Massive Source Downgrades (Maou Gakuin)

[Robo432343]

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This says it all.

ah **** ive been epicly owned

Anyways you can't claim fire dew is the source when a different scan says it's something else entirely. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Dog3352]

ah **** ive been epicly owned

Anyways you can't claim fire dew is the source when a different scan says it's something else entirely. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

One says that the dew of fire is equivalent to the fountain.
Another says that the dew of fire is a visualization of the laws that affect the source.
The statement speaks of the law affecting the source (which is not the dew of fire).
basically: They don't contradict each other.
And I have to sleep to go to school.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dog3352 Ok first off, try and get my position right before you try and name call me, I'm not even an admin. Second not a single argument you've made lines up with what's the standards on the wiki for concepts. Plus your argument with the fire dew being the same as personal source concepts contradict each other completely as one's for the earth and the other is for the person, so you're not really convincing me that they're one and the same.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What Glass said ^

Anyways I do think we're just going in circles now and we're currently split when it comes to staff votes. All we can do now is wait, I guess.

 

[Dog3352]

Plus your argument with the fire dew being the same as personal source concepts contradict each other completely as one's for the earth and the other is for the person, so you're not really convincing me that they're one and the same.

How does this contradict itself? You must know the difference between the dew of fire and the law of the world.

 

[Tatsumi504]

are you ******* kidding me bro
If it doesn't govern a concept across all of reality, it can't qualify. The source needs to govern a person's concept across all of time and space, which it has not been shown to do.

Are you ******* kidding me too? How about you bold this part as well?

"2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence."

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Are you ******* kidding me too? How about you bold this part as well?

"2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence."

Unfortunately doesn't matter when sources only govern an individual's existence, which makes it a personal concept and this type 3.

 

[Tatsumi504]

This has no relation to anything I just said. Their "future lives" are dying in the sense that they can't reincarnate. Drawing magic power from the future is cool and all, but it doesn't debunk what I said.

It most certainly does. Future lives dying in the sense they can't reincarnate≠ experiencing the death of those future lives.
They are not drawing magic power from the future. The source encompasses their future which is why that magic power is released during that self destruction. You are not doing yourself any favors here until you can refute this.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Unfortunately doesn't matter when sources only govern an individual's existence, which makes it a personal concept and this type 3.

Personal concepts are only type 3 if they don't qualify for either type 1 or 2

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dog3352 because they're not the same thing like you claim it is. Nothing about the source for an individual person governs all of reality. it only covers the individual person, making it type 3 at best.

 

[Dog3352]

@Dog3352 because they're not the same thing like you claim it is. Nothing about the source for an individual person governs all of reality. it only covers the individual person, making it type 3 at best.

The fire dew is an order of the silver sea, it is only needed in the World for two things, deepening the World, and preventing it from being destroyed, the feri dew also maintains the World, and is what determines "magic power" and "order weight" of the World, it has no influence on the source, just that both are equivalent.
The laws that "affect the source", are orders from the Militia World, such as destruction, creation, causality, etc. The fire dew is just a "visualization" of the laws, because of its properties and importance in the World.
Basically: Nothing contradicts each other, laws of the World and fire dew are different things, the laws of the World are what affect the source, not the fire dew.
Why would they need to be the same thing? The fire dew is already accepted as CM type 1, as well as the laws of the world.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Personal concepts are only type 3 if they don't qualify for either type 1 or 2

No???? I have literally never heard this is any CM discussion, what are you talking about??

It's true that concepts that don't qualify as type 1 or 2 are type 3 by default, but that doesn't mean that's the only way to get type 3. Regardless of their other qualifications, personal concepts are ALWAYS type 3.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

By the way I think we might both be wrong about the "all reality" stuff; It's probably supposed to mean type 2 is a type 3 concept applied to everything under the same umbrella of a single, unified concept.

For example, the concept of a single apple would be type 3, while the concept of all apples in reality would be type 2. Since there's only one source per person, no source is governing it's field of influence (existence) across all reality, it's only limited to a single person.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Neutral, leaning towards agreeing with the OP.

Source governs ones Existence on complete reality just scratching it would affect his Infinite incarnation at once. This doesn't comes Under type 3 concepts bro. Here clear cut stated that. You can take a look at the scan.

