Master Combatants: Batman vs Wolf

[Yobo_Blue]

Please stop adding random votes to the OP Bambu. Zara's vote was throughly debunked, even if yours wasn't.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Your votes have been debunked and they remain.

I can get him here again to update his vote, if you like. He just didn't respond after voting, since it really wasn't debunked. You countered the whole easier-to-kill, which doesn't matter since Bats is willing to kill here. Other than that Zarat reiterated a lot of my points. Your other "debunk" claimed that the Wolf defense merely fixated on 127 martial arts- to be clear, I have focused only on the best feat presented. Managing to fight a single other opponent is hardly a skill feat.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Their votes are under contention, not debunked, there is a clear difference

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Your votes have been debunked and they remain.

I can get him here again to update his vote, if you like. He just didn't respond after voting, since it really wasn't debunked. You countered the whole easier-to-kill, which doesn't matter since Bats is willing to kill here. Other than that Zarat reiterated a lot of my points. Your other "debunk" claimed that the Wolf defense merely fixated on 127 martial arts- to be clear, I have focused only on the best feat presented. Managing to fight a single other opponent is hardly a skill feat.

Why would fighting people and easily beating people with hundreds to thousands of years of experience not be a skill feat? That is literally the definition of a skill feat.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And I have just put Zarat's vote under contention. Because, again, it isn't debunked. He just didn't respond. Forgive me but I'll be adding the legitimate vote back now.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Your votes have been debunked and they remain.

I can get him here again to update his vote, if you like. He just didn't respond after voting, since it really wasn't debunked. You countered the whole easier-to-kill, which doesn't matter since Bats is willing to kill here. Other than that Zarat reiterated a lot of my points. Your other "debunk" claimed that the Wolf defense merely fixated on 127 martial arts- to be clear, I have focused only on the best feat presented. Managing to fight a single other opponent is hardly a skill feat.

That is not what I stated at all. And I did in fact elaborate on that, and that is by no means the best skill feat that has been presented.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

And I have just put Zarat's vote under contention. Because, again, it isn't debunked. He just didn't respond. Forgive me but I'll be adding the legitimate vote back now.

Omission is considered assent due to burden of proof.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You claim it isn't a skill feat when in fact it is. You just choose to ignore it or disregard it for reasons I cannot fathom.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

You claim it isn't a skill feat when in fact it is. You just choose to ignore it or disregard it for reasons I cannot fathom.

I legitimately have no clue what you're even referring to at this point.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Everything I have mentioned so far has been affirming Batman's superior skill feats, not anything to do with Wolf since I admittedly don't know the character that well.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The martial arts. It really is a skill feat. It just isn't one so great as Wolf's.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Everything I have mentioned so far has been affirming Batman's superior skill feats, not anything to do with Wolf since I admittedly don't know the character that well.

That doesn't make any sense. You're claiming Batman is better (again, with no qualitative skill feat that actually puts him higher than Wolf) despite not knowing Wolf.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The martial arts. It really is a skill feat. It just isn't one so great as Wolf's.

And it is just one skill feat. You have yet to explain why Wolf beating someone who beat a army with skill is such a insurmountable skill feat when compared to Batman's rogues gallery.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That doesn't make any sense. You're claiming Batman is better (again, with no qualitative skill feat that actually puts him higher than Wolf) despite not knowing Wolf.

Because it is up to you to prove Wolf's superior skill, not for me to debunk them. And I have given values, with various scans and numerical values for experience. This is turning into a Ad Hominem

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Your argument so far has amounted to "Wolf beat a person who had a feat of beating a army of people using only his skill advantage", which is a good skill feat, but is nothing compared to people who have spent 25000 years learning combat, 700 years of honing combat abilities as the leader of the most skilled group of assassins in the world, and centuries fighting against foes that can harm them reasonably, all skill feats Batman scales above. Without prep.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Other members of the Justice League regularly contend with people who have been training their entire (extended lifespan) lives for combat, aliens who have fought in wars for thousands of years, and any number of cosmic warriors that have skill feats that are massive. And Batman is still by far the most skilled individual out of all of them, and each one of them always goes to him for training.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. A single skill feat in a single game is sufficient. That said, obviously Wolf has other feats. Gyoubu's is the greatest and the best measuring stick of Wolf's skill. The fact that he defeated Isshin and Genichiro, both of whom are also superior to Gyoubu, are notable. The fact that he beat the Divine Dragon, literally a group of immortal deity-like creatures, all of whom defended the immortal waters, is also a good feat if your type of "skill" is just "long lifespan lol".

2. I have proven Wolf's superior skill in a quantitative fashion. The fact that you merely ignore it is not actually my problem.

3. My argument is that Wolf has Immortality Type 4 to just rofl Bats, a means to simply one-shot him, has a superior skill feat, a comparable arsenal, the higher stats out of the two of them, etc etc. Your argument revolves solely around Batman having better skill because time lol, which again, time =/= skill (good meme though).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Other members of the Justice League regularly contend with people who have been training their entire (extended lifespan) lives for combat, aliens who have fought in wars for thousands of years, and any number of cosmic warriors that have skill feats that are massive. And Batman is still by far the most skilled individual out of all of them, and each one of them always goes to him for training.

