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Master Combatants: Batman vs Wolf
- Thread starter Yobo_Blue
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There's no straw man, no. Honestly, the way you said that was just very confusing. If you thought the stealth feats were with prep time, actually say that first. Not to mention that they don't utilize any sort of prep no, we have literally no reason to assume that when Batman has previously disappeared while right besides people. What's straw man about a rather "clear" comment that I cannot interpret any other way since we haven't brought up anything prep related?
@Bambu
Suit yourself then if you really think that's what I mean. Painting a spear user that can use widely ranged attacks against groups of enemy while heavily covered in armor in a highly dexterous armored horse as "only superior skill" is untruthful. Gyoubu is supremely skilled, but I feel you aren't recognizing how many advantages he has here. And the skilled enemies in question don't have literally any of the tools Wolf had, the one who defeated Gyoubu, besides comparable skill.
And it is, again, still putting a battle against many people with comparable AP above literally any other skill feat, which is a big no.
@Bambu
Suit yourself then if you really think that's what I mean. Painting a spear user that can use widely ranged attacks against groups of enemy while heavily covered in armor in a highly dexterous armored horse as "only superior skill" is untruthful. Gyoubu is supremely skilled, but I feel you aren't recognizing how many advantages he has here. And the skilled enemies in question don't have literally any of the tools Wolf had, the one who defeated Gyoubu, besides comparable skill.
And it is, again, still putting a battle against many people with comparable AP above literally any other skill feat, which is a big no.
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So yes, you can technically overpower someone through sheer skill and experience, and Batman's skill is enough to do that to people with extreme levels of experience, which is a skill feat.
So yeah, overpowering individuals who have been training for that long and have been fighting throughout that time is a skill feat no matter how you look at it.
So yeah, overpowering individuals who have been training for that long and have been fighting throughout that time is a skill feat no matter how you look at it.
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Voting Wolf FRA.
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I was leaning to Batman since before, but I wanna see what more Bambu has to say first.
But I do agree it makes no sense to assume Batman would kill because SBA. It's an option due tot he rules, but the last option he'll try considering his character.
But I do agree it makes no sense to assume Batman would kill because SBA. It's an option due tot he rules, but the last option he'll try considering his character.
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@Yobo As for my personal thoughts
Batman should take this, but it'll be hard. I don't think at all he's more skilled than Wolf they should be comparable, but he's more versatile in his fighting and options and is well versed in incapacitation even without his tools. Even if that incapacitation may require broken bones. If things like altering his perception of time are combat applicable, even more so.
Then there's resistances, with fire not doing anything. poison not really likely going to matter, invisibility won't matter with extrasensory perception, and body puppeetry won't work either.
Meanwhile there's his electrically charged suits and Batarang, flashlights and such which he can even just drop from his feet without issue, freezing ray and tranq darts/tazers if he ever sees the opportunity, his thread weapon that moves around like omega beams, restraint pellets, etc. Plus his fake circulatory system if he wants to deceive Wolf.
It's a close one but a lot is making me lean to him.
Batman should take this, but it'll be hard. I don't think at all he's more skilled than Wolf they should be comparable, but he's more versatile in his fighting and options and is well versed in incapacitation even without his tools. Even if that incapacitation may require broken bones. If things like altering his perception of time are combat applicable, even more so.
Then there's resistances, with fire not doing anything. poison not really likely going to matter, invisibility won't matter with extrasensory perception, and body puppeetry won't work either.
Meanwhile there's his electrically charged suits and Batarang, flashlights and such which he can even just drop from his feet without issue, freezing ray and tranq darts/tazers if he ever sees the opportunity, his thread weapon that moves around like omega beams, restraint pellets, etc. Plus his fake circulatory system if he wants to deceive Wolf.
It's a close one but a lot is making me lean to him.
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Eh.... well, my vote can be revoked if it's debunked or I change my mind, so go ahead.
