Master Combatants: Batman vs Wolf

[Yobo_Blue]

Then you haven't been paying attention. Look at what I've said.

Batman has a lot of martial arts and can take on a lot of other martial artists, sometimes a few on his own physical level at a time (other times, not so much).

Wolf is > Gyoubu who can defeat a literal army of equal-AP people in terms of skill alone and was going to do so for a long time until we roll in and kill him.

Wolf has the higher skill feat by a considerable margin, with Bats having the advantage only in number of ways he can be lesser.

Yes, he can do that, but that may not even matter if their skill was low in the first place. You have yet to explain what level of skill they have.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That is just a feat of upscaling. I could say that Batman has feats of casually yeeting entire armies (which he does to some degree), but it doesn't really amount to anything if we don't know their level of skill.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Here, the argument for Wolf doesn't work because it amounts to "beating lots of people who are very skilled and have lots of AP", but it's unknown how much skill they have. I could say that Madara from Naruto is as skilled as Wolf because he did the same sort of thing. Furthermore, when people do match Batman, it's usually a feat for them, not a anti-feat for him.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"If their skill was low in the first place"

I mean. No? The Lone Swordsman used to scale was a shinobi like Wolf.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That is just a feat of upscaling. I could say that Batman has feats of casually yeeting entire armies (which he does to some degree), but it doesn't really amount to anything if we don't know their level of skill.

And their AP. The Lone Swordsman is decent in skill as a shinobi who has received training, and his AP is equal to Wolf's. Gyoubu yeets anyways.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

"If their skill was low in the first place"

I mean. No? The Lone Swordsman used to scale was a shinobi like Wolf.

My point is that you haven't given how skilled those individuals were, so it's not really a skill feat better than "he yeeted a lot of people", which is definitely less than Batman's skill.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

And their AP. The Lone Swordsman is decent in skill as a shinobi who has received training, and his AP is equal to Wolf's. Gyoubu yeets anyways.

And? That's not really a skill feat than. It just means he trained some. Batman easily beats people like that all the time in large groups.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

snip

Yes it is though. You have trained martial artists as this supposed fodder. Said martial artists are proven to be at Wolf and Gyoubu's level of attack potency. So we have proven that they are in fact skillful and maintain similar AP. Gyoubu yeets anyways. Through skill. Batman has no such feat. He fights lots of fodder and beats them, or has a fair fight against a small group of similar AP people. You saying "oh well they don't have a skill feat" would basically be the equivalent of me saying Bruce's martial arts aren't skills. Like what even.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

In that case, there are no actual skill feats here above heating a army of martial with good AP. Which isn't by any means a bad feat, but it's pales in comparison to Batman making people with millennia of experience look like chumps and beating armies of people who could harm them too, which is something much less skilled individuals in the Justice League have done for many years. Some like Wonder Woman and Superman have the same feat done for centuries continuously

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yes it is though. You have trained martial artists as this supposed fodder. Said martial artists are proven to be at Wolf and Gyoubu's level of attack potency. So we have proven that they are in fact skillful and maintain similar AP. Gyoubu yeets anyways. Through skill. Batman has no such feat. He fights lots of fodder and beats them, or has a fair fight against a small group of similar AP people. You saying "oh well they don't have a skill feat" would basically be the equivalent of me saying Bruce's martial arts aren't skills. Like what even.

That's not what I said anyway, and I'd even argue that's a pretty clear Strawman.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In that case, there are no actual skill feats here above heating a army of martial with good AP. Which isn't by any means a bad feat, but it's pales in comparison to Batman making people with millennia of experience look like chumps and beating armies of people who could harm them too, which is something much less skilled individuals in the Justice League have done for many years. Some like Wonder Woman and Superman have the same feat done for centuries co

What the hell? No it isn't. Gyoubu has the same AP as them, we've established this over multiple threads. A single one of those soldiers is a mini boss later in the game after you've killed Gyoubu and let them in. It is purely a skill feat, please listen when I'm saying things.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I just said it was a skill feat. That's a clear Strawman. I never said it wasn't a Skill feat, I said it was a worse skill feat than Batman's many, many examples of skill.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No you didn't.

You said it was done through AP, which it clearly wasn't, to lessen it compared to Batman's feats, who doesn't have such feats to compare to.

It isn't strawman. I'm pointing out a falsehood in your claims.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

No you didn't.

You said it was done through AP, which it clearly wasn't, to lessen it compared to Batman's feats, who doesn't have such feats to compare to.

It isn't strawman. I'm pointing out a falsehood in your claims.

It's a clear strawman, and I never stated anything about it being done through AP. I said they had comparable AP, the complete opposite. Which means that this is a clear straw man. Not only that, but half my post was dedicated to Batman's comparable feats.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am leaning for Batman here, but I'll hold any votes until later.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Bambu

I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying he beat them with good AP, I said he beat people who had good AP. Two very different things.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with @Mr. Bambu's points on the skills feats.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I agree with @Mr. Bambu's points on the skills feats.

His interpretation is based on a misunderstanding of my words, intentional or not.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So. Where are Batman's feats of rofling armies of equivalent attack potency/trained enemies and coming out on top?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I did misunderstand your point, but your feats for Batman are nonexistent.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

So. Where are Batman's feats of rofling armies of equivalent attack potency/trained enemies and coming out on top?

You mean other than the examples I gave above already? None, but as I've stated, anyone apwho can match Batman usually has such a event treated as a feat for them, and he's miles above people who do the similar feats over centuries and have four comparable AP enemies for centuries.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I did misunderstand your point, but your feats for Batman are nonexistent.

