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As a side note, I would argue that scaling to velvet room attendents is a flawed argument since they are inherintly testing you/going easy on you. They will once shot you if you violate the rules of the match.
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Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #122
For those who want to help implement the changes, I'm working on a pseudo-template that can be used over in this blog post.
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As silly as this might sound, I would honestly consider one-shotting from the Velvet Room Attendants to be GC to keep the fight hard.
They otherwise never demonstrate the level of power they hold, and the argument that they are "holding back" is flawed. When you fight them, they make it a very specific point not to go easy on them, and the fights themselves are ways of them discovering something new about themselves through being defeated in battle for the first time. This entire plot point would be non-sensical if they were just "letting you win".
The fact that they can one-shot you at any time if you violate their rules, especially when you consider that they are all the 'superbosses' of their respective games and they never even bring up the fact that you violated the rules in conversation makes it seem to me that was put in purely as a method to make the fights harder.
They otherwise never demonstrate the level of power they hold, and the argument that they are "holding back" is flawed. When you fight them, they make it a very specific point not to go easy on them, and the fights themselves are ways of them discovering something new about themselves through being defeated in battle for the first time. This entire plot point would be non-sensical if they were just "letting you win".
The fact that they can one-shot you at any time if you violate their rules, especially when you consider that they are all the 'superbosses' of their respective games and they never even bring up the fact that you violated the rules in conversation makes it seem to me that was put in purely as a method to make the fights harder.
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- #124
I agree with Grath on this one. The VR attendants make it a point to show how surprised they are that you beat them at all. Even the trio bosses in PQ and PQ2 has Margaret showing how seriously she's taking the match and how happy she is that you can compete against her.
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Either way makes them unreliable scaling. We can use outside forces like the Holy Grail tearing Lavenza in half to scale it properly. In this case the issue does not arrise.
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- #126
Thing is, we can easily chalk it up to game mechanics, because as Grath said, the fact that they one-shot you if you break the rules, or that there are rules at all, aren't ever mentioned in dialogue. In fact, the only time said one-shots are ever mentioned is in Elizabeth's Instant Kill animation in Persona 4 Arena.
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I agree with Grath.
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Imo a more accurate AP scaling would be
Ren Amamiya w/ Satanael >>>>> God of Control >>> Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves >> Holy Grail >=? Entire Velvet Room >> Lavenza > Caroline and Justine >> Baseline Low 2-C >>>> Depths of Mementos Phantom Thieves
Reasoning:
Twins as baseline -> defeated by PTs in a group under condition -> Lavenza has her sight restored and now poses a threat to the holy grail -> entire velvet room is sealed by the holy grail -> velvet room (messed up and needs repair) -> holy grail -> post jailbreak PTs resist holy grail -> End game PTs scale to god of control -> god of control -> Satanael
Just puting it out there no need to meme me
EDIT Goofed some parts fixed it
Ren Amamiya w/ Satanael >>>>> God of Control >>> Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves >> Holy Grail >=? Entire Velvet Room >> Lavenza > Caroline and Justine >> Baseline Low 2-C >>>> Depths of Mementos Phantom Thieves
Reasoning:
Twins as baseline -> defeated by PTs in a group under condition -> Lavenza has her sight restored and now poses a threat to the holy grail -> entire velvet room is sealed by the holy grail -> velvet room (messed up and needs repair) -> holy grail -> post jailbreak PTs resist holy grail -> End game PTs scale to god of control -> god of control -> Satanael
Just puting it out there no need to meme me
EDIT Goofed some parts fixed it
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Basically I considered the velvet room fight as heavaly conditional, beacuse it is. The attendents at the moment and as far as I can tell, are scaled from end game joker not the other way around.
There is also the problem that the velvet room tends not to interfere directly, a comparison is difficult. I don't want a situation like the MInecraft verse has right now, where a diamond sword is nuke level potancy when it shouldn't be becuase it has to scale to the enderdragon.
There is also the problem that the velvet room tends not to interfere directly, a comparison is difficult. I don't want a situation like the MInecraft verse has right now, where a diamond sword is nuke level potancy when it shouldn't be becuase it has to scale to the enderdragon.
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Well, Lavenza should be equal to Caroline and Justine put together. And what do you mean by "Depths of Mementos Phantom Thieves"? The End-Game Phantom Thieves? Because they are Low 2-C, and so definitively must be above baseline. If you are referring to the Phantom Thieves just before their end-game key, that would make them 4-A. Given dimensionality though, a typical magnitude scale can't really quantify the difference here. So I can't exactly agree with Depths of Mementos Phantom Thieves on that scale.
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My meaning is that you can only fight the twins, in the game, in that key. You defeat the velvet room twins, in a conditional fight, at 4-A when they are 2-C.