Again.

I don't know when people will understand it.

But.

Time =/= Skill.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Perhaps, but time is a major factor in skill, especially when most of that time is spent in combat. We use time in combat as the primary measurement of skill in every single versus match, there is no reason this should be any different.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Again.

I don't know when people will understand it.

But.

Time =/= Skill.

It isn't.

Time spent fighting = experience fighting

Experience = skill

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Shown Feats >> Time.

Time can lead to good feats. Present them if you like. But so far you haven't, really.

EDIT: Also no we don't. We use time as the measuring stick for skill in the same way that we used 5x as the old One-Shot thing. That's just a group of people claiming it is so. Not the actually recognized measuring stick.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The problem is that Batman is still a primarily incapacitation based fighter, even if he is willing to kill be SBA. Wolf's resurrection won't help if he is not killed.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Shown Feats >> Time.

Time can lead to good feats. Present them if you like. But so far you haven't, really.

EDIT: Also no we don't. We use time as the measuring stick for skill in the same way that we used 5x as the old One-Shot thing. That's just a group of people claiming it is so. Not the actually recognized measuring stick.

As I've said, time is a way to measure experience, which in and of itself is a skill feat.

Yeah, but if you want to be technical our intelligence measurements aren't official either. These types of measurements have to be decided in VS Threads, and they work because any number of arguments have been made to explain why it works. Batman is already considered a top fighter in every single form of combat besides guns, and even then he's a master marksman. And group fights are by no means the only measuring stick for skill either.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Just being "immortal isn't enough". As you've stated yourself, time isn't equal to skill, it's time spent in combat. So not only do we not know how long they've been active, but we do not know how much time they actually spent in combat, where most of Batman's foes and allies that have skill feats have or scale to those who have spent most of these long periods of time in combat or training.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The problem is that Batman is still a primarily incapacitation based fighter, even if he is willing to kill be SBA. Wolf's resurrection won't help if he is not killed.

And this is true, I absolutely fully believe that Batman would go for incap after he kills Wolf (if he manages that at all). But that assumes Wolf doesn't instantly Deathblow him after he dies since... well he can do that.

The second post is easily dealt with by saying again, Time =/= Skill. A feat of skill is always superior as it has some actual value aside from "MY undefeatable immortal martial artist master of the universe that I killed lived longer than YOUR etc etc". Intelligence isn't being debated here, doesn't need to be. Batman holds that solidly. If we were to debate it, I'm sure you could get a feat to prove it if I really pestered you for it. But it isn't relevant, is it? What is relevant is that Wolf has a better skill feat than Batman. Time hasn't given him that.

Time spent in combat also isn't skill. Just as an incredibly causal off-topic example, I can beat down a Generation 100 in Titanfall despite being Generation 5. So that still doesn't surpass an actual skill feat if Batman lacks such a thing.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Restraint Bolas

Restraint Grenades for example

Handcuffs

Hardened Foam Gu

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I doubt Batman would even go for the kill at all. Batman simply doesn't do that, and most of his gear is geared towards not doing exactly that. I don't see why we would assume he should suddenly in a in character fight.

Except fighting foes with combat experience on that level is a skill feat. Experience by definition is a major defining point in combat skill.

I don't know much about Titandall, and your explanation doesn't really explain much, so it sounds like Game Mechanics if they are explicitly supposed to be much weaker. I'm sure Wolf can get yeeted by Random Fodder in Sekiro too.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Batman keeps character by SBA. Burden of proof is on you to prove that he kills people in character, not on me to disprove it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The question is taking what I see out of context. I said: " most of Batman's best feats are via Prep time there."

Then be more clear next time. We are discussing the skill differences and none of the feats brought up for Batman have to do with prep time so I can only either assume you think they were done with prep or are talking about feats that we have never brought up in the first place, and sounds a little too close to dismissing all the feats brought up "because they aren't the best".

@Bambu

I have to wonder if you've done the same claiming we are putting down Wolf's skill feat. I only gave a microcosm of what it feels you've been doing for Batman's feats, because I can't call this anything but downplay or misinterpretation of the feats. I've ignored nothing, merely pointed out how I find myself flabbergasted you compare the enhanced senses of animals to someone that could hear a heartbeat on the opposite side of the world.

No, I simply agree to disagree to the fact that battling many is instantly superior in nature as a skill feat. That's downright wrong as far as I care, at least without including context. Wolf, unlike the Lone Swordsman and companions, has a retinue of tools already at his disposals, no less of which being the Shinobi Firecrackers and obviously not forgetting the Grapple Hook which lets him close the distance to Gyoubu in ways none of those swordsman could replicate just jumping around a heavily armored dude with a heavily armored horse and a spear which he liberally uses in wide sweeping arcing movements. I mean jesus, one of his moves is pulling it in circles around himself through the cord at the end of the spear. Gyoubu is incredibly skilled yes, but Wolf doesn't just skill overpowers him, and Gyoubu even has the perfect kind of resources to battle many enemies.

