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Massive Source Downgrades (Maou Gakuin)

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yippee i love self harming

Concept Manipulation (Type 2)

Sources in Maou Gakuin are conceptual in nature, existing deeper than the body, mind, and soul, and acting as the fundamental concept of existence all beings possess. It's definitely a concept, but the reason it's treated as type 2 is based on two scans used to claim that the source exists in the past, present, and future, therefore defining a concept across an entire timeline (in other words, "all of reality" according to our CM page).

There's one glaringly obvious problem here, which is that both scans only refer to a person's future lives; Nothing about their past is mentioned at all, so we can't say sources determine anything about a person's past. That already would debunk type 2 CM, but the future lives bit is odd as well; As a person is reliant on their source to reincarnate, it is likely that someone losing their future lives after source destruction would just be a byproduct of losing the thing that grants them those reincarnations to begin with.

TL;DR: Sources don't govern the past of their owners, and thus do not control a concept over all of reality, disqualifying it from type 2.

EDIT: To address this scan, it is not saying that the source getting erased will erase the past and future of the owner. Just that the source itself will be erased across time.

Information Manipulation (Type 2)

The scans for sources qualifying as type 2 information strike me as odd, to say the least. For starters, the first one just reiterates what already makes sources conceptual; They they're the fundamental concept of existence, which doesn't do anything for type 2 info. The second scan is about sources making someone who they are and magic being born from sources; Again, nothing about information, just more conceptual stuff. The third one is interesting though, as it states that the source "remembers" the outline of the body, which is why it can regenerate the physical body after death. Fair enough, but that's just type 1 information; Nothing is really "fundamental" here, as something akin to a blueprint or memory would fall under knowledge (which is what type 1 info is).

TL;DR: All of the evidence for type 2 info is just more evidence of conceptual manipulation, and maybe type 1 info.

High-Godly Regeneration/NEP/Everything Else

Now, if all of this were to go through, what would the consequences be? To start, the reason most characters possess high-godly regeneration (or negation of it) is because they can recover from source destruction (or kill those who can do so). However, the entry for HGR clearly states that type 3 concepts cannot qualify for HGR if regenerated, so that would disqualify source regeneration by extension. If there are any feats of HGR not reliant on sources, then those can stay, but characters like Anos or the gods would go back down to mid-godly.

As an aside, Anos and Graham would lose their aspect type 4 NEP, as that's reliant on fundamental information. Characters who have type 2 information/concept hax from messing with sources would lose these abilities as well.

Staff Votes:

Agree: @Theglassman12, @Planck69, @Maverick_Zero_X (leaning agree), @Qawsedf234, @DarkGrath

Disagree: @Dereck03, @DarkDragonMedeus

Neutral:
 
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Disagree with the thread. I will address the points later if dereck or Tastumi doesn't beat me first
 
For the first point your missing one key information. This.
That doesn't say the source governs the past, present, and future. That just means someone's source can be destroyed in the past, present, and future just like anything else, it has nothing to do with what the source controls.

Destroying a concept in the past doesn't mean that concept controls the past. Do you understand that?
 
@BestMGQScalerEver That wouldn't really mean type 2 concept. The source still governs the individual person, not all of reality, plus some of the newer text makes it implied the past present and future is referring to the reincarnations of the person with said source, not exactly the source governing all realities.
 
Huh, don't twist the facts, the almighty sword has the ability to erase the source of whoever unsheathes it, and it is clearly stated that if the source is erased, then the past, present and future will be gone as well alluding to what would happen if the source is destroyed.
 
Huh, don't twist the facts, the almighty sword has the ability to erase the source of whoever unsheathes it, and it is clearly stated that if the source is erased, then the past, present and future will be erased alluding to what would happen if the source is destroyed.
That's... not what it says though. It says "...will annihiliate the source of the person who pulls it out, past, present, and future". That means it's the source getting erased across time, not that the source gets erased and then the past/present/future of the person gets erased after.
 
Information Manipulation (Type 2)

The scans for sources qualifying as type 2 information strike me as odd, to say the least. For starters, the first one just reiterates what already makes sources conceptual; They they're the fundamental concept of existence, which doesn't do anything for type 2 info. The second scan is about sources making someone who they are and magic being born from sources; Again, nothing about information, just more conceptual stuff. The third one is interesting though, as it states that the source "remembers" the outline of the body, which is why it can regenerate the physical body after death. Fair enough, but that's just type 1 information; Nothing is really "fundamental" here, as something akin to a blueprint or memory would fall under knowledge (which is what type 1 info is).

TL;DR: All of the evidence for type 2 info is just more evidence of conceptual manipulation, and maybe type 1 info.
Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.
Description in the profile.
The source remembers the body's outline, and memories are stored in the source. In other words, the source also stores information necessary for one's existence
For your knowledge memories itself is information based on context given. Here this memories is refering to abstract existence and from that abstract existence character can think and reconstruct their body with the information. Here it's fundamental because it's the character fundamental aspects.

