Master Combatants: Batman vs Wolf

[Mr. Bambu]

Tranq darts aren't immensely relevant either way. He does have them, they're listed, the profile just doesn't have it all down right, it seems.

 

[Elizhaa]

Multiple sleep grenades, freeze ray are things I felt like Batman would have on his profile but he does not.

He does have freezing batarangs batering though.

Teleportation looks applicable to himself and it is not like Wolf would make it easier for Batman to used it as BFR.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Jesus so many massive walls of text.

Ok so while it is true that SBA makes him willing to kill that shouldnt change his starting move, unless bloodlusted, which is KO and Incap, now if he cant do that then he'll go for the kill but he like I said him being willing to kill shouldnt change his In-Character starting move.

 

[Elizhaa]

Jesus so many massive walls of text.
Ok so while it is true that SBA makes him willing to kill but that shouldnt change his starting move, unless bloodlusted, which is KO and Incap, now if he cant do that then he'll go for the kill but he like I said him being willing to kill shouldnt change his In-Character starting move.

I agree toward Standard Battle Assumptions regard the strategy:

• State of mind: In character, but willing to kill. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't. Furthermore characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.

Only as Bloodlust will chracters be willing to kill initally or quickly

 

[Yobo_Blue]

If Wolf doesn't have any really good resistance to Pressure Points, there isn't anything stopping Batma from going Kenshiro

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Also, Batman's inconsistent showings putting him somewhere in the middle is a Golden Mean Fallacy. As this wiki accepts it, Batman is the most skilled individual on Earth as he has consistent showings and statements of it. Poor decisions and portrayals on a writer's part that don't work as consistently are thus discarded as PIS. We do not take them into account.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Batman FRA

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Multiple sleep grenades, freeze ray are things I felt like Batman would have on his profile but he does not.

He does have freezing batarangs batering though.

Teleportation looks applicable to himself and it is not like Wolf would make it easier for Batman to used it as BFR.

He does, and I'm fairly certain he has multiple knock out grenades listed already.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Higher AP doesn't mean much anyway, considering Batman's track record of beating people with Higher AP regularly.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

No, nevertheless, Batman does not have Sleep Manipulation on his profile.

He does.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Batman will go for incap while Wolf will go for the kill? Easier to kill than to incap.

Deathblow will one-shot Batman if he is caught within it.

Doesn't matter if Batman is a Master of 127 Martial Arts if Wolf or anyone else has better skills on one.

Wolf also has the Ap over Batman.

Type 4 Immorality is also something Batman can't do against but as he won't kill it won't come in play.

Wolf wins.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Batman will go for incap while Wolf will go for the kill? Easier to kill than to incap.

Deathblow will one-shot Batman if he is caught within it.

Doesn't matter if Batman is a Master of 127 Martial Arts if Wolf or anyone else has better skills on one.

Wolf also has the Ap over Batman.

Type 4 Immorality is also something Batman can't do against but as he won't kill it won't come in play.

Wolf wins.

>Easier to kill than incap

That's a joke, right? Incapacitation is not inherently harder than killing, especially when a character's entire arsenal is based on it.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Batman's 127 martial arts is just a example of a skill feat, and people fixating on it ignores the dozens of other skill feats and training he's had. Batman has modifed, advanced, upgraded, and improved every single one of his martial arts and blended it into one styles, so it's going to be 1 style vs 1 style anyway.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I think @Mr. Bambu is correct; Wolf has the larger skill advantages here. Also, Batman's only method that I see via incap with Sealing (Knows magic that allows him to seal someone in a crystal).

His Mind Manipulation (Can hypnotize people) looks combats inaplicable. I think everything else, Wolf can resurrect from ot heal from. So, I am voting for Wolf FRA.

This is blatantly false though. His Standard Arsenal key has dozens of methods of incapacitation listed

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Cyro none of them seem like a IC thing for Batman to do tho

They are. His stuff is entirely based around not killing foes.

 

[Zaratthustra]

When you go for Kill, you won't hold back involuntary or not while for incap you'll do. It's something instinctual, something that Batman still won't let go if he is not Bloodlusted. If you think you can incap someone faster than you can kill them, you're clearly wrong.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

When you go for Kill, you won't hold back involuntary or not while for incap you'll do. It's something instinctual, something that Batman still won't let go if he is not Bloodlusted. If you think you can incap someone faster than you can kill them, you're clearly wrong.

That's definitely wrong. When you're skilled or have the ooowers and abilities for it, incap is even easier. You're thinking of incap as holding back to knock someone out, when I'm reality it's any sort of technique that can defeat the foe without killing them. Generalizations like that ignore obvious cases such as a mindhax ability versus a single punch. Obviously the former is more efficient. Batman has numerous abilities that make incapacitation more applicable.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I'm talking about the actual combatants not others so the fight it's in character.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'm talking about the actual combatants not others so the fight it's in character.