I literally gave numerous example of that within my first few posts. Skill is not just decided by crowd fights anyway. Skill can be determined in many other ways, such as 1v1 or by experience. Experience against fighting multiple fires at once is very different from fighting 1v1

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, and none of them compare to Gyoubu's feat. Your "better" skill feats are literally fighting a single enemy. Gyoubu rofls, Wolf rofls Gyoubu.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'll get back to this later, but just fighting off lots of enemies through skill isn't a insurmountable skill feat that can't be matched withou similar showings, unless your argument is that that's a reason for why he would be more skilled than people like Kharn the Betrayer, for example.

 

[Elizhaa]

Batman is stronger than the average humans in his verse already so defeating a large mob could easily beat aided by his AP.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Batman is stronger than the average humans in his verse already so defeating a large mob could easily beat aided by his AP.

That is not what I'm talking about whatsoever.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I agree. At literally no point have we held battling an army as the highest of skill feats, even though fighting a bunch of comparable people is one of the generally better skill feats that aren't outright absurd.

Even more, fighting a bunch of people is not the same as fighting 1 person. In the world of fiction where you can easily match people with guns because of skill and precise fighting skills, fighting a singular person isn't just gonna get rolled over because "lol numbers" by default.

 

[Elizhaa]

Batman is stronger than the average humans in his verse already so defeating a large mob could easily beat aided by his AP.

That is not what I'm talking about whatsoever.

I know what you meant the main problem is the AP gap in DC still matters.

You got to take it into account. The average weaker Vilain could easily have be 9-B. But 8-C weak villain is definitely stretching it for DC.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It isn't the highest. It is simply higher than anything. I'm saying it is higher than Bats fighting a singular enemy. You're just saying "Batman has higher skill feats" without anything really to substantiate that other than fighting someone. You're not giving qualitative value to the statement.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, none of these guys had guns. Lone Swordsman is the key here.

 

[Elizhaa]

It isn't the highest. It is simply higher than anything. I'm saying it is higher than Bats fighting a singular enemy. You're just saying "Batman has higher skill feats" without anything really to substantiate that other than fighting someone. You're not giving qualitative value to the statement.

I agree. Batman might be an Extraordinary Genius and known a lot of martial arts but he still needs the skills feats. The inferences are not alone enough.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Then we agree to disagree I'll assume, because that's not in anyway the highest sort of skill feat as far as I am concerned. Especially since the details and and context matters just as much if not more, and Gyobu is rather suited to take upon a good number of enemies.

Also Bambu, Yobo posted quite a big number of examples above, one of those even taking on all of his rogue's gallery and winning. You are even sweeping the stealth of Wolf and Batman under "evaded super senses", like anyone in Sekiro can pull a Superman and hear across the entire planet, pick up and recognize heart beats or widen his stare to planetary levels. Martian Manhunter can easily just scan every mind on the earth without issue, yet he can't find Batman even when he is on the same general area if Batman doesn't want himself found. It just feels you are the one playing down the absurdity of this.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

My counter argument to Bambu will come later.

 

[Elizhaa]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl, most of Batman's best feats are via Prep time there. Also, the argument is one who got the best fighting skills or skill gaps and nothing else.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Oh yes, all of those skill feats fighting people up above are certainly only with prep time, aren't they?

Please don't tell me you are buying into the prep time absurdity Elizhaa, Batman has matched people with absurd levels of experience and skill, or even groups of those, with no real prep. There's literally no prep at all in that scan Yobo posted above of Batman dealing with his rogue's gallery. He even kicked Red Hood around a second time with none of it.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It was Red Hood who had prep in the first scan, not Batman

 

[Elizhaa]

Oh yes, all of those skill feats fighting people up above are certainly only with prep time, aren't they?
Please don't tell me you are buying into the prep time absurdity Elizhaa, Batman has matched people with absurd levels of experience and skill, or even groups of those, with no real prep. There's literally no prep at all in that scan Yobo posted above of Batman dealing with his rogue's gallery. He even kicked Red Hood around a second time with none of it.

The question is taking what I see out of context. I said: " most of Batman's best feats are via Prep time there."

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Then we agree to disagree I'll assume, because that's not in anyway the highest sort of skill feat as far as I am concerned. Especially since the details and and context matters just as much if not more, and Gyobu is rather suited to take upon a good number of enemies.
Also Bambu, Yobo posted quite a big number of examples above, one of those even taking on all of his rogue's gallery and winning. You are even sweeping the stealth of Wolf and Batman under "evaded super senses", like anyone in Sekiro can pull a Superman and hear across the entire planet, pick up and recognize heart beats or widen his stare to planetary levels. Martian Manhunter can easily just scan every mind on the earth without issue, yet he can't find Batman even when he is on the same general area if Batman doesn't want himself found. It just feels you are the one playing down the absurdity of this.

You clearly haven't read what I've posted or simply have latched onto a single facet of my points.

Either way, stealth I've admitted are the only points Batman has going for him outside of a few easily countered tools. Even then. Planetary hearing is a matter of range. The heart beats is valid but isn't a winning factor. This isn't a huge point, you're just ignoring the advantages.

As for prep time. I claimed prep time only when Batman beats people much higher in AP than himself, which was brought up earlier. I have said Bats is capable of beating a handful of people of comparable AP in outright skill. Wolf simply has more. Ergo his feat is quantifiably superior. "Agree to disagree" is a form of admitting this without backing down in the face of all facts.

And don't dogpile Elizhaa, please. It's true that Bats' best feats are via prep time. That really can't be denied.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yeah, but his best feats aren't what are being presented here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I didn't say they were. I did say that Wolf's feats are flat out better in terms of skill, which seems to be politely ignored, oddly enough.