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Being outplayed by the Joker is definitely not an anti-feat, seeing as the latter has done everything from regularly staging escapes from Arkham Asylum to kicking Lex Luthor's ass and outwitting him multiple times, beating Ra's Al Ghul in chess, and outsmarting Deathstroke more than once. Among numerous other things.Mr. Bambu said:
Batman has beaten Harley far more times than vice-versa. Same with Croc.
Batman has defeated Bane more than enough times to nullify this argument, and even if he hadn't, how exactly is losing to Bane of all people an anti-feat?
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That's an understatement.
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Bane is explicitly stated in verse to be immensely smarter and more agile then his looks imply
Honestly if you want a good summary, look at Deathbattle
Yeah, I just said that
Honestly if you want a good summary, look at Deathbattle
Yeah, I just said that
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Yes. So why bring them up here? It's only game mechanics for a creature that is nowhere even remotely close to you to harm you. This is the assumption for every game. Hell, if we're on the subject, 4-C Hollows from Dark Souls when?Mr. Bambu said:
Because they can break Wolf's posture when he is using an umbrella? Not even most enemies can deal that level of posture damage to it, from what I have seen. So it's clearly intended by the developers for powerful blows to damage its posture severely. How quickly can Wolf even activate it? Could he do it on reaction or instinct? There would have to be a lore reason for why he doesn't steamroll everyone and everything by just spamming it.
Yes, Deathblows are done by breaking posture. However, the fact that they one-shot isn't related to that posture breaking. And for the record, no. A single deathblow animation killed the Serpent. The first merely blinded it because the eye was brought within close contact of Wolf.
Go watch the video of the Great Serpent that was posted here. It clearly shows Wolf do two deathblows in a row on an off-guard Serpent.
Wolf doesn't need to counteract his styles, simply excel to an absurd degree at his own. Which he's done. Bats has no feats comparable. His 100+ martial arts aren't equatable to Wolf's small handful.
Batman actively fights people akin to him in intelligence who are also masters to an absurd degree of their own fighting style (Such as Deadshot, Deathstroke, etc). Batman actively fights, and defeats, people that are akin to his own skill that also have powers to aid them against him.
Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, Freeze and Deathstroke, Bane all come to mind as superpowered geniuses that Batman consistently fights and defeats. Some iterations of the Joker even has ridiculous fighting feats and is often touted as having intelligence rivalling Batman.
Overall, Batman has to constantly contend with people that are skilled, superpowered and ingenious but he always wins via incap rather than killing (whereas Wolf aims for the kill from the get go). Comparing skill based on bodycount is, thus, absurd.
I could also point to Batman single-handedly fighting and defeating dozens of ninjas in one-sitting solo, pretty sure Post-Crisis has done that numerous times.
No, you don't have to post anything. Just show some baseline knowledge of the game before looking up a guide to tell you things. You've shown an astounding lack of knowledge on a game you're decently into (Ashina Dojo, you said).
No, I haven't. The only point I would concede to is being unaware of the Loaded Umbrella due to myself not purchasing it. You keep missing what I am referring to in-regards to the Grand Serpent and you implied that gossip from mooks equates to Gyobou factually defeating armies on his own.
And, to add to this point, again, you are wrong, though I cannot fault you with this one because it isn't as blatant as the other dozen things you've ignored. The snake is aware of Wolf in the little hut thing. The lore states that creatures in Sekiro regularly sacrifice themselves to the Serpent in order to "marry" it by letting the serpent devour them. You get into the structure people sacrifice themselves in to hide, thus the Serpent takes it as a change of heart. The lore to this is available on the Shunpou assassin just after the serpent's first area, if you kill him you'll pick up an item with the description to back this up.
So Wolf stabbed the Serpent when it believed Wolf was relenting? Isn't that essentially the same thing as stabbing the Serpent unaware?
No, the low-end is based purely on the number of corpses in Ashina Castle. I just happen to also know the army is much larger based on it being set in Japan. Basically, nothing contradicts the latter but even the former displays Wolf casually slaughtering Bruce in terms of raw skill.