And? That doesn't address any of the actual arguments.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Anyway, I want one good reason why I should keep those three Wolf votes in the OP since so many of them use the Golden Mean fallacy and are pretty obviously purposefully misinterpreting Batman's skill set

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Can some one give me a short version on why each character would win?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Well, most of the arguments center around who is more skilled, so that needs to be concluded before anything else.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

But generally it's "Batman incaps in character bypassing all resurrection stuff vs Wolf has better AP and Deathblows on top of resurrection"

 

[Yobo_Blue]

So far though, many of the arguments against Batman have either no taken into account the full profile or have been using the Golden Mean fallacy.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Has anyone brought up Precog and Instinctive Reaction?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'm fairly certain I have, but it hasn't been addressed I don't think.

Furthermore, there was also the argument that Wolf can use enhanced senses to find a hiding Batman.

 

[Zaratthustra]

You seem to favorize Batman, why should the votes be not taken in account when people brought good arguments.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

You seem to favorize Batman, why should the votes be not taken in account when people brought good arguments.

Because those arguments are entirely based around the Golden Mean fallacy?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Also, please don't use easy to spot fallacies like that one. They're really easy to point out and just clog up thread space.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I don't appreciate you Poisoning the Well either

 

[Zaratthustra]

And you mean to tell me that those that voted for Wolf brought only fallacies and not stated feats/arguments from the game? Sorry to say but you can't mot Wolf's feats are fallacies with those arguments.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

And you mean to tell me that those that voted for Wolf brought only fallacies and not stated feats/arguments from the game? Sorry to say but you can't mot Wolf's feats are fallacies with those arguments.

I'm referring to the arguments about Batman's capabilities made by Bambu which one of the other votes is based on.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Wolf's feats in this case would only be sufficient if the claims about Batman were true, which they are not since they are built around fallacies in this case.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, Batman's inconsistent showings putting him somewhere in the middle is a Golden Mean Fallacy. As this wiki accepts it, Batman is the most skilled individual on Earth as he has consistent showings and statements of it. Poor decisions and portrayals on a writer's part that don't work as consistently are thus discarded as PIS. We do not take them into account.

It'd be a Golden Mean fallacy if I said let's average it out. But it isn't Golden Mean to take the more consistent showings, it's actually the rules for this wiki in regards to verses as inconsistent as Marvel and DC specifically. Even that said, nothing you showed puts him in comparability to Wolf's skill feat scaling to Gyoubu so moot point.

And the whole "Well batman beats people with higher AP regularly" bit bothers me too. He's also beaten by people lower than him (Joker is the prime example). Bats is one who thrives on prep time. He lacks such prep time here, and his profile even states his AP is much higher (4-B) given such time.

I believe Arsenal's point was more in line with no more IC to use than, say, punching an enemy. Which they aren't. Bats goes for martial arts and a handful of gadgets more than the rest of his stuff.

You should keep the three votes because it isn't Golden Mean, it is using a consistent basis. Again, wiki standard. It would be Golden Mean if I said "Well, he has two possible APs, 80,000 tons of TNT and 0.5 tons of TNT, so we'll assume 40,000.25 tons of TNT". That's taking an average. But the wiki disregards blatant outliers and absurd downplays of strength.

Moving on from "something something all of you are wrong because fallacy".

 

[Yobo_Blue]

You'd be right about it being a fallacy fallacy if your argument wasn't entirely based on it, and you quite explicitly stated that "he must be somewhere in between". The fact still remains that in his most common showings he is portrayed on that level, so we accept him as being that level.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Those "handful of gadgets" are what is being used to incap here anyway. And I have yet to see anything that comes close to Batman's level of skill.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You'd be right about it being a fallacy fallacy if your argument wasn't entirely based on it, and you quite explicitly stated that "he must be somewhere in between". The fact still remains that in his most common showings he is portrayed on that level, so we accept him as being that level.

My argument isn't entirely based on it. Again, none of the scans you showed, regardless of how inconsistent they'd be in context (not really caring anymore), don't stack up to Gyoubu's feat, which Wolf upscales from. So skill is handily in Wolf's ballpark.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Even if you want to say that Batman isn't the most skilled combatant in the DC Earth, which is basically a integral part of his character, he still makes the rest of the League look like chumps in the skill department, despite them of having stupid levels of skill as well.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

My argument isn't entirely based on it. Again, none of the scans you showed, regardless of how inconsistent they'd be in context (not really caring anymore), don't stack up to Gyoubu's feat, which Wolf upscales from. So skill is handily in Wolf's ballpark.

You've just stated that he has a feat which makes him more skilled than Batman. Burden of proof is on you to explain and show that that is true, which you have yet to do.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Those "handful of gadgets" are what is being used to incap here anyway. And I have yet to see anything that comes close to Batman's level of skill.

Then you haven't been paying attention. Look at what I've said.

Batman has a lot of martial arts and can take on a lot of other martial artists, sometimes a few on his own physical level at a time (other times, not so much).

Wolf is > Gyoubu who can defeat a literal army of equal-AP people in terms of skill alone and was going to do so for a long time until we roll in and kill him.

Wolf has the higher skill feat by a considerable margin, with Bats having the advantage only in number of ways he can be lesser.