Master Combatants: Batman vs Wolf

[CryoTheMayo]

If he dies multiple times, he steals another nearby person's blood and inflict Dragonrot on them, a lethal disease

So then Batman would be having his blood stolen as he's the only one around?
In which case it would be win via incap.

SBA says this takes place in New York, Central Park. SBA don't mention population so I'd assume that means it's as populated as IRL New York.

Again, Batman has Freeze Ray, Tranq darts, Sleep grenades and Teleportation in his Standard Arsenal. He could trap Wolf, preventing him from fighting. Thus winning via incap.

"Victory Conditions: Killing the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions."

Batman has absolutely zero reason to kill Wolf. He would only have to do that if it's his last possible option. Batman would never go for the kill in-character. To my understanding, the rules only mean that Batman would kill if he has absolutely no other option (even though IC he still wouldn't kill if he had no other option). As a result, Batman would aim for all of the incap win conditions before considering the kill condition.

So it's a martial artist that specialises in non-lethal takedowns VS a shinobi that has mastered killing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm assuming by the votes that this is ending in incon, regardless of my points, so I sorta disengaged, but I will punt some of these away.

Batman has a reason to kill Wolf in that Wolf will waste no time in not killing Batman, likely by stabbing him through the throat or impaling him on a sword. Bats is willing to kill, so really, that still isn't an argument.

Dragonrot is more likely to affect those you associate with. I don't think Bats will kill Wolf enough times to trigger it, but if he does, Bats will be the first to get it. Don't consider this reasoning to win, at least not in the short term, but that's just how it works.

The other stuff I've covered, a lot get undone by a single shinobi prosthetic (loaded umbrella). At least a few of those he really wouldn't use either, IIRC, looking at you, freeze ray.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Batman has a reason to kill Wolf in that Wolf will waste no time in not killing Batman, likely by stabbing him through the throat or impaling him on a sword. Bats is willing to kill, so really, that still isn't an argument.

This is all in-character. Batman has actively been attacked with lethal intent countless times in his career and rarely, if ever, responds with lethal force. Batman's last strategy would involve killing or lethal force. All of his preceding strategies would be non-lethal. In other words, he won't kill Wolf unless he is legitimately forced.

Even if he kills Wolf, he will react to it via his instinctive reactions, realise Wolf has some form of Regenerationn and would thus, then, focus on winning via incap.

There is absolutely zero circumstance where Batman would be compelled to kill Wolf more than twice, at the absolute maximum.

Dragonrot is more likely to affect those you associate with. I don't think Bats will kill Wolf enough times to trigger it, but if he does, Bats will be the first to get it.

Yeah, it's doubtful it will effect Batman quickly. I mean, I'm pretty sure it only effects friendly NPCs in the game itself. I'm not sure if the lore establishes that it would also influence enemies that Wolf continuously fights.

Batman could trigger it if he sets up a trap that puts Wolf in a death loop but, like I've said already, it's extremely doubtful that Batman would ever conceive of that notion when he loathes killing and would quickly realize that Wolf is regenerative or immortal after one or two kills.

The other stuff I've covered, a lot get undone by a single shinobi prosthetic (loaded umbrella). At least a few of those he really wouldn't use either, IIRC, looking at you, freeze ray.

None of Wolf's other prosthetics seem to be as effective as his Loaded Umbrella. Can he attack while using it? How quickly can he deploy it? If it leaves him as a turtle I can see how Batman can bypass it or win against it.

I'm also sorry to say this but, Freeze Ray is listed under Batman's standard arsenal. So he has complete access to it. He has no reason to not use it. The fact that Batman uses it would already imply it's non-lethal so there is no real justification for him to avoid it in-character.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Nope.

No more long walls of text.

It's gonna end up incon either way, methinks.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I will clear up the Shinobi Prosthetic thing, so the info can be useful later.

All of them are pretty quick deploys and undeploys- many are reactionary, including the Umbrella. No turtling in Sekiro, I'm afraid get that weak dark souls shit outta here, no turtles in my dojo

He doesn't use it much in-character, for the freeze ray. Having it isn't actively using it. Would also like to point that out for future reference.

Now let's wait for a vote or two to drop in and let this fall to incon.

 

[Momolilya]

@Yobo Daily reminder that thanks to the massive inconsistencies of Batman and if anyone felt so inclined, you could pull up literally dozens upon dozens of scans that show complete opposite situations, in which he gets outplayed by people like Joker and Quin, outfought by people like Bane or even Killer Croc of all people

Where did the idea of Batman being outfought by Bane come from? Bane literally never managed to beat Batman other than their first encounter against a weakened Batman. Bane released every Arkham cellsmate and cause Batman deprived of sleep and was completely worn out after returning every single villains back to Arkham.

Unless you're referring to post-Flashpoint, where their first encounter was when Bane had a version of venom that can hurt even Superman. And Rebirth where Batman first casually beat up Bane at first, which caused Bane to go back to using venom. Bane still managed to lose to a half dead Batman who was only half dead because he intentionally let Bane beat him up to stall time as part of his plan.

