Massive Majora TLOZ Upgrades(Continued)

[GiverOfThePeace]

The New Day icon appeared right after the moon went buh bye. The universe is larger so it could of taken a longer time frame. But again, Nintendo has retconned story elements in the past, hell, the timeline's been revised 3 seperate times.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Just to note, Link has brought objects out of dreams before. His Hero of Hyrule self did exactly that with a plot important item in the game. So to assume he brought it out of his dream isn't completely out of left field, regardless, I don't have the energy to argue this fully.

When did this happen?

Are you talking about the Wind Fish? If so, then that is a false equivalency.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Warren

Termina isn't a dream world, it's a fully existing Parallel Universe, just modeled after Skull Kid's desires. It's never stated to be a "Dream World", so Link bringing with him objects from Termina doesn't contradict it being a different universe. Think of it as something similar to ALTTP's Dark World, which is created using Ganon's desires and that disappears once Ganon is defeated.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I'm going to remain in agreement with Warren.

 

[Dark649]

What if Fierce Deity Link prevented Termina from disappearing due to Majora's defeat.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

When did this happen?

Are you talking about the Wind Fish? If so, then that is a false equivalency.

There's a segment where you must go to sleep in your own dream and get the ocarina from there. Link takes, it wakes up and moves along his day. How is it a false equivalency? The notion of that falls under me calling them equivalent, what I'm saying is that Link pulling items outside of a dream isn't something new from the series so that doesn't auto mitigate Majora creating termina.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren
Termina isn't a dream world, it's a fully existing Parallel Universe, just modeled after Skull Kid's desires. It's never stated to be a "Dream World", so Link bringing with him objects from Termina doesn't contradict it being a different universe. Think of it as something similar to ALTTP's Dark World, which is created using Ganon's desires and that disappears once Ganon is defeated.

The Termina that we know, the one we play in the game MM, according to the HE is stated to be a world wapred or created by Majora using the memories of the Skull Kid.

As shown both by the end of the game, and by the quote in the OP:

-"but finally the third book in Dark Horse's Zelda series Hyrule Encyclopedia revealed the solution to the puzzle that is Termina's existence in the world of The Legend of Zelda. The answer it reveals is that Termina is merely a fabrication, created by the power of Majora's Mask when worn by the Skull Kid, and the world ceases to exist once Link departs at the end of the game."


All of the affects of Majora's magic are erased after Majora dies. The moon disappears, all four regions are cured from their aliments, Kafei isn't a child anymore and finally marry Anju, et cetera.

If Majora created or changed the world and everything in it, and everything created by Majora's magic was erased after death, than it should mean that items that Link obtains in Termina should disappear as well - but they don't.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Also Nintendo has been shown in the past to completely retcon stuff. I don't know why we're simply not assuming the same here.

Because we take the source material (the games) as the highest form of canonicity.

WoG and/or guides are used as secondary sources of information and are disregarded if they contradict what happens in the source material.

If Nintendo released a direct sequel to Majora's Mask that states what is stated in the HE, then this argument for Majora scaling would be full proof and I would agree with it since the source material (the games) would have stated as such.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

That makes legitimately no sense given context but as I said earlier, I really don't care. Back to watching in the shadows.

 

[Warren_Valion]

There's a segment where you must go to sleep in your own dream and get the ocarina from there. Link takes, it wakes up and moves along his day. How is it a false equivalency? The notion of that falls under me calling them equivalent, what I'm saying is that Link pulling items outside of a dream isn't something new from the series so that doesn't auto mitigate Majora creating termina.

I don't know how to quantify the logistics of going to sleep in a dream, so I can't really comment there.

But what I said is, if you are talking about the Wind Fish, then it would be a false equivalency because the Wind Fish is real, while his dream isn't. That wasn't the case, so it doesn't apply.

And I incorrectly verbalized. I admit I used the word "dream" when I shouldn't have because it doesn't accurately apply to what we are discussing, Termina isn't a dream - its a parallel reality. Sorry about any confusion that might have caused.

And what I meant was, the fact that since Majora supposedly created or altered the world of Termina to the one we experienced in MM and the fact that all of his magic was reversed after he was killed - meaning items from that world should disappear as well - like a dream, then Link can't have the items he obtained in Termina because Majora is dead.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Well the Kokiri Sword/Gilded Sword was brought from Hyrule into Termina so that's why it is still with Link.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Well the Kokiri Sword/Gilded Sword was brought from Hyrule into Termina so that's why it is still with Link.