I scratched the white orb with my nails.

“G-Gaaaaaah! Guwaaaaaaaaaaahhh!”

His screams were louder than the cries of a dying man.

“Now do you understand? Having your source wounded is an agony worse than death. Condensing every imaginable pain in this world into one would still be incomparable. After all, the deaths of your infinite number of future incarnations are occurring all at once.”

With my fingertip, I applied a light wound to his source.

“Agh, graaaaaagh... Gaaaaaaaaaaaah!”

Tears and saliva dripped down Diego’s face, but he paid them no mind as he screamed like a beast.

 

[Tatsumi504]

No???? I have literally never heard this is any CM discussion, what are you talking about??

It's true that concepts that don't qualify as type 1 or 2 are type 3 by default, but that doesn't mean that's the only way to get type 3. Regardless of their other qualifications, personal concepts are ALWAYS type 3.

Not always. The description says if they don't qualify for the first two, then it gives personal concepts as an example. It doesn't mean personal concepts are only ever type 3.

 

[Tatsumi504]

No???? I have literally never heard this is any CM discussion, what are you talking about??

It's true that concepts that don't qualify as type 1 or 2 are type 3 by default, but that doesn't mean that's the only way to get type 3. Regardless of their other qualifications, personal concepts are ALWAYS type 3.

Probably. Revise the CM page then

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@Dog3352 because they're not the same thing like you claim it is. Nothing about the source for an individual person governs all of reality. it only covers the individual person, making it type 3 at best.

Wow show me how type 3 concepts affects infinite incarnations at same time without destroying the source? Here scan literally states just giving a small scratch alone affects the infinite incarnations. You still wants to say it's type 3? Great.

I scratched the white orb with my nails.

“G-Gaaaaaah! Guwaaaaaaaaaaahhh!”

His screams were louder than the cries of a dying man.

“Now do you understand? Having your source wounded is an agony worse than death. Condensing every imaginable pain in this world into one would still be incomparable. After all, the deaths of your infinite number of future incarnations are occurring all at once.”

With my fingertip, I applied a light wound to his source.

“Agh, graaaaaagh... Gaaaaaaaaaaaah!”

Tears and saliva dripped down Diego’s face, but he paid them no mind as he screamed like a beast.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not always. The description says if they don't qualify for the first two, then it gives personal concepts as an example. It doesn't mean personal concepts are only ever type 3.

No, it clearly says "Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale", which means personal concepts are type 3 by default since they are an example of something that doesn't meet the standards of the other types.

Not to mention, you'd have to actually prove type 2, which uh

By the way I think we might both be wrong about the "all reality" stuff; It's probably supposed to mean type 2 is a type 3 concept applied to everything under the same umbrella of a single, unified concept.

For example, the concept of a single apple would be type 3, while the concept of all apples in reality would be type 2. Since there's only one source per person, no source is governing it's field of influence (existence) across all reality, it's only limited to a single person.

What say you to this?

Source governs ones Existence on complete reality just scratching it would affect his Infinite incarnation at once. This doesn't comes Under type 3 concepts bro. Here clear cut stated that. You can take a look at the scan.

literally what does any of this have to do with type 2. sources could be type 3 and still have these properties.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

literally what does any of this have to do with type 2. sources could be type 3 and still have these properties.

You making any sense ? Why would be Source type 3 when affecting it would affect complete incarnations of that character in infinite futures? What you saying doesn't even make sense. It Clear cut shows source governs ones Existence in complete reality if Source gets affected his Complete reality from present to all of his future incarnations would be affected too. Source is governing that shit. His existence on complete reality.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You making any sense ? Why would be Source type 3 when affecting it would affect complete incarnations of that character in infinite futures? What you saying doesn't even make sense. It Clear cut shows source governs ones Existence in complete reality if Source gets affected his Complete reality from present to all of his future incarnations would be affected too. Source is governing that shit. His existence on complete reality.

Dude I'm gonna be completely honest, your grammar and sentence structure is borderline unreadable.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

No, it clearly says "Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale", which means personal concepts are type 3 by default since they are an example of something that doesn't meet the standards of the other types.

