.

Also I'm pretty sure the incineration cannon doesn't have dozens of meters of AoE (not counting the projectiles, but those aren't part of an explosion, they cause individual explosions which are significantly smaller). In this video , it was shown to have a blast radius of 7.1 meters (note that other versions had smaller blast radii). I'm pretty sure that the heavy vehicles are big enough to take the entire impact.

The incineration cannon can one-shot a heavy vehicle, but all of the projectiles must hit the target. Heavy vehicles cannot tank all of the projectiles hitting, but they ca tank most of the projectiles hitting. The durability feat is tanking most of the projectiles hitting.

I haven't played either in a while, so could someone explain why the incineration cannons seem so different between H4 and H5? It seems the H4 ones can use multiple projectiles but the H5 ones only have one explosion. I don't know, maybe I missed a part in the video.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We still don't use game mechanics, because in gameplay, all the vehicles have very unrealistic portrayals. Like the way they work is that they have hit points and then suddenly explode when it drops to zero, which isn't really how vehicles are supposed to work. Still Destroying vehicles isn't even remotely close to 8-A and would at best be like 8-C. Destroying the more light armored vehicles is also only 9-A.

Both games portray the Incineration Cannon blasts differently than the books do; considering the Gravemind calc, it appears to be significantly bigger than either game suggests. 7.1 meter blast radius would still equal 14.2 meter diameter; and that's still significantly bigger than Binary Rifle or Scattershots. The Scattershot is like 2 meters with Binary Rifle being a little below that.

Assuming the video is accurate, it's got a diameter of 14.2 meters; meaning the length width, and height of the explosion sphere would be around that size. Scorpion is 10.2 meters in length, 7.8 in height, and in height (assuming 5 as a rough guestimate). That would be it's taking roughly 0.1389311868 of the blast excluding the empty space on the inside making the result lower. But it won't scale to durability due to the fact that the Scorpion Tank is like completely destroyed. But as said above, vehicles aren't portrayed realistically in gameplay and destroying them isn't really all that impressive.

Anyway, another note is that Incineration Cannon does do way more damage against Warden Eternals than the Binary Rifle does I forgot to mention. And based on Warden Eternal's mass, I calculated that the energy his body would absorb from the Incineration Cannon would be around High 8-C.

So it still stands that Binary Rifles have no reason to be 8-A and prefer to stick to the 8-C+ calcs available.

 

[Jaakubb]

I don't think that the binary rifle destroying heavy vehicles is gameplay mechanics. It's an in-game feat. For example, rpg fighters fighting in turns is a gameplay mechanic, while commander shepard destroying an 8-A vehicle is an in-game feat. Also, the portrayal of vehicles isn't too bad IMO. If you damage the vehicle enough, they should logically explode at some point. The main point is, the vehicle can withstand 4 fifths of the secondary projectiles from the incineration cannon without exploding. However, the binary rifle can somewhat comparable damage than those projectiles if you fire enough times, as shown when you actually destroy the vehicle.

I should have given the blast diameter of the base incineration cannon (meters). Plus, I just realized that since it's a point blank explosion, wouldn't only the size of the projectile matter?

How much more damage to the Warden Eternal does the incineration cannon do than the binary rifle? And how did you make that High 8-C calc? Did you assume that he has the same heat capacity as a normal person?