Okay, so do you have any actual figures for these armies to conclusively state that they are in the tens of thousands in terms of units? Do you have anything to indicate how many of these people Gyobou actually killed himself? How recently did he kill them? Just before Wolf arrived? (I'd assume so considering the ruin present at the area). Was Gyobou weakened/exhausted from fighting said army?
You also stated beforehand that Wolf defeating Gyobou, who can defeat armies of people comparable to Wolf in AP (I'd question how you can claim that even a majority are akin to Wolf in AP when they have no feats. You would just be scaling based off a few of them, from what I can tell, that are still around) as an indication for Wolf's skill being capable of slaughtering armies. Yet, if Wolf was so skillful, to such an absurd degree (as you state this is enough to warrant Wolf defeating Batman in skill) then why can't such a skilled Shinobi simply outdo every other Shinobi by killing the Gyobou that slaughtered the armies of people equivalent to Wolf in AP?
Basically, what I am stating is that Wolf, based on your arguments, would be far more skilled than any of the soldiers that Gyobou faced. That isn't enough to claim that he can slaughter armies of people with similar AP. That just means Wolf can counter Gyobou (notably due to his prosthetic and superior skill). Not that Wolf can slaughter 'armies' of people similar in AP to himself.
Batman himself has defeated opponents of such renown, by himself.
Months ago? It came out just over two months ago. Surely the knowledge of the entire game can't have left your mind when Batman's feats seem to stick like glue? I feel compelled to find why you blatantly ignore relevant information about Sekiro in a versus thread when you claim over and over to have played it to the relevant point and beyond. Saying you hadn't actually played it is the kindest assumption I can make- the other is that you are belligerantly ignoring Wolf's abilities in the name of allowing Batman to win. Forgive me for not assuming the latter before the former.
'The entire' game? The only point I legitimately didn't know about, that I could have reasonably encountered, is the Umbrella. Why the hell are you so obsessed with making me out to be some biased idiot?
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Batman FRA
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Before Bambu takes my point about Wolf vs Gyobou and completely misses the point, I'll elaborate on what I mean.
Gyobou, according to Bambu, has slaughtered an army of persons equivalent to Wolf in AP (with no proof provided to support the claim that they compare to Wolf in AP or that the common soldier would be comparable in AP to Wolf). My question is, why is this relevant to a 1v1 fight?
Look at Gyobou's entire fighting style. He races around the battlefield riding horseback and swings a giant spear around, destroying wooden constructs and, obviously, having the range to slaughter dozens of men with his swings.
Wolf has no weaponry or range that could achieve that feat. You can argue that maybe he can use his shurikens to take out multiple men in one go but that's all I can see. Claiming Wolf can slaughter 'armies' due to Gyobou's entire fighting style being geared around exactly that is just utterly absurd. And one's ability to handle 1vMany encounters doesn't equate to their ability to handle 1v1 encounters either.
Wolf defeated Gyobou because he was better than any of the soldiers that Gyobou fought. Not because he somehow scales to Gyobou, someone who has trained for active warfare, slaughtering 'armies' of men.
Wolf being better than any of the soldiers Gyobou faced is, indeed, an excellent argument for his skill being among the very best in his universe, surpassing thousands of persons. But that doesn't work as an argument for him having skill comparable to, or surpassing, Batman. How skilled are the soldiers that Gyobou faced, actually? What conditions were they coping with? With lack of information I can not seriously take Wolf defeating Gyobou (who defeated 'armies' of men) as indication of him being superior to Batman, featwise with his skills.
Gyobou, according to Bambu, has slaughtered an army of persons equivalent to Wolf in AP (with no proof provided to support the claim that they compare to Wolf in AP or that the common soldier would be comparable in AP to Wolf). My question is, why is this relevant to a 1v1 fight?
Look at Gyobou's entire fighting style. He races around the battlefield riding horseback and swings a giant spear around, destroying wooden constructs and, obviously, having the range to slaughter dozens of men with his swings.