 

[Aridwolverine]

None of Wolf's other prosthetics seem to be as effective as his Loaded Umbrella. Can he attack while using it? How quickly can he deploy it? If it leaves him as a turtle I can see how Batman can bypass it or win against it.

Actually there are a lot of prosthetic tools that are effective.

Especially the Aged Feather Mist Raven tool which allows Sekiro to instantly teleport the moment before getting hit. Sekiro instantly teleport behind, on top, or right under Batman's guard and attack while he's wide open.

There's also the Phantom Kunai that summons phantom butterflies that pursue targets and ignores the targets guard. The freeze ray wouldn't work on them either as they are just phantoms. The freeze ray would pass right through them.

Or he could just throw other shurikens at him. Batman freezes them at midair and then what? He gets hit by frozen shurikens that could potentially knock the freeze ray out of his hand or possible jam it.

There's also firecrackers that would stun Batman and prevent him from doing anything, allowing Sekiro to go for the kill

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Isn't that pretty much illusions though, the butterfly kunais I mean. "I produces a special sound, which makes phantom butterflies appear."

Even the drop from Lady Butterfly to make the upgrade speaks of her training in the arts of illusion on Usui's forest. Why would this affect Batman?

 

[Aridwolverine]

Isn't that pretty much illusions though, the butterfly kunais I mean. "I produces a special sound, which makes phantom butterflies appear."

Even the drop from Lady Butterfly to make the upgrade speaks of her training in the arts of illusion on Usui's forest. Why would this affect Batman?

They physically deal damage

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Illusions that feel so real they deal damage isn't even a rare trope in media.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Especially the Aged Feather Mist Raven tool which allows Sekiro to instantly teleport the moment before getting hit. Sekiro instantly teleport behind, on top, or right under Batman's guard and attack while he's wide open.

Precognition and Instinctive Reactions. Batman also has a teleporter that enables him to evade attacks.

There's also the Phantom Kunai that summons phantom butterflies that pursue targets and ignores the targets guard. The freeze ray wouldn't work on them either as they are just phantoms. The freeze ray would pass right through them.

Batman can see through illusions, has absurd pain resistance and has consistently fought and defeated Scarecrow, who utilises far more dangerous mental manipulation.

Or he could just throw other shurikens at him. Batman freezes them at midair and then what? He gets hit by frozen shurikens that could potentially knock the freeze ray out of his hand or possible jam it.

Why are you assuming Batman would react with Freeze Ray? Batman has his own shurikens, with several variants (Heat, Freeze, Explosive, etc) along with the basic, vanilla, shuriken. He can also dodge bullet fire on instinct so...

There's also firecrackers that would stun Batman and prevent him from doing anything, allowing Sekiro to go for the kill

Not exactly an esoteric ability. Batman has his own flashbangs, precognition, instinctive reactions and the firecrackers would require Wolf to be in melee range to use them in the first place, whereas Batman can use his flashbangs from a distance.

I won't deny a use, but I will absolutely argue that Wolf's prosthetics will struggle to work against Batman. The ones that do work, have effects that Batman has better variants of (Teleportation and Flashbangs).

 

[CCMac27]

I vote Wolf very high-dif.

 

[ExodusNexus]

Batman FRA

 

[QrowBarr]

Jesus, this is close.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think this is a confirmed inconclusive. Don't know when grace began tho.

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

Just Do it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is incon. I'll close it a day after Exodus' comment to be fair. So... 10 hours.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Explain for me something.

Why can't Batman use his stealth (that can evade the senses of Superman) to slink away then use his incap tools (Sleep grenade, Tranq darts, Freeze ray or even a stealth takedown with pressure point) and then win via Wolf being knocked out for an hour?

What is the fundamental argument that stops Batman from winning via this strategy, which is very in-character for him to do?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

still the stealth thing

Because Wolf has similar win-cons. Fixating purely on Bats' doesn't change this fact. Both have been argued to incon. So I'm leaving it there.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No, he doesn't.

Batman evades the senses of Superman. Wolf has no feats to indicate he is as skilled as Batman regarding stealth. Wolf's win conditions revolve around killing Batman. Batman's win cons revolve around Batman knocking Wolf out. Batman has instinctive reactions and precognition to enable him to dodge Wolf and sneak away (which he has done countless times in-front of people) and he has several ranged methods to take out Wolf.

So, again. Why can't Batman just sneak away and do a stealth takedown?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

See literally the entire thread.

Gonna go to bed here soon. This point has been spammed to death throughout the entire thread- literally just stealth, and like I said, it's questionable as to whether it's superior enough to even glean a reliable win condition.

This is an incon.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Nothing in this thread approaches the argument of Batman's stealth takedowns or his superior stealth. The closest would be you disregarding Batman's stealth entirely in-favor of claiming that it is 'questionable' if Batman is superior, despite Batman having vastly superior feats of stealth.