Great so you literally debunked your own thread. Affecting the source affects infinite incarnations of the character too which clear cut shows this doens't comes under type 3. Source is not governing personal Concepts on specific scale. It's governing infinite future reincarnation of the characters too. It's clearly cut goes beyond range of what type 3 does.

“Now do you understand? Having your source wounded is an agony worse than death. Condensing every imaginable pain in this world into one would still be incomparable. After all, the deaths of your infinite number of future incarnations are occurring all at once.”

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Great so you literally debunked your own thread. Affecting the source affects infinite incarnations of the character too which clear cut shows this doens't comes under type 3. Source is not governing personal Concepts on specific scale. It's governing infinite future reincarnation of the characters too. It's clearly cut goes beyond range of what type 3 does.

Now where did I say type 3 can't govern the future?

Anyways, as I explained here, unless a source controls the concept of existence across all of reality (for everything, not just an individual), it can't qualify for type 2. That's just something you need to deal with.

By the way I think we might both be wrong about the "all reality" stuff; It's probably supposed to mean type 2 is a type 3 concept applied to everything under the same umbrella of a single, unified concept.

For example, the concept of a single apple would be type 3, while the concept of all apples in reality would be type 2. Since there's only one source per person, no source is governing it's field of influence (existence) across all reality, it's only limited to a single person.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Now where did I say type 3 can't govern the future?

Anyways, as I explained here, unless a source controls the concept of existence across all of reality (for everything, not just an individual), it can't qualify for type 2. That's just something you need to deal with.

Type 3 can't govern the future because it's a concept on small scale. Futures are considered as separate realities in the wiki for many verses. You don't need to prove past also getting affected the fact all of his incarnations in future is enough. It states wounded not destroyed you still not countered why wounding something would affect infinite futures incarnations when it's type 3 concepts. I don't see type 3 concepts having potency to affect the future. That's your Burden to prove.

 

[Dog3352]

By the way I think we might both be wrong about the "all reality" stuff; It's probably supposed to mean type 2 is a type 3 concept applied to everything under the same umbrella of a single, unified concept.

For example, the concept of a single apple would be type 3, while the concept of all apples in reality would be type 2. Since there's only one source per person, no source is governing it's field of influence (existence) across all reality, it's only limited to a single person.

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2

No, whenever a personal concept is instantly type 3, if it follows the patterns of type 1 or 2, it will not be type 3, even though it is a "personal concept".

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality.

The type 2 concept is not about "greater area" or "governing exactly the same thing throughout universal reality", it is about it governing "objects", changing type 2 CM would result in changing all objects related to it , in this case, the objects are what it governs, they don't need to be literally "the exact same thing/object", in the same way changing a universal concept would result in the concept changing.
Even if for example, the concept of "circle" only governs planet earth, changing that concept on the planet will change all the objects that that concept governs, like balls, the planet, and anything else that circles, that would still be CM type 2 even not changing the whole reality, the area of influence of the concept is only smaller, and not that it ceases to be a type 2 CM, in the same way that the body, mind and soul "are part" of the source, they are the "objects" that are changed when making a change to the concept (source).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Type 3 can't govern the future because it's a concept on small scale.

It's small scale because it only affects one thing, while type 2 and 1 concepts affect everything under the same umbrella (concept of one apple vs concept of all apples, you get the idea).

I'll admit some of the confusion here is my fault, though, so please refer to my latest argument for the "all of reality" stuff.

Futures are considered as separate realities in the wiki for many verses. You don't need to prove past also getting affected the fact all of his incarnations in future is enough. It states wounded not destroyed you still not countered why wounding something would affect infinite futures incarnations when it's type 3 concepts. I don't see type 3 concepts having potency to affect the future. That's your Burden to prove.

Since when? The future is just a part of the same timeline of a single reality, so whatever the hell you're saying is extremely wrong. There's nothing preventing type 3 concepts from determining the future, you're just saying there is with no basis.

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2

No, whenever a personal concept is instantly type 3, if it follows the patterns of type 1 or 2, it will not be type 3, even though it is a "personal concept".