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@Mattador
We don't really use NG+ stuff in the scaling. It's why Yu scales to Elizabeth from P4A instead of his own VR Attendant Margaret. That said I agree to that the Megidoloan one shots are more game mechanics. All of them insists that you come at them as if you're trying to kill them or even say they won't hold back.
We don't really use NG+ stuff in the scaling. It's why Yu scales to Elizabeth from P4A instead of his own VR Attendant Margaret. That said I agree to that the Megidoloan one shots are more game mechanics. All of them insists that you come at them as if you're trying to kill them or even say they won't hold back.
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Either that means you are stronger than them, but weaker than the holy grail or weaker than both. Or the fight is conditional. Also having your soul split in half whould by my assuption make you weaker, even if both halves work together. Not by a lot but still significantly. They use low rank personas normally but for the all out attack use ardha. This suggests that they are weaker when seperate and stronger together. Laveneza would probably utilize the standard high level squad.
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NG+ isn't used for scaling, and even if it was, considering that you can enter the fight with Personas that you could harm the Holy Grail with, it would be considered Joker in Low 2-C rather than 4-A.
And again, it needs to be made very clear that, since the Twin Wardens fight can physically only happen in NG+, it simply isn't a good point for scaling. If we accepted NG+ feats as canon, Joker would have Satanael at the start of the game. Obviously an extreme example, but you get my point.
And again, it needs to be made very clear that, since the Twin Wardens fight can physically only happen in NG+, it simply isn't a good point for scaling. If we accepted NG+ feats as canon, Joker would have Satanael at the start of the game. Obviously an extreme example, but you get my point.
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@Hst Yeah I was pretty sure that NG+ stuff wasn't being used. I was under the impression it was and thats why I attempted to make sense of it. If the OP wanted to consider it (like I was given the impression) then I was going to respect their original intent. I was more so confused why the PTs and Holy grail were below the twins when both had defeated them. Couldn't tell which way the argument was for.
All the other teams for example were above their attendants. I was just confused lol.
All the other teams for example were above their attendants. I was just confused lol.
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It's fine. The only reason SEES is the exception for the Attendants fights is Portable.
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To be frank, I don't see why the twins would scale to the holy grail (haha rhymes) if it literally ripped them in half in the first place
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I ment the OP was lowballing the holy grail. The hold grail > the velvet room, let alone the twins. Lavenza does say you saved her master, Igor got (i wouldn't say destroyed) but outplayed.
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The holy grail was the form during the depths of mementos where the prison of regression (The velvet room) was being kept. Perhaps Yaldy did the actual ripping, but the holy grail had the power to keep them there, their memories sealed, and igor in a state of limbo. This is all while he paraded as the fake igor and manipulated all the events of P5. The holy grail essentially was the velvet room for most of the game.
I just don't think all that can be rated under the twins.
I just don't think all that can be rated under the twins.
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Hmm... well, I see where you're coming from. I am a bit dubious about whether those feats (like keeping their memories sealed) would actually be major passive feats. Like, actually first defeating them would likely be far more difficult than keeping their memories locked away.
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His demenor when he allows you to fuse back caroline and justine seems to suggest this. He just lets you fuse them and leaves. Taking over the velvet room was not for power but for an experiment. He holds little regard for both the velvet room and humanity.
Yaldy, in the Holy Grail form, completly makes a mockey of the velvet room. My idea is that either Lavenza is stronger than the twins, which is why Holy Grail Yald is so relaxed with the weaker twins, or the entire velvet room poses no threat to him.
The first is more likely, he dipped pretty quick after Lavenza showed up.
Yaldy, in the Holy Grail form, completly makes a mockey of the velvet room. My idea is that either Lavenza is stronger than the twins, which is why Holy Grail Yald is so relaxed with the weaker twins, or the entire velvet room poses no threat to him.
The first is more likely, he dipped pretty quick after Lavenza showed up.
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I will respect OPs views regaring the twins so
Ren Amamiya w/ Satanael >>>>> God of Control > Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves > Entire Velvet Room > Lavenza > Holy Grail > Depths of Mementos Phantom Thieves (Before erasure) > Twins
-Remember you can only fight the twins before being erased
-PTs tank hits from Yaldy while the Velvet Room was destroyed
Ren Amamiya w/ Satanael >>>>> God of Control > Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves > Entire Velvet Room > Lavenza > Holy Grail > Depths of Mementos Phantom Thieves (Before erasure) > Twins
-Remember you can only fight the twins before being erased
-PTs tank hits from Yaldy while the Velvet Room was destroyed
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Eh, the first is actually quite unlikely if you ask me. In the bad ending, where you accept Yaldabaoth's deal, Lavenza is literally standing right there as you make the deal and yet does nothing but accept defeat. If Lavenza was as strong as the Holy Grail, she would have at least put up a fight. When you consider this, and the fact that he's still clearly quite relaxed when he leaves, the second seems more likely. However, it also needs to be noted that there isn't any proof he can't change his form between the Holy Grail and the God of Control as he wishes.
