Massive Majora TLOZ Upgrades(Continued)

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Same here, Warren also makes good points, so I'll remain neutral.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I'd wait for Triforce and Oblivion to refute.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I won't really have much time this month to debate, or at least less than usual. I'll say two things though. Warren is looking at every single piece of evidence singularly instead of looking at the bigger picture. Could that statement about Majora changing everything in Termina be hyperbolic? Most likely it would if it were alone. Then we have the statement of Majora affecting Space Time. Could that be flowery language? Possible, but if you consider the previous statement of Majora affecting everything in Termina, both become quite credible. Lastly, the statement of Majora creating Termina may be contradicted by a single, vague, in-game screen, but compared to the previous statements, it seems much more likely that it's either an error by the developers, an ability of Link, as we see in the scene of the Ocarina in LA or Link keeping the Red Mail and Mirror Shield in ALLTP despite the Dark World disappearing, just like this case, or maybe they just wanted to retconnect that scene. Simply using such a vague scene to disprove such a direct statement is disingenuous.

Lastly, the statement about Termina being an universe and parallel to Hyrule is probably going to be enough proof for that 3-A upgrade thread that was closed for lack of definitive proof.

 

[Antvasima]

I will have to unsubscribe from this thread due to overwork. You can send me a message when you have finished the discussion and reached a consensus, in case you need my help.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm viewing these quotes singularly, because these are different quotes, with different contexts to them, and are probably from different guides entirely.

This isn't a single blob of text where the context showcases that what is said is meant to be taken literally. It's a bunch of quotes from random points in different guides that were released over the course of many years and brought together for this CRT.

So yes, all of these quotes can be seen as metaphoric. As they don't work off one another in any way, they don't build a context which demonstate that Majora can in-fact, control all of reality. They exist independent of one another and mean nothing in retrospect.


Link doesn't keep the Ocarina after he wakes up from the Wind Fish's Dream. He wakes up back on his raft like at the beginning of the game, and sees the Wind Fish fly away. Link being able to bring an object from a dream in a dream, would most likely just be the weird "logic" of Wind Fish's dream. Not an ability that Link possesses.


And the Dark World and Termina aren't really the same situation.

The Dark World is a corrupted Sacred Realm. The monsters and creatures that exists in the Dark World are people whose forms are changed to reflect what is inside their hearts and minds. Getting rid of Ganondorf's influnece wouldn't erase the people or objects of the Dark World, because those things are dependent of Ganondorf's magic to exist, it would erase Ganondorf's corruption of upon the world and the people who inhabit it - which it did.

Termina is different. It is stated in the HE that the world was altered in accordence to the memories of the Skull Kid, the people and world weren't corrupted like in the Dark World, they were created by Majora. Majora didn't change someone to look like Anju, it made a doppelganger of the Cucco lady from Hyrule beacuse the Skull Kid has a memory of her. The Skull Kid's memories are what caused the Termina, and all of the things inside it that we see in MM, to exist according to the quote from the HE that you are using.

That isn't quite the same as the Dark World - so Link keeping the Red Mail and the Mirror Shield in ALTTP means nothing.


Also, I think I should preface this, but I doubt Termina's existence being apart of Majora's creation in the first place because Termina still existed even after all of Majora's magic was reversed after Majora's death, we even get to see a celestial body instantly vanish. My point about Link maintaining his items was me playing Devil's Advocate to the quote in HE saying it vanished only after Link left Termina, which makes no real sense.

 

[Konaguna]

Dark world isn't a corrupted sacred realm ffs, it's an altered version of the light world, and size of the sacred realm does not necessarily need to be tied to the dark world

 

[TriforcePower1]

It doesn't matter if they are different statements or come from different guidebooks. They're all statements that are giving us insight on this matter, so we obviously need to check all of them together.