So yes, it's more than "entire army of people just as skilled, still wins through skill".

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...kek.

Before I go into any actual explanation and debate against a vs debating darling, @Yobo Generation = Prestige. Basically a single Generation in multiplayer is equivalent to 50 levels.

Gen 100 = 5000 levels

Gen 5 = 250 levels

It's a matter of experience against other players.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Noted on those. I'd argue both are more than skilled in dodging that actually hitting each other with projectiles is unlikely.

Batman also is willing to kill by SBA, which is the only change SBA offers and the only one that removes Batman's unwillingness to kill. So.

@Lancelot

No I didn't. I've continously called Batman's stealth superior, I just said it wasn't a deciding factor. Two of the three things you listed for Supes' enhanced senses were just range, just bad examples. I called his senses superior outright.

Again. Agreeing to disagree means you have no means to actually dismantle my argument but vote against it regardless.

It isn't. It is an entire army of skilled people, wins through skill, ergo much, much superior in terms of sheer skill. Painting it otherwise is untruthful.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

...kek.

Before I go into any actual explanation and debate against a vs debating darling, @Yobo Generation = Prestige. Basically a single Generation in multiplayer is equivalent to 50 levels.

Gen 100 = 5000 levels

Gen 5 = 250 levels

It's a matter of experience against other players.

I would say it's because in many sports and martial arts, an individual has to pass through a curious phase where they have to surrender their natural athleticism in order to learn how to execute the movements of that art or sport. Consequently, a beginner performs better than someone who is just initiated because the beginner doesn't suffer the Centipede's Dilemma. For example, a person who has never lifted an epee will have a certain natural athleticism which will help them make up for having no technique. After a few lessons, performance goes down as the beginner is frozen by thinking about what they are doing. Passing through this step is one of the necessary sacrifices for mastering the art.

(this is plagiarism btw]

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Fighting games are no different.

When it comes to playing a Fighting Game, such as Street Fighter, the more experienced player will know all the tricks to every move on every character while someone with little to no experience in the fighting game genre may resort to Button Mashing. The newbie player may actually win a few rounds against an experienced player this way just because they managed to mash up enough buttons to pull off a series of moves to stop their opponent while the experienced player is frustrated since they can't find an opening to attack in or block against all the spammed attacks. Not all fighting games fall under this and may have counters against players who randomly mashes buttons.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

As we've stated, Batman's unwillingness to kill has disappeared, but his willingness to restrain his foe instead is unchanged. Hence, since most of his arsenal is dedicated to this anyway, he will likely start with that.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

So unless Wolf is a beginner, which I doubt, he wouldn't have that advantage that allows for th occasional defeat of a more experienced foe.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Yobo That ain't even a beginner though. In terms of just actual gameplay time, it takes me about twelve hours from beginning of Generation to reach the end. This means that, at the high-end of Gen 5, I'm juuuuust about 3 days total time logged. In terms of just constant actual playing that really is far from a beginner.

And, to be fair, fighting games are their own breed. I openly admit any time I win is dumb luck and can be consistent dumb luck- I've gotten like seven wins in a row on Killer Instinct against people who owned/played the game just by ******* around.

It's possible that Bats will go for both. I don't think he'll kill Wolf regardless due to my reasons above, but you get the gist of it. I'm gonna go to bed now if I can, would like to rest up before work tonight, so uh. Ye.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl, noted, I think you made a Straw Ma with I said earlier too and you should make efforts no repeat them.

I think the examples that you brought for batman looks to be via prep time as you said Martian man hunters could hear a heart mile away yet couldn't hear Batman's, from Occams's Razor.

Also, the point is still differences via combats. I am not saying the skills gap can't be closed with equipments. I it is just that it looks large.

We can't understand what you mean. It may be prudent to try and clean up some of that grammar.

 

[Elizhaa]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl, noted, I think you made Straw Mans with what I said earlier too and you should make efforts not repeat them.

I think the examples that you brought for Batman looks to be via prep time as you said Martian manhunters could hear a heartbeat mile away yet couldn't hear Batman's, from Occams's Razor.

Also, the main point is skill differences with combats. I am not saying the skills gaps can't be closed with equipments, it is just that it looks quite large.

Edit: Noted.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Martian Manhunter can't hear his heart beat from a mile away, because, among other things, Batman has a gadget that hides his heart beat that is standard equipment, though all their other senses he can hide from easily, even hearing to a lesser degree without it.

 

[Elizhaa]

Martian Manhunter can't hear his heart beat from a mile away, because, among other things, Batman has a gadget that hides his heart beat that is standard equipment, though all their other senses he can hide from easily, even hearing to a lesser degree without it.

Nothing about hiding being able his heartbeat is on his profile, though.

Standard Equipment: Body armor, batarangs, smoke bombs, flashbangs, gas bombs, radio uplink, batmobile (often armed with missiles and such, sometimes lasers), grappling hook gun, radio trackers, utility belt which contains various gadgets, weapons, devices, and materials'