Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions

[DarkGrath]

Hmm...

Saying that "death would cease to exist" is a pretty big stretch. However, the concept of death is very heavily present for Nyx. I'll be looking further into Nyx to see what abilities they could have that the Avatar of Nyx does not.

 

[DarkGrath]

There are two notable abilities I can think of right now for True Nyx.

1: Created the Collective Unconscious - Conceptual Manipulation

2: The guidebook mentions that gods and demons emerge from humans to "protect their psyche" - Mind Manipulation?

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Nyx was brought about by Erebus, which fooled Nyx into believeing that humanity wished for death. In reality, Erebus was just a manifestation of malice that didn't truly represent humanity, at least not fully.

So no, Nyx doesn't manipulate concepts, and neither does Erebus. now we could make a case for Yaldabaoth doing so, or Izanami, but Nyx did not.

It's been a while since I played P5 or P4 so I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, however, Izanami was distorting the concept of truth, and Yaldy was altering the world's concepts to remove freedom. I'll have to rewatch that section of the games though, since my memory is hazy and I don't remember them as well as P3.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. When I mentioned Concept Manipulation, I was referring to how Nyx created the Collective Unconscious, a literal concept. Also, what do you mean by "Nyx was brought about by Erebus"? I'm aware that Nyx did not have any malicious intent by themselves, and that it was Erebus' will that caused the end-game events of Persona 3. But Nyx does still exist by themselves, and had a will of their own before hibernating. Erebus is the reason Nyx is malicious at the end of Persona 3, but everything Nyx is capable of is still due to it's own power.

Also, still confused about the Concept Manip thing. The fact that Erebus is a manifestation of malice that used Nyx's power is literally completely unrelated to the creation of the Collective Unconscious. I don't get how that disproves it in any way.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I don't recall Nyx creating the collective unconsciousness. If she did, then that would easily be a concept manipulation, I think, but not a very combat applicable one.

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, yeah. It's not exactly combat applicable, but it is still an ability that would be added to their profile that would differentiate it from the Nyx Avatar. And yes, I can confirm that Nyx created the Collective Unconscious. I might be able to find the original statements about it again, if you insist.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I really need to replay these games. I can't seem to remember anything about them.

 

[DarkGrath]

It's fine, I only know this crap because I recently created the page for True Nyx and I spent several hours before and during the creation burning everything about Nyx into my mind. I am the Nyx Omniscient. XD

 

[Solacis]

Meltlilith vs Joker whe

Ren already fight Gilgamesh iirc and it still ongoing

Ten Crowns GG is the current argument for Gilgamesh stomping Joker, tbh.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

To be fair Ten Crowns is a pretty powerful NP.

 

[DarkGrath]

im just gonna sit here and pretend i know what ten crowns is

 

[Solacis]

As for the stuff about True Nyx:

- No. Nyx shouldn't get any abilities from creating the CU because she didn't create it. She started the chain reaction that led to its birth, but she didn't do it herself. If anything, she would get Fear Manipulation via causing barely sentient beings to perceive enough fear to rapidly evolve their minds in self-defense.

- Nyx's background as the Star Eater should probably be noted. Nyx v.s. Sefar, when?

 

[DarkGrath]

Ahh, I see. My apologies, slight error in my memory there. Even so, being the indirect cause of the creation of a concept is likely indictive of an ability, even if it is not concept manip. I might look further into it.

 

[Solacis]

It's a feat on the end of Earth's primordial living creatures, not Nyx, in creating the Collective Unconscious. The only feat on Nyx's part is in inciting them into making it.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, just checked on the Megami Tensei wiki.

So, Nyx was a dormant being, moving through space, when they collided with the Earth and became it's moon. After the collision, it's "psyche" was left on the surface, which conflicted with the psyche of humans. The collective unconscious was evolved by the humans as a method of protecting their own psyches from that of Nyx.

This seems like it might be cause for Mind Manipulation, given how Nyx's psyche drastically affected the psyche of all the humans on Earth before the creation of the Collective Unconscious.

Anyway, I'm quite tired from having stayed up late last night to get the Nyx profile finished, so I'm just gonna grab myself a fat can of caffeine before continuing this discussion to ensure I actually make some level of sense.

 

[Solacis]

I agree with Mind Manipulation, though I think it also warrants Empathic/Fear Manipulation due to inciting their survival instinct.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, that seems reasonable. Though only Mind and Fear Manipulation will need to be added, since they already have Empathic Manipulation through scaling from the Nyx Avatar. Should this be discussed in a separate CRT, or would it be good-to-go if we just got a bit more input on it?

 

[Solacis]

It should be good right now since the profile is still sort of in the process of being made.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, gotcha. I'll add it on then, though I'd like it if we got some input from KnightOfSunlight and MattadorProne.

 

[DarkGrath]

Added. It'll be difficult to find many major abilities for Nyx, given how little of the franchise they actually appear, but I'll keep looking. I've already added on obvious stuff like Avatar Creation and Large Size.

 

[Solacis]

I'm too tired to really think it through, but should Sinful Shell have Regenerationn Negation/Power Nullification due to Yaldabaoth not healing himself despite being conscious after being shot?

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

What about this?

• The Persona 3 Club Book explains that Plumes of Dusk are fragments of Nyx's body that were shed when Nyx's body fused with the moon. They exist in a state between matter and information, having properties of both, and carry within them the same space-time manipulation ability as Shadows - they are essentially physical Shadows.

Since this implies that Nyz's body exists as both matter and information, that would be something like abstract existence, I think.