The possibility of Link simply having that ability was just one of the options. Again, you're using an extremely vague scene to disprove an direct statement. It could literally be anything, ranging from simple retcon, deciding to give him said ability without showing it anytime before, or simply they just didn't care enough to change that.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Dark world isn't a corrupted sacred realm ffs, it's an altered version of the light world, and size of the sacred realm does not necessarily need to be tied to the dark world

Umm. Yeah it is, what are you talking about?

Although the Sacred Realm was called the "Golden Land" in A Link to the Past, guides have confirmed it to be the Sacred Realm.

• "It was only by the magic of seven sages that Hyrule was saved from the wizard's wrath. The seven then sealed Ganon within the Golden Land, which in time became known as the Dark World." (Ocarina of Time Official Nintendo Player's Guide (Nintendo), pg. 6)
• "The Sacred Realm Becomes the Dark World" ('Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books), pg. 69)
• "The Sacred Realm is a mirror that reflects the hearts of those who set foot in it. An evil heart will turn the realm into a living hell. [...] Using the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf became the Demon King. The Sacred Realm was distorted into a nightmarish world where demons ran amuck." ('Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books), pg. 87)
• ". . . There were many who knew of the existence of the Triforce and the entrance to the Sacred Realm because of the events set in motion by Ganondorf. Their lust aroused, they rushed to gain access to the holy land in their quest to obtain the power of the gods. Little did they realize that the Sacred Realm had been transformed in to the Dark World by Ganondorf's evil heart. None returned from their adventures. Instead, only the power of darkness flowed forth." ('Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books), pg. 93)
• "The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart... the heart of one who enters it... If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise." — Sheik (Ocarina of Time)

There's more, but I think that's enough.

 

[Warren_Valion]

It doesn't matter if they are different statements or come from different guidebooks. They're all statements that are giving us insight on this matter, so we obviously need to check all of them together.
The possibility of Link simply having that ability was just one of the options. Again, you're using an extremely vague scene to disprove an direct statement. It could literally be anything, ranging from simple retcon, deciding to give him said ability without showing it anytime before, or simply they just didn't care enough to change that.

Yeah, it does. The statements don't build off each other. They don't make the statements more likely to be taken literally. There being two quotes doesn't mean anything because the quotes don't reinforce any legitimacy. They are just two metaphorical statements in two parts of two guides. That's it.

And assuming that Link has this random, unmentioned, unconventional power without any proof is outlandish, especially since there are more logical assumptions and conclusions that could be made about both scenarios that you mentioned.


And tell me, what's vague about the effects of Majora's magic disappearing after it dies? The Happy Mask Salesman literally states that the Mask has lost its power after Link's fight with it and we visually see everything that Majora created get erased. From the moon, to the curses on the four regions of Termina, to Kafei's age, et cetera.

So the world and items in the world not being erased alongside every other effect of Majora's magic is a contradiction that leads one to believe that Majora didn't create or alter Termina like the HE states he does.


And since the HE is a secondary source (a guide) that contradicts the primary source (the game), I believe it should be disregarded like every other contradictive guide statement on this wiki. I still don't get why Zelda would be special enough that instead of the statement being ignored it would be considered a retcon.

Is Dragon Ball's universe infinite in sizebecause the Daizenshuu says so? No, its not. And neither should the HE's statement on Majora creating/altering the world of Termina based off of Skull Kid's memories. A guide should answers left over questions about the world, it should not completly rewrite said world.


So again, I disagree with this proposal.

 

[Konaguna]

Yeah good job, you took only those quotes and completely left out the ones that state the sacred realm was warped into the dark world.