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it.

I won't be bothering about CM type 2 Downgrade. I will try to find the thread where null made it accepted. Not want to go on circles with same topic.

Anyway Disagree with both abilities Downgrade.
 
That's... not what it says though. It says "...will annihiliate the source of the person who pulls it out, past, present, and future". That means it's the source getting erased across time, not that the source gets erased and then the past/present/future of the person gets erased after.
It is just wait for a bit i will send the scans so that you can get that shit.
 
No, what you say goes against the sword abilty per se, it only has the ability to erase the source, even Anos has to use Probability manipulation to create a possibility that he has not been erased to be able to use the sword and it clearly states

the source of the person who pulls it out ,<---(comma) past, present, future. The destruction of the source means the destruction of the source in the past, present and future and therefore the destruction of the person.
 
@Dereck03 it literally says the sword is the one destroying it though, not that the source gets nuked across all time, plus it's still a concept specific to an individual, not something that governs reality so I don't really see how this remotely proves type 2 concept.

Anyways put me on agree with the downgrade, I never really saw how the source is treated as a type 2 concept when it doesn't check off the standards for type 2.
 

Description in the profile.

For your knowledge memories itself is information based on context given. Here this memories is refering to abstract existence and from that abstract existence character can think and reconstruct their body with the information. Here it's fundamental because it's the character fundamental aspects.



I won't be bothering about CM type 2 Downgrade. I will try to find the thread where null made it accepted. Not want to go on circles with same topic.

Anyway Disagree with both abilities Downgrade.
Bro what

I know it's information. But it is specifically memories or the blueprint of someone's body; That falls under knowledge, which is type 1. It being fundamental is because it is a concept, it has nothing to do with the memories contained inside (or else everyone with memory manipulation would have info hax).

I have no ******* clue what AE has to do with any of this, since you can get AE without being something fundamental.

No, what you say goes against the sword abilty per se, it only has the ability to erase the source, even Anos has to use Probability manipulation to create a possibility that he has not been erased to be able to use the sword and it clearly states

the source of the person who pulls it out ,<---(comma) past, present, future. The destruction of the source means the destruction of the source in the past, present and future and therefore the destruction of the person.
Yeah, it erases the source. The source is what's getting erased across past, present, and future. How do you not understand that?

The comma being there means nothing? It'd be grammatically incorrect to say "the source of the person who pulls it out past, present, and future", regardless of the meaning.
 
That's... not what it says though. It says "...will annihiliate the source of the person who pulls it out, past, present, and future". That means it's the source getting erased across time, not that the source gets erased and then the past/present/future of the person gets erased after.
The "will" talks about the fact that whoever holds the almighty sword will disappear, and it's not exactly talking about the fact that the source will be erased in the past, present and future.
 
The "will" talks about the fact that whoever holds the almighty sword will disappear, and it's not exactly talking about the fact that the source will be erased in the past, present and future.
"...the power of the divine sword will annihiliate the source of the person who pulls it out, past, present, and future"

hm yes disagree fra
 
Yeah, it erases the source. The source is what's getting erased across past, present, and future. How do you not understand that?
There is only one source, even if the person exists in the past, present or future if the source is destroyed, the person will be erased from all existence at conceptual level, which proves that it governs the past present and future, there is no such thing as, destroy the source in the past then the present and future will continue to exist..... thank you for saying so.
 
There is only one source, even if the person exists in the past, present or future if the source is destroyed, the person will be erased from all existence at conceptual, which proves that it governs the past present and future, there is no such thing as, destroy the source in the past then the present and future will continue to exist..... thank you for saying so.
What does ANY of this have to do with what I just said...

The source isn't getting erased in only one point in time. It is being erased in ALL points in time. That is what the text states. Do you understand this?

That's what I'm talking about, my god in heaven.

Whoever draws the sword will have the source erased in the past, present and future.
Oh okay, so you agree that that scan is unusable then?
 
There is only one source, even if the person exists in the past, present or future if the source is destroyed, the person will be erased from all existence at conceptual level, which proves that it governs the past present and future, there is no such thing as, destroy the source in the past then the present and future will continue to exist..... thank you for saying so.
Yes, including and that's why Anos had to go back in time to get the source (each with half of one) from Misha and Sasha and put her body in the present, and even so, they continued to exist in the past, but, with sources different ao instead of two halves of one.
 
The source isn't getting erased in only one point in time. It is being erased in ALL points in time. That is what the text states. Do you understand this?
The sword only erases the source, it does not have the ability to erase the past or the future..... If the source is destroyed then goodbye to the past and future of a person.
 