I said the Mirror Shield and the Hero's Bow, not the Gilded Sword.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Also the quote is referring to the world.If it said everything in Termina,yeah that would check out but the fact is that it is only referring Termina.Not to mention Link left with said items and they didn't disappear because he left Termina and entered Hyrule which Majora never affected We,also have another quote saying Majora affected everything in the parallel Universe so even then that woul'nt completely debunk the upgrade

 

[Warren_Valion]

Also the quote is referring to the world not everything and all items with in said world

Majora, according to HE, "altered the world" into the Termina we know from MM, and based its alteration from the Skull Kid's memories.

So all the people, items, enemies, et cetera come from the world that Majora created.


Arguing that everything in Termina is real and would still exist after Majora dies and still believing that Majora "altered the world' is "having your cake and eating it too".

Either Majora altered the world with Skull Kid's memories, or he didn't. You can't have both.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I got to go for now.

Goodbye @everyone.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Support:6(Me,Giver,Triforce,Dark,Dark Dragon,Smashor)

Against:3(Warren,Shadow,Matthew)


Konaguna where do you stand?

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Also the quote is referring to the world not everything and all items with in said world

Majora, according to HE, "altered the world" into the Termina we know from MM, and based its alteration from the Skull Kid's memories.
So all the people, items, enemies, et cetera come from the world that Majora created.


Arguing that everything in Termina is real and would still exist after Majora dies and still believing that Majora "altered the world' is "having your cake and eating it too".

Either Majora altered the world with Skull Kid's memories, or he didn't. You can't have both.

That's not what i was implying at all but whatevs.

I was saying that Link had those items when he left Termina the alternate Universe that was being destroyed and entered Hyrule so it's just as easy to say that Link and his items left Termina's destruction before Termina's destruction along with Skull Kid as well.

Add to it the fact that you have several Canon statements saying that Majora created Termina and it being claimed as a parallel universe(along with the fact that in the same quote it states Majora affected everything in the parallel Universe which no has addressed yet).Link being able to take items from fabricated areas before.Along with the fact that Link very well has left Termina with his items before it's destruction really points to a weak albeit clever counter.

 

[Konaguna]

Konaguna where do you stand?

I agree with the upgrades

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Alright 7 in support now

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

(So does 4-A possibly 3-A) sound good?

 

[The_Smashor]

Sounds good to me.

How many seconds will it take until Link vs Kirby is made if this is accepted?

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

It'll happen so fast that the very speed of the post would transcend the very Infiniversal concept of motion

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Need to point out that vote count doesn't matter and that context and in depth reasonings are the keys.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Well we got Cal and Triforce both on the knowledgeable Zelda members list in and with 5 other supporters must means something,right?

And only one person against whose actually provided an argument was disagreed on by Cal,Giver and Triforce(And myself for that matter but again I don't lol)

So I at least hope that means this thread is going somewhere.....

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean

No offense to Cal

But he has agreed to a lot of things that ended up not getting accepted. So him agreeing doesn't make it 100% true. There are still people opposing it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

That's not what i was implying at all but whatevs.

I was saying that Link had those items when he left Termina the alternate Universe that was being destroyed and entered Hyrule so it's just as easy to say that Link and his items left Termina's destruction before Termina's destruction along with Skull Kid as well.

Add to it the fact that you have several Canon statements saying that Majora created Termina and it being claimed as a parallel universe(along with the fact that in the same quote it states Majora affected everything in the parallel Universe which no has addressed yet).Link being able to take items from fabricated areas before.Along with the fact that Link very well has left Termina with his items before it's destruction really points to a weak albeit clever counter.

All of Majora's magic was erased when it died - any items found in Termina should be included in that because according to the HE, Termina was completely altered or created by said Majora.

So if Majora created those items, and everything he created disappeared at its death, then those items should no longer exist.

Case and point, what is shown to happen at the end of MM. The moon disappears, all four regions are cured from their ailments, Kafei isn't a child anymore and finally marry Anju, et cetera. All of Majora's magic is reversed.

The Mirror Shield and the Hero's Bow would have disappeared upon Majora's death, like everything else did. But they didn't.

Not being in Termina before it was destroyed means nothing - Majora's magic is what sustained Termina's existence, and without Majora - all of that existence, including those items, should have been erased.

To say that they become independent of Majora's magic because Link leaves Termina before it disappears completely is utter nonsense that is supported by nothing.


And what are you talking about? There are not "several Canon statements saying that Majora created Termina"?