A link to the past has it's own feats and Statements to back it up, Ocarina f time is just full of inconsistencies regarding alttp because no timeline was ever meant to exist

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Oblivion messaged me telling me that he's feeling "not the best" and told me his rebuke to the argument as to why Link still has his items when he leaves Termina

Kokiri/Gilded Sword:The sword Link has was brought from Hyrule into Termina so it's obvious as to why it didn't disappear

Heroes Bow:While the Heroes Bow in MM is HEAVILY implied to be the same Bow in Twilight Princess nothing confirms that.The bows being the same is a very likely headcanon but a headcanon none the less.Looking at the 2 Bows they're actually quite different as the TP bow has metal on it while the Bow in MM does not.Again there're other Hero Bows in the Zelda Universe so going by pure facts and statements,MM Bow is different to the TP Bow

Mirror Shield:The only thing that's contradicting is the Mirror Shield which can be interchanged with the shield you brought form Hyrule.I don't think that's enough to debunk Majora's death destroying all of Temina but that's up you

Even with the counter it only debunks Majora's death destroying Termina not Majora creating Termina which still needs to be debunked which it hasn't so far.So if the argument was to completely debunk this it would have to adress Majora creating Termina.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yeah good job, you took only those quotes and completely left out the ones that state the sacred realm was warped into the dark world.
A link to the past has it's own feats and Statements to back it up, Ocarina f time is just full of inconsistencies regarding alttp because no timeline was ever meant to exist

• ". . . There were many who knew of the existence of the Triforce and the entrance to the Sacred Realm because of the events set in motion by Ganondorf. Their lust aroused, they rushed to gain access to the holy land in their quest to obtain the power of the gods. Little did they realize that the Sacred Realm had been transformed in to the Dark World by Ganondorf's evil heart. None returned from their adventures. Instead, only the power of darkness flowed forth." ('Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books), pg. 93)

.......?

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

I still agree that no counter was presented that debunks Majora creating Termina.Unless of course there's something which has not been debunked yet.IMO and Oblivion's Majora creating Termina is what needs to be debunked to completely disprove the upgrade.Which really can't be debunked.

 

[TriforcePower1]

So, I've checked Hyrule Encyclopedia, and despite the fact that it's really a huge outlier for Link, this is the given explanation for why the world of Termina doesn't disappear right after Majora's defeat.


It also explains why he can still carry with him Termina's objects, so your whole argument falls. And it being an outlier for Link doesn't mean it's an outlier for Majora.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Oblivion messaged me telling me that he's feeling "not the best" and told me his rebuke to the argument as to why Link still has his items when he leaves Termina
Kokiri/Gilded Sword:The sword Link has was brought from Hyrule into Termina so it's obvious as to why it didn't disappear

Heroes Bow:While the Heroes Bow in MM is HEAVILY implied to be the same Bow in Twilight Princess nothing confirms that.The bows being the same is a very likely headcanon but a headcanon none the less.Looking at the 2 Bows they're actually quite different as the TP bow has metal on it while the Bow in MM does not.Again there're other Hero Bows in the Zelda Universe so going by pure facts and statements,MM Bow is different to the TP Bow

Mirror Shield:The only thing that's contradicting is the Mirror Shield which can be interchanged with the shield you brought form Hyrule.I don't think that's enough to debunk Majora's death destroying all of Temina but that's up you

Even with the counter it only debunks Majora's death destroying Termina not Majora creating Termina which still needs to be debunked which it hasn't so far.So if the argument was to completely debunk this it would have to adress Majora creating Termina.

I never said the Gilded Sword was one of the items so I don't even know why you are bringing it up.

While the Hero's Bow is never stated to be the one from Majora's Mask, the Hero's Shade is also never stated to be the Hero of Time. It's just a logical conclusion that is heavily alluded to in the game's narrative.

And saying that the designs have slight differences, like one having metal on the tip means next to nothing. Hero of Time Link could have upgraded and added parts to the bow, like he did with the Hero's Tunic.


My arguments states that the things that Majora did through the use of its magic were erased and reversed after it died, as shown in the epilogue of the game.

If Majora created Termina, that means that Termina should be erased after it dies because that's what happens to every other magical curse and aliment that Majora caused throughout the game at the time of its death.

This contradicts what is written in the HE, and thus I believe the statement should be disregarded and the upgrade should be denied.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Actually it's not an outleir as Hyrule Historia stated that Link needed the FD mask to defeat Majora so it would give Link a