The sword only erases the source, it does not have the ability to erase the past or the future..... If the source is destroyed then goodbye to the past and future.
No and that's what he's saying (the source will be erased in the present, past and future)? Even I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to this line.
 
Bro what

I know it's information. But it is specifically memories or the blueprint of someone's body; That falls under knowledge, which is type 1. It being fundamental is because it is a concept, it has nothing to do with the memories contained inside (or else everyone with memory manipulation would have info hax).

I have no ******* clue what AE has to do with any of this, since you can get AE without being something fundamental.
What ? Dude have you even took a clear look at what information type 1 does?


  1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.
  2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.


Source is reconstructing the body with the information stored inside of it. It's not manipulating Memories.

Also abstract existence made by information does gives concepts as fundamental level of information type 2.

It's clear cut statement for source reconstructing the body with the information stored Inside of it not Manipulating knowledge and memories. Completely disagree with the thread.
 
The sword only erases the source, it does not have the ability to erase the past or the future..... If the source is destroyed then goodbye to the past and future of a person.
And what is the source of this sword not being able to erase the past or future? It is clearly stated to be able to do so.

What ? Dude have you even took a clear look at what information type 1 does?


  1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.
  2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.


Source is reconstructing the body with the information stored inside of it. It's not manipulating Memories.

Also abstract existence made by information does gives concepts as fundamental level of information type 2.

It's clear cut statement for source reconstructing the body with the information stored Inside of it not Manipulating knowledge and memories. Completely disagree with the thread.
“There is an inseparable connection between the root and the body. Even if the body disappears, it can be restored by using <Resuscitation Ingal> because the root remembers the outline of the body.”

It is clearly stated to be memories. The source "remembers" what the body is like, and uses that as a blueprint for how to reconstruct it. This would be like saying a recipe in a cookbook is fundamental information, when it's really just a set of instructions to be followed.
 
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There's one glaringly obvious problem here, which is that both scans only refer to a person's future lives; Nothing about their past is mentioned at all, so we can't say sources determine anything about a person's past.
This assertion is impossible to prove die to the concept of time determining the past as the past. The past itself cannot be changed and any change made that conflicts with history is reverted.
In the first place, why would it disprove type 2 CM? The past at a point was the present and a person is still governed by the source in the present.
As a person is reliant on their source to reincarnate, it is likely that someone losing their future lives after source destruction would just be a byproduct of losing the thing that grants them those reincarnations to begin with.
Nice try. When the source is destroyed/ wounded, the person actually experiences the death of all their future existences in that single moment. If it were merely a byproduct, why would the pain from experience the death of those future incarnations be transferred to them?
"Source Explosion" <Gavuel>, a spell that releases an infinite amount of magic power from an individual's source as an explosion. Where do they get an infinite amount of magic that is beyond their own capabilities from? Easy, because the spell takes the power from their current life as well as that of their future lives spanning across an infinite amount of incarnations and releases it all at once.
Disagree so Lmao
 
I don't think I understand, are you trying to argue that the source will not be erased in the past, present and future?
 
@Tatsumi504 The source existing in the past doesn't make it a type 2 concept though, it's still governing a specific individual as stated in the lore for the series.
 
I don't think I understand, are you trying to argue that the source will not be erased in the past, present and future?
No, it will be. MG supporters are saying that scan implies the source governs the body in the past, present, and future, when it doesn't say anything like that at all. The scan just... doesn't mean anything for the purposes of this thread.

This assertion is impossible to prove die to the concept of time determining the past as the past. The past itself cannot be changed and any change made that conflicts with history is reverted.
In the first place, why would it disprove type 2 CM? The past at a point was the present and a person is still governed by the source in the present.
Because the claims that the source governs "all of reality" (and is therefore a type 2 concept) is that it defines a person in the past, present, and future. That is not the case, so it can't qualify.

Nice try. When the source is destroyed/ wounded, the person actually experiences the death of all their future existences in that single moment. If it were merely a byproduct, why would the pain from experience the death of those future incarnations be transferred to them?
"Source Explosion" <Gavuel>, a spell that releases an infinite amount of magic power from an individual's source as an explosion. Where do they get an infinite amount of magic that is beyond their own capabilities from? Easy, because the spell takes the power from their current life as well as that of their future lives spanning across an infinite amount of incarnations and releases it all at once.
Disagree so Lmao
This doesn't disprove what I said... It's just more of the some about a person's future incarnations, which is just about them being reincarnated. I would like some scans for the first thing you claimed, though.
 
Anyways I do need to be going to bed soon, so please don't make this thread a clusterfuck in the 6 hours that I'm asleep.

@Tatsumi504 The source existing in the past doesn't make it a type 2 concept though, it's still governing a specific individual as stated in the lore for the series.
Hey Glass, could you call some more staff here? I feel like we're already starting to go in circles.
 