So, yeah. I'm questioning the inconclusive status of the match when the votes rely upon your arguments, based upon the argumentation of whether or not Batman can simply sneak away and knock out Wolf.

Hell, you even completely dismissed Batman's Freeze Ray as, essentially, out of character. Even though he has used it in-universe against grunts and has it in his standard arsenal. There is also no reason why Batman's sleep grenades wouldn't work against Wolf, at all. I can see why the Tranq darts wouldn't work directly (due to Wolf's deflections) but from a position of stealth? Wolf has no way of reacting to a stealth dart.

To reiterate, the arguments for Batman's takedown methods haven't been approached, even remotely and his stealth has been massively downplayed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Didn't say it did, boyo. I said we addressed it and I said it wasn't as big of an advantage as presented. Not enough to reliably win, at least. A debate doesn't require perfect countering of the other side. Otherwise 's a stomp, probably. In this case, votes are split because Wolf also has win conditions via scaling chain of skill. Even if you'd rather ignore that, it exists.

A debate is for convincing folks. Folks are convinced in a 50/50 split. Not much point in me furthering debate. Everything you've said has been talked about at some point in the 200-and-some-change posts.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

But you didn't make any arguments against his stealth. You just claimed it can't be proven to be superior, when Batman blatantly has vastly superior stealth feats.

None of Batman's incap approaches have been debated and his stealth hasn't been argued to any degree.

Your arguments are fundamentally flawed and have not proven, even remotely, that Batman can not defeat Wolf with ease. It has, at most, proven that Wolf could defeat Batman with great difficulty, and only if Batman approaches Wolf directly (which is out of character against armed or unknown opponents).

Considering this thread is open and 9 hours remain, I have every right to make my case for why this result would be incorrect.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I know. I addressed how I didn't above. I was quite clear on why I didn't. The votes occurred anyways. So this point is moot, since it's already in what you might call the court record and considered.

Yes they have.

No they aren't.

Okay. Go ahead. I'm not stopping you, I'm just telling you that it probably won't change anything.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

You can't even properly perform a stealth takedown on Sekiro because he has a tool that teleports him should he get hit in any way. This works even if the opponent is behind you.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also

Since we're talking about people stealthing Wolf

Would the red-sign pop up thing be considered canon? I don't remember any lore acknowleding it but that'd pretty much discredit anything like that

let's turn this bih into a discussion thread boys

 

[QrowBarr]

You mean perilous attacks? I don't know.

 

[AguilaR101]

It definitely shouldn't be unless it's aluded to exist as anything more than a game mechanic in lore.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

's why I'm asking

I never found anything on it, but a lot of the lore info isn't looked into yet

we're all waiting on Vaati to do the work for us since he's better kek

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I sincerely doubt it. It's almost certainly purely game mechanics. To my memory, only things acknowledged canonically can be considered for abilities.

If you did consider game mechanics, you would also have to consider Spirit Emblems, which would heavily limit Wolf.

"You can't even properly perform a stealth takedown on Sekiro because he has a tool that teleports him should he get hit in any way. This works even if the opponent is behind you. "

Sleep grenades. Continual freeze ray. Unless there are attacks Wolf can dodge that pertain to weapons like these, I wouldn't assume he can teleport against them. Especially when he has to specifically be attacked to teleport.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fextra being as insufficient as always smh

then yeah I suppose we'll wait for Vaati to notice a kanji on a wall on the way down to the Abyss saying they're canon and also that the final boss is just mist noble in a mask

oh well

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Mist Noble is just Patches smh.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The final FromSoft jebait is just a small clip, like a second, of Patches' voice dialogue coming at the ending of the game, and like Mist Noble's barely visible head in the last cutscenes where Wolf stabs the **** out of himself

just utterly gnome us

 

[QrowBarr]

Mist noble was the one who stabbed Wolf in Hirata tbf.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Mist Noble is secretly every enemy in the game wearing a mask

 

[Jasonsith]

I actually believe Batman is smart enough to incapacitate Sekiro if he knows he cannot kill / does not want to kill him for real. Ask the many criminals Bruce incapacitated before.

And... if McQueen takes this for 5 more hours let it be - I am casting my vote for Bruce for my reasons and FRA.

 

[Ogbunabali]

This was an interesting thread. But I'll have to give it to the Bats FRA.

 

[Schnee_One]

What's the vote count?

 

[Jasonsith]

Batma: 8 (CryoTheMayo, Psycho, EmperorDoom, Lancelot, CrimsonStarFallen, Sir Ovens, Jasonsith, Ogbunabali)

Wolf: 6-7 (Mr. Bambu, Steve Pogi Paitao, Elizhaa, Milly Rocking Bandit, Zarathustra(?), Jimboydejuan12, CCmac)

Thunder McQuee: 0 (?)