You are completely ignoring what is written in the ability page, ironically doing what you accused Glass of doing. The exact quote is "Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon". Personal concepts are given as a clear example of what does not qualify; It is written into the description of the ability itself, so you would need to rewrite the page for personal concepts to count as type 2 or 1.

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality.

The type 2 concept is not about "greater area" or "governing exactly the same thing throughout universal reality", it is about it governing "objects", changing type 2 CM would result in changing all objects related to it , in this case, the objects are what it governs, they don't need to be literally "the exact same thing/object", in the same way changing a universal concept would result in the concept changing.
Even if for example, the concept of "circle" only governs planet earth, changing that concept on the planet will change all the objects that that concept governs, like balls, the planet, and anything else that circles, that would still be CM type 2 even not changing the whole reality, the area of influence of the concept is only smaller, and not that it ceases to be a type 2 CM, in the same way that the body, mind and soul "are part" of the source, they are the "objects" that are changed when making a change to the concept (source).

It is about greater scope; The description clearly refers to altering multiple objects at once, and is about governing all reality within their influence, when neither of these apply to type 3.

Sources are type 3 because they are a person's personal concept of existence; If their source is destroyed, they alone die, and nobody else is harmed because they have their own sources. Sources would only be type 2 if there was one source that governed everyone's existence, and destroying that source would kill everyone. That is the difference between type 3 and type 2.

 

[Tatsumi504]

What say you to this?

I say probably but in that case a site wide revision of the CM page is needed.
Take types 1 & 2 as an example. It mentions needing to govern reality but then in the very same sentence, it limits reality to what the object governs.
This is why we're having different opinions. You see the side that supports your argument (Governs reality) and i see the side that supprts mine (part of reality it participates in, reality in it's area of influence)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's small scale because it only affects one thing, while type 2 and 1 concepts affect everything under the same umbrella (concept of one apple vs concept of all apples, you get the idea).

I'll admit some of the confusion here is my fault, though, so please refer to my latest argument for the "all of reality" stuff.

All of reality is on the scale it governs it's not talking about timeline itself.

Since when? The future is just a part of the same timeline of a single reality, so whatever the hell you're saying is extremely wrong. There's nothing preventing type 3 concepts from determining the future, you're just saying there is with no basis.

It's your burden to show me a type 3 concept governing the future. Also futures which are disconnected are considered as Seperate realities aks glass or pain or DT. From present to the future is still considered as different plane of reality.

 

[Vietthai96]

Uh oh, even if affecting the concept of a single person across all of time, still single person which is type 3 though, but anyway to clarify, i'm speaking generally

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

All of reality is on the scale it governs it's not talking about timeline itself.

What does this have to do with what I just said?

It's your burden to show me a type 3 concept governing the future. Also futures which are disconnected are considered as Seperate realities aks glass or pain or DT. From present to the future is still considered as different plane of reality.

It's not. I'm just saying a concept controlling the future isn't type 2 by default.

I say probably but in that case a site wide revision of the CM page is needed.
Take types 1 & 2 as an example. It mentions needing to govern reality but then in the very same sentence, it limits reality to what the object governs.
This is why we're having different opinions. You see the side that supports your argument (Governs reality) and i see the side that supprts mine (part of reality it participates in, reality in it's area of influence)

Feel free to change it then, but until you do, sources will only be type 3 concepts.

Anyways I have to go to bed soon. Staff vote is currently 2-2 (Mav is neutral but said she was leaning towards agreement).

 

[Dog3352]

It is about greater scope; The description clearly refers to altering multiple objects at once, and is about governing all reality within their influence, when neither of these apply to type 3.

This does not mean that personal concepts will immediately be type 3.
No, if this were simply an area larger than the type 3 concept, it would be said in the explanation.

The explanation itself says "Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence.", and the other part says "and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself."
Which makes it very clear that this is not a larger area, but it governs something, which is why the objects being changed after the concept is changed is used as an example, because changing a type 2 concept will change the objects that the concept concept governs, not because it is a larger area.