Wolf has no weaponry or range that could achieve that feat. You can argue that maybe he can use his shurikens to take out multiple men in one go but that's all I can see. Claiming Wolf can slaughter 'armies' due to Gyobou's entire fighting style being geared around exactly that is just utterly absurd. And one's ability to handle 1vMany encounters doesn't equate to their ability to handle 1v1 encounters either.
Wolf defeated Gyobou because he was better than any of the soldiers that Gyobou fought. Not because he somehow scales to Gyobou, someone who has trained for active warfare, slaughtering 'armies' of men.
Wolf being better than any of the soldiers Gyobou faced is, indeed, an excellent argument for his skill being among the very best in his universe, surpassing thousands of persons. But that doesn't work as an argument for him having skill comparable to, or surpassing, Batman. How skilled are the soldiers that Gyobou faced, actually? What conditions were they coping with? With lack of information I can not seriously take Wolf defeating Gyobou (who defeated 'armies' of men) as indication of him being superior to Batman, featwise with his skills.
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Lone Swordsman is canonically a mini-boss fight only available after Gyoubu. To be able to harm Wolf and provide the actual challenge of a mini-boss, they'd have to have comparable AP. The Lone Swordsman is just one of the units that Gyoubu defeated. I've made this point a dozen times.
It matters because these fighters have the means to close range and dodge. It isn't as if his spear is a homing missile. It is purely a skill feat.
The fact that Wolf doesn't have ranged weaponry speaks volumes for his skill, then, wouldn't you agree? Since he apparently overcomes Gyoubu with that, who, in your book, slaughtered an army by having just a bit of a wide swing?
He scales to Gyoubu by being better than him. He outdid Oniwa boi and those above him, attempting to scale him to the run-of-the-mill federal soldiers is immense downplay of the feat.
It matters because these fighters have the means to close range and dodge. It isn't as if his spear is a homing missile. It is purely a skill feat.
The fact that Wolf doesn't have ranged weaponry speaks volumes for his skill, then, wouldn't you agree? Since he apparently overcomes Gyoubu with that, who, in your book, slaughtered an army by having just a bit of a wide swing?
He scales to Gyoubu by being better than him. He outdid Oniwa boi and those above him, attempting to scale him to the run-of-the-mill federal soldiers is immense downplay of the feat.
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Lone Swordsman is canonically a mini-boss fight only available after Gyoubu. To be able to harm Wolf and provide the actual challenge of a mini-boss, they'd have to have comparable AP. The Lone Swordsman is just one of the units that Gyoubu defeated. I've made this point a dozen times.
I already mentioned the soldiers that Wolf can face. I asked if they would actually scale to the average soldier that Gyoubu has fought.
It matters because these fighters have the means to close range and dodge. It isn't as if his spear is a homing missile. It is purely a skill feat.
Again, Gyoubou is geared for warfare. His skill at warfare would not translate to his skill at duels, whereas Wolf excels at executions and 1v1 combat. The method Wolf uses to kill Gyoubou is knocking him off his horse and then impaling him, not overpowering him, not matching his spear but by knocking him over and killing him. Which, of course, is him breaking Gyoubou's posture for the finisher deathblow.
This doesn't mean Wolf scales to being capable of killing 'armies' of people scaling to him in AP. It means he is more skilled than any of the soldiers that Gyoubou faced and even then I can argue that Gyoubou fought Wolf 1v1 whereas the soldiers he slaughtered were, likely, fought in a 1vMany format. Which is a completely different style of combat.
The fact that Wolf doesn't have ranged weaponry speaks volumes for his skill, then, wouldn't you agree? Since he apparently overcomes Gyoubu with that, who, in your book, slaughtered an army by having just a bit of a wide swing?