Overall, it's complicated. God of Control is definitely farrrrr beyond the velvet room, that much is obvious. I'd like to hear Solacis' stance on the situation regarding scaling between the Velvet Room and the Holy Grail, since I'm a bit too tired right now to evaluate this properly. XD
EDIT: I always write these at the wrong time without refreshing the page...
Overall, it's complicated. God of Control is definitely farrrrr beyond the velvet room, that much is obvious. I'd like to hear Solacis' stance on the situation regarding scaling between the Velvet Room and the Holy Grail, since I'm a bit too tired right now to evaluate this properly. XD
EDIT: I always write these at the wrong time without refreshing the page...
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The velvet room was moved physcally to the depths of mementos in a specific cell made for them. Morgana was sent with the last of the true velvet rooms powers as the last hope.
The Twins themselves state they were also prisoners. Lavenza also wrote her entries in a way to rouse their memories without drawing Yaldly's suspicions.
The Twins themselves state they were also prisoners. Lavenza also wrote her entries in a way to rouse their memories without drawing Yaldly's suspicions.
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Your right Dark. I was just worried that perhaps I was overrating Yaldy too much by overreaching his ability over the velvet room.
This is the current AP listings
Ren Amamiya w/ Satanael >>>>> God of Control > Velvet Room Attendants >> Caroline and Justine >> Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >>>>> Baseline Low 2-C
My 2 gripes are only that
1/ The Holy Grail is being underrrated and is at least above the twins
2/ The PTs should scale to the God of control since they tank hits from him. There is no reason they should be below the twin, especially if we consider beating them in this account
This is the current AP listings
Ren Amamiya w/ Satanael >>>>> God of Control > Velvet Room Attendants >> Caroline and Justine >> Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >>>>> Baseline Low 2-C
My 2 gripes are only that
1/ The Holy Grail is being underrrated and is at least above the twins
2/ The PTs should scale to the God of control since they tank hits from him. There is no reason they should be below the twin, especially if we consider beating them in this account
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What I'm trying to say is that OP listed P4 and P3 teams as stronger than the attendants, because they deafeated them. That would imply that P5 crew > twins by the same logic. But the P5 crew always gets rekt by the holy grail. By this logic it would suggest that: holy grail > P5 crew (pre erasure) > twins. P5 crew post jail would be stronger than the holy grail as a result also.
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There's no doubt that the Twins absolutely destroy pre-Qlipoth World Joker. If Joker can't, then the full force of the Phantom Thieves would only make them comparable at best. I suppose we could go with this scaling chain instead:
Satanael Joker >>>>> God of Control >>> Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >> Lavenza >/= Caroline and Justine >> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C
This is working under the assumption that the Phantom Thieves grow notably stronger while traversing the Qlipoth World on their way to the Holy Grail. It's more than possible, considering that they fought Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael and Michael on their way. Michael was even considered a full-on boss in the same way as the Palace Rulers and Akechi, what with Blooming Villain being the OST for that fight, while the other archangels were sub-bosses. It could also be that, with Morgana's memories restored and the people beginning to remember the Phantom Thieves, cognition began making them stronger.
This clears things up because now it's understandable how Caroline and Justine utterly wrecked Joker despite him having regained his rebellious will, while also explaining why Lavenza was unwilling to fight back against the Holy Grail should Joker accept his offer.
The pre-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves would still be notably above baseline, because they're able to damage the Holy Grail in their first fight against it, but still get wrecked the moment it gets serious.
Satanael Joker >>>>> God of Control >>> Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >> Lavenza >/= Caroline and Justine >> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C
This is working under the assumption that the Phantom Thieves grow notably stronger while traversing the Qlipoth World on their way to the Holy Grail. It's more than possible, considering that they fought Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael and Michael on their way. Michael was even considered a full-on boss in the same way as the Palace Rulers and Akechi, what with Blooming Villain being the OST for that fight, while the other archangels were sub-bosses. It could also be that, with Morgana's memories restored and the people beginning to remember the Phantom Thieves, cognition began making them stronger.
This clears things up because now it's understandable how Caroline and Justine utterly wrecked Joker despite him having regained his rebellious will, while also explaining why Lavenza was unwilling to fight back against the Holy Grail should Joker accept his offer.
The pre-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves would still be notably above baseline, because they're able to damage the Holy Grail in their first fight against it, but still get wrecked the moment it gets serious.
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Yes, I agree with this. Does anyone else have any opinions?
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