 

[Tatsumi504]

If their source is destroyed, they alone die, and nobody else is harmed

Their future selves literally die. Order is predetermined fate. The order of the future exists meaning the future actively exists. Wounding the source in the past or present wounds the source in the future thus the pain of all those instances is felt at any point in time the source is wounded.
Show me a type 3 concept that can actually affect the life of a future person

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Their future selves literally die. Order is predetermined fate. The order of the future exists meaning the future actively exists. Wounding the source in the past or present wounds the source in the future thus the pain of all those instances is felt at any point in time the source is wounded.

Nobody but the individual and their future selves, I mean. It still isn't affecting anyone beyond that single person (their future selves are still the same person, just... in the future). My point still remains.

Show me a type 3 concept that can actually affect the life of a future person

Why should I? There's nothing stopping type 3 concepts from altering the future, you're just assuming there is based off of nothing.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's not. I'm just saying a concept controlling the future isn't type 2 by default.

It's unless you show me type 3 concepts affecting on that level.

Nowhere here states type 3 can affect the reality of the futures. I can search the thread for tier 2 revision where it was clearly agreed on Seperated future are separate realities. If you are still Persistence on not agreeing with future = a reality of its own.

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's unless you show me type 3 concepts affecting on that level.

Nowhere here states type 3 can affect the reality of the futures. I can search the thread for tier 2 revision where it was clearly agreed on Seperated future are separate realities. If you are still Persistence on not agreeing with future = a reality of its own.

Just because it doesn't explicitly list everything type 3 concepts can do doesn't mean it can't do those things. No power description is going to list every possible use of that power. The entire point of the descriptions for CM is to describe what the concepts ARE, not what they DO, so of course it wouldn't mention whether or not it'd affect the future. In fact, there's nothing saying type 2 or type 1 concepts can affect the future, so wouldn't your own logic make this point meaningless?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Just because it doesn't explicitly list everything type 3 concepts can do doesn't mean it can't do those things. No power description is going to list every possible use of that power. The entire point of the descriptions for CM is to describe what the concepts ARE, not what they DO, so of course it wouldn't mention whether or not it'd affect the future. In fact, there's nothing saying type 2 or type 1 concepts can affect the future, so wouldn't your own logic make this point meaningless?

Buddy Type 3 doesn't affect the target on reality level where type 2 does future is a seperate reality on wiki standards you just changed what i said. Future is a reality of its own. You understand what that means ? Affecting the future is still counted as affecting the reality. Why do you think Yhwach has Multi+ fate manipulation? He has never shown to affect past then why does he has Multi+ fate manipulation? Simple future is considered as Seperate realities even DT clarified that in tier 2 revision. Show me an example for type 3 concepts affecting future or just concede at this point.

 

[Fixxed]

The thing is, that is clearly governing a personal concept. It's just a collection of things that make you, you. The definition of type 3 is "personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale", and the concept of you is extremely personal.

First, every concept is personal by default, if it concept of stone it just govern yeah one "personal" that is stone

You forget about the part that it stated "merely on a more specific scale"
The personal concept is not a problem, the problem is if that concept just govern specific thing of that object or person, not govern entire his existence or all his aspect of the existence

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Buddy Type 3 doesn't affect the target on reality level where type 2 does future is a seperate reality on wiki standards you just changed what i said. Future is a reality of its own. You understand what that means ? Affecting the future is still counted as affecting the reality. Why do you think Yhwach has Multi+ fate manipulation? He has never shown to affect past then why does he has Multi+ fate manipulation? Simple future is considered as Seperate realities even DT clarified that in tier 2 revision. Show me an example for type 3 concepts affecting future or just concede at this point.

Can you please link me to the post where "the future is a separate reality" was ever accepted? I'm going to bed now, so take as long as you want, but I won't accept sussy sounding bullshit on the basis of "bro trust me".

 

[PainKiller07]

Disagree with removal of HGR as type 3 still qualifies if it's been shown to be the very abstract fundamental essence of existence.

Neutral on the rest, might start reading the arguments to decide.

 

[Dog3352]

First, every concept is personal by default, if it concept of stone it just govern yeah one "personal" that is stone

You forget about the part that it stated "merely on a more specific scale"
The personal concept is not a problem, the problem is if that concept just govern specific thing of that object or person, not govern entire his existence or all his aspect of the existence

YES, I've been repeating this for a LONG time, finally someone said it.