A 'bit' of a wide swing? Sure. I'm not denying Wolf's skill. I'm denying that it means Wolf can slaughter armies because he defeated someone who specialises in warfare. I mean, just looking at the boss fight. Gyoubou is constantly impeded by his horse being startled by firecrackers, slashed at, etc. Wolf's first Deathblow is him climbing up the horse to stab Gyoubou. His second Deathblow is him knocking Gyuobou off the horse.
Canonically speaking, Wolf defeats Gyoubou by attacking his horse and knocking him off his horse. He's more skilled than any of the soldiers Gyoubou faced on the battlefield (assuming that he wasn't exhausted) but this doesn't scale Wolf to being capable of defeating 'armies' that match his AP.
He scales to Gyoubu by being better than him. He outdid Oniwa boi and those above him, attempting to scale him to the run-of-the-mill federal soldiers is immense downplay of the feat.
He's better than Gyoubu at 1v1 combat. Nothing indicates he compares at 1vMany combat. Again, all that proves is that Wolf is more skilled than the soldiers Gyoubu faced. Not that Wolf can slaughter those soldiers like Gyoubu.
I already mentioned the soldiers that Wolf can face. I asked if they would actually scale to the average soldier that Gyoubu has fought.
It matters because these fighters have the means to close range and dodge. It isn't as if his spear is a homing missile. It is purely a skill feat.
Again, Gyoubou is geared for warfare. His skill at warfare would not translate to his skill at duels, whereas Wolf excels at executions and 1v1 combat. The method Wolf uses to kill Gyoubou is knocking him off his horse and then impaling him, not overpowering him, not matching his spear but by knocking him over and killing him. Which, of course, is him breaking Gyoubou's posture for the finisher deathblow.
This doesn't mean Wolf scales to being capable of killing 'armies' of people scaling to him in AP. It means he is more skilled than any of the soldiers that Gyoubou faced and even then I can argue that Gyoubou fought Wolf 1v1 whereas the soldiers he slaughtered were, likely, fought in a 1vMany format. Which is a completely different style of combat.
The fact that Wolf doesn't have ranged weaponry speaks volumes for his skill, then, wouldn't you agree? Since he apparently overcomes Gyoubu with that, who, in your book, slaughtered an army by having just a bit of a wide swing?
A 'bit' of a wide swing? Sure. I'm not denying Wolf's skill. I'm denying that it means Wolf can slaughter armies because he defeated someone who specialises in warfare. I mean, just looking at the boss fight. Gyoubou is constantly impeded by his horse being startled by firecrackers, slashed at, etc. Wolf's first Deathblow is him climbing up the horse to stab Gyoubou. His second Deathblow is him knocking Gyuobou off the horse.
Canonically speaking, Wolf defeats Gyoubou by attacking his horse and knocking him off his horse. He's more skilled than any of the soldiers Gyoubou faced on the battlefield (assuming that he wasn't exhausted) but this doesn't scale Wolf to being capable of defeating 'armies' that match his AP.
He scales to Gyoubu by being better than him. He outdid Oniwa boi and those above him, attempting to scale him to the run-of-the-mill federal soldiers is immense downplay of the feat.
He's better than Gyoubu at 1v1 combat. Nothing indicates he compares at 1vMany combat. Again, all that proves is that Wolf is more skilled than the soldiers Gyoubu faced. Not that Wolf can slaughter those soldiers like Gyoubu.
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Im voting Wolf Fra.
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Wolf dies, comes back to life, and dies again for reasons stated above.
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dude Wolf dies then brought Life again.
it's inconclusive.
it's inconclusive.
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Isn't his immortality based on having some blood or something like that, and if he dies again he stays dead? I'm only a few hours into the game.
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If he dies multiple times, he steals another nearby person's blood and inflict Dragonrot on them, a lethal disease
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Just in a game you can resurrection before wolf died
but don't mention The Lore.
but don't mention The Lore.
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So then Batman would be having his blood stolen as he's the only one around?Steven Pogi Paitao said:
In which case it would be win via incap.
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Can someone please summarize the arguments for both Wolf and Batman. Its hard to keep up with all this back and forth going on.
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