 

[MattadorProne]

Yeah, gotcha. I'll add it on then, though I'd like it if we got some input from KnightOfSunlight and MattadorProne.

Sounds good, I see no faults

Edit: I mean technically epathic manipulation would include fear manipulation. We could arguge the fear manipulation is at a greter manitude than the other grouped aspects of epathic manipulation (if that is what you're suggesting)

 

[DarkGrath]

What about this?

• The Persona 3 Club Book explains that Plumes of Dusk are fragments of Nyx's body that were shed when Nyx's body fused with the moon. They exist in a state between matter and information, having properties of both, and carry within them the same space-time manipulation ability as Shadows - they are essentially physical Shadows.

Since this implies that Nyz's body exists as both matter and information, that would be something like abstract existence, I think.

This seems reasonable to me, though I'd like Solacis' opinion on it as well.

By the way, what kind of abstract existence would that be? It sounds like Type 2.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm too tired to really think it through, but should Sinful Shell have Regenerationn Negation/Power Nullification due to Yaldabaoth not healing himself despite being conscious after being shot?

Yaldabaoth doesn't have regen, does he?

 

[MattadorProne]

I'm too tired to really think it through, but should Sinful Shell have Regenerationn Negation/Power Nullification due to Yaldabaoth not healing himself despite being conscious after being shot?

Possibly. Negation of Type 1 and 8 immortality does not cover that. I would reccomend further debate on this if you wish to persue. I would lean more towards power null but its iffy

 

[DarkGrath]

Again, is Yaldabaoth actually capable of healing himself in that way? I didn't see anything about Regenerationn on his profile.

 

[MattadorProne]

Thats true. I'll leave the decision on if to further this to OP when they're less tired. I don't really have enough info to lead this discussion in any direction.

 

[MattadorProne]

What about this?

• The Persona 3 Club Book explains that Plumes of Dusk are fragments of Nyx's body that were shed when Nyx's body fused with the moon. They exist in a state between matter and information, having properties of both, and carry within them the same space-time manipulation ability as Shadows - they are essentially physical Shadows.

Since this implies that Nyz's body exists as both matter and information, that would be something like abstract existence, I think.

This seems reasonable to me, though I'd like Solacis' opinion on it as well.
By the way, what kind of abstract existence would that be? It sounds like Type 2.

Type 2 sounds reasonable

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, let's wait until he is available and ready for discussion.

 

[Solacis]

Nyx is the mother of all Shadows. Of course she gets the same abilities that they do. Unlike Shadows though, hers is Type 2.

As for Yaldy's regen, that's actually something we forgot to add to Yaldy's profile in the last massive CRT. We agreed on "Effectively Low-Godly Regen via Healing" since Yaldy can heal himself endlessly as long as he doesn't die, and for him to die, his Type 8 Immortality has to be bypassed. Although, reading through that thread I remembered that Sinful Shell doesn't include regen negation in the first place, so that particular point is moot.

 

[DarkGrath]

Ahh, I see. So, I take it you agree with the Abstract Existence?

Also, should we add the Low-Godly regen to Yaldabaoth's profile, since it was already discussed and agreed upon?

 

[Solacis]

Honestly I'm a bit against it now that I've thought about it more. The way I see it, the way his Type 8 works is like Erebus, who even when physically destroyed will eventually reform so long as mankind's desire to die remains strong. While we can argue that his healing can bring someone back from a disembodied consciousness, which is effectively Low-Godly, there's no evidence to support that he can bring himself back while he, himself, is disembodied.

I won't mind either way, but I also won't make the decision myself.

 

[DarkGrath]

Hmm... I've looked at the evidence, and I honestly don't know for sure. Given that he is reliant on Type 8 Immortality, the fact that he can willingly kill off all humans for his own entertainment with no ill effects is probably indicitive of some other major abilities. I honestly have no idea if that counts for Low-Godly though.

But is the Abstract Existence for Nyx good-to-go?

 

[Solacis]

Yep

 

[DarkGrath]

Added. I was a bit doubtful about Nyx's efficacy as a Low 2-C character when I first made that profile, but all things considered, they are actually pretty decent.

 

[DarkGrath]

Are there any major resistances Nyx should have? They haven't demonstrated anything by themselves, at least I'm pretty sure they haven't, but potentially through scaling to things like shadows they might get resistance to Soul Manip?

 

[Solacis]

Every resistance attributed to Shadows except for elemental ones should also apply to Nyx herself. So that already includes stuff like resistance to Paralysis Inducement, Poison, Sound, Memory, Biological, Mind, Empathic, Rage, Fear, Soul and Death Manipulation.

 

[DarkGrath]

Thank you for the clarification. It's always handy to have someone as knowledgable as you on CRT's. All added now.

 

[Solacis]

You know, I just thought of it, but should we make a DLC key for the Persona characters? In fact, if no one is opposed, I'd even say just combine it with their regular keys. The descriptions of the original Personas go "A Persona of another story", and with PQ2, we know that the Velvet Room residents can perceive and travel between alternate universes. Even the descriptions of the Picaro Personas support this, with their backgrounds saying "A Persona turned Picaro after becoming the Trickster's mask" - proving that Joker can actually possess another protagonist's initial Persona even if it changes its form a bit.

This would help buff not only Joker, but also Makoto and Elizabeth, since both would now have access to Door of Hades, which is an Almighty-based instant-death spell. Marie would get Shining Arrows, Adachi would get Magatsu-Mandala, Minazuki would get Abyssal Wings, etc.