And what is the source of this sword not being able to erase the past or future? It is clearly stated to be able to do so.


“There is an inseparable connection between the root and the body. Even if the body disappears, it can be restored by using <Resuscitation Ingal> because the root remembers the outline of the body.”

It is clearly stated to be memories. The source "remembers" what the body is like, and uses that as a blueprint for how to reconstruct it. This would be like saying the instructions in a cookbook are fundamental information, when it's really just a set of instructions to be followed.
  1. We don't treat physical body as information type 2. If that was the case all people would have HGR.
  2. Still what you said doesn't even come close to type 1 information manipulation which only manipulates knowledge.
Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.
Also there is no set levels of information you should manipulate to get information type 2. Already said Memories are information depending on the context. Characters are shown to exists think and act with sources alone which shows fundamental aspects of information existing in the source. Existence itself is preserved in the Source.

Also your example. Instructions on cook book doesn't construct the spirit and soul of whatever you construct with it here Source construct your whole existence.

Mind (Physical Body ) < Soul < Spirit. Still Disagree with the thread. Anyway Elizha agreed with the upgrade as knowledgeable staff. We will discuss when he/she makes a comment on if this Qualifies or not.
 
That already would debunk type 2 CM, but the future lives bit is odd as well; As a person is reliant on their source to reincarnate, it is likely that someone losing their future lives after source destruction would just be a byproduct of losing the thing that grants them those reincarnations to begin with.
The source isn't getting erased in only one point in time. It is being erased in ALL points in time. That is what the text states. Do you understand this?
Yeah i think the problem is in here, the root is only one there are no many same root, so there are no same root in past in present in future

Yeah this scan is prove that it only 1 root, the infinite number of future reincarnation are occurring all at once if the root is wounded, and yeah your argument that is just byproduct is irelevant because it literally say occurring the infinite future
“Now do you understand? Having your source wounded is an agony
worse than death. Condensing every imaginable pain in this world into one
would still be incomparable. After all, the deaths of your infinite number of
future incarnations are occurring all at once.”
-LN Volume 3 Chapter 27
 
Yes, including and that's why Anos had to go back in time to get the source (each with half of one) from Misha and Sasha and put her body in the present, and even so, they continued to exist in the past, but, with sources different ao instead of two halves of one.
It is because their root is two or different by default, they have two different root

I mean root of militia and aberneyu, there are no mixxed the root in the past beside their case

And with the fact that they have different root, so that case cannot be a anti-feats
 
The main argument is based on the fact that erase the source does not imply erasing it in the past as well..... Which is highly incorrect

Taking into account the almighty sword, it proves that destroying the source will erase the past, present and future.

There is only 1 source for the infinite incarnations of a single being, and if it is destroyed obviously its past and future will be destroyed because the fundamental concept of existence entered directly into the cycle of death. If the source is destroyed then the person will simply disappear from existence. There will be no way to not affect the past due to the existence of only 1 source per being.
 
Because the claims that the source governs "all of reality" (and is therefore a type 2 concept) is that it defines a person in the past, present, and future. That is not the case, so it can't qualify.
Stop your dishonesty. No claim was made that it governs all of reality. It governs past, present, future of an individual.
This doesn't disprove what I said... It's just more of the some about a person's future incarnations, which is just about them being reincarnated. I would like some scans for the first thing you claimed, though.
It actually does as it confirms those incarnations are actually dying not that the possibility of Reincarnation is destroyed as a by product.
“Now do you understand? Having your source wounded is an agony
worse than death. Condensing every imaginable pain in this world into one
would still be incomparable. After all, the deaths of your infinite number of
future incarnations are occurring all at once.”

-LN Volume 3 Chapter 27​
Gavuel was a forbidden spell that forcefully released all the magic of
one’s source to spark an explosion of light magic. That is, it was a suicidal
source explosion that expended not only one’s life, but all their future lives
by releasing the magic that would have spanned those generations.

-LN Volume 3 Chapter 25​
 
However, the entry for HGR clearly states that type 3 concepts cannot qualify for HGR if regenerated, so that would disqualify source regeneration by extension. If there are any feats of HGR not reliant on sources, then those can stay, but characters like Anos or the gods would go back down to mid-godly.
I'm neutral on all, however i want to address this, regen from destruction of CM3 still qualify for High-Godly if the verse itself can prove that regen from CM3 is harder than regen from body & soul & mind destruction. And iirc, MGK pretty much confirmed that regen from the source destruction is far harder than if you regen from a intact source
 
Gotta disagree here, the source governs a person being across all of Spacetime and it fits the bill of Type 2;
"Destroying concept of humanity and thus humanity cease to exist will qualify"

Type 2 concepts govern all of reality not that just a single concept govern all of reality. Source qualifies easily.
 
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