There's only one statement - it's in the Hyrule Encycopedia, a guide book which contradicts the source material numerous times. Every other franchise on this wiki that has contradictive information from guide books has those guide books rejected and ignored. I don't see what makes Zelda so special.

Although I agree that there are multiple statements that stated Termina is a parallel universe, however.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Support:6(Me,Giver,Triforce,Dark,Dark Dragon,Smashor)
Against:3(Warren,Shadow,Matthew)


Konaguna where do you stand?

Also, this is disengenious.

This thread is a continuation of this one.

All the votes should transfer over.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

But when the people opposing it other than Warren aren't providing an actual opposition shows there's a weak opposition(other than Warren of course although stated above people disagree with his counter)


3 in opposition(Matt,Shadow,Warren)

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Neon A weak opposition would be "I am against this" without any further elaboration.

Warren is directly countering all the points being made in favor of the upgrades and I think he's the one making more sense.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I didn't refute Warren's points. I added on to one of them.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

In the 2nd quote in the OP it states that Majora affected everything in Termina which also is stated as a parallel Universe.There's honestly no arguing with that

 

[Konaguna]

This basically became 3-A Triforce again

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Konguna,Yeah there's no way this going through in reality even when there's a exact quote saying Majora altered everything in Termina and then proceeds to state that it is a parallel universe

Giver was right

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Yeah,looking it over Warren you make a good point about Majora creating Termina but I still think an upgrade is in order due to the 2nd quote in the OP as you stated you agreed that Termina is a parallel universe.

Please,for now lets forget about Majora creating everything and please adress the 2nd quote as it straight up says Majora affected everything in the parallel universe which is a straight up 3-A feat.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm personally going to have to go back to doubting this now. I honestly had a feeling people were going to say something to get this rejected; and is always especially the case when either Azzy or Matt comment and refute it. And I've always been more neutral and will still be neutral. I obviously would like Universal Zelda to happen eventually, but I am serious when I say the threads have been done to death and there's always a counter argument.

As a side note, Matt did say that arguments for Universal Zelda and Kirby are legitimately better than the ones for Universal Devil May Cry, but we all know how those went.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yeah,looking it over Warren you make a good point about Majora creating Termina but I still think an upgrade is in order due to the 2nd quote in the OP as you stated you agreed that Termina is a parallel universe.
Please,for now lets forget about Majora creating everything and please adress the 2nd quote as it straight up says Majora affected everything in the parallel universe which is a straight up 3-A feat.

The quote was what I debated in the previous thread extensively.

I determined the quote to be metaphoric for the misery that Majora causes to the people of Termina - the main themes that permate throughout the game. And that by "the moon, the heveans, space and time" - the quote means the entirety of the game's setting, Termina - not the entirety of the space-time continuum.


I found it to be a stretch to make the assumption that what was written was stating that Majora is Low 2-C for controlling space-time of a universal-sized reality.


I will not argue that point any further,

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

No not that quote the one stated before it referring to woodfall

 

[Warren_Valion]

This one?

Ahhh, the same points apply.

The word "everything" is a majority of the time hyperbolic in nature, like the words endless and infinite.

Let me give you an example of the kind of language I am referring to with a sentence:

"'So great was her endless suffering, her agony unmatched. 'She had always known childbirth would hurt, but knowing about something and actually going through it are two different things. As the seconds turned to minutes, and the minutes turn to hours, all she had known was pain."

This sentence that I just wrote up tells of a woman giving birth and the pain that she is going through. I used the phrase "endless suffering" in this sentence. Does that mean that this woman is literally suffering endlessly? No, it doesn't, because this sentence wasn't literal, it was metaphorical flowery language to make what I was writing sound more grandiose.


The same thing is with this quote, its flowery language, and is not meant to be taken literally.

This is the quote:

"Two ledges flank the owl's waterfall. On one side is the ledge where the owl taught you the Song of Soaring. At the other edge is a tunnel. By entering it, you reach Woodfall, the bog where an ancient Deku temple lies submerged beneath the poisoned water. The water was once pure, but like everything else in the parallel universe, it had become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask."

By everything, they mean that, like with poisoning the swamp water, Majora ruins everywhere it goes, and brings misery to all of those who live in Termina.

They don't mean that Majora controls every single particle in the cosmos or something like that. You would need physical proof to definitively say something like that, and it just doesn't exist.

 

[Antvasima]

Azathoth just stated that he is taking a break from the wiki, so we might regrettably have to try to solve this without him.

What do the other staff members here think of Warren's points?

 

[Dark649]

I checked Warren points, so i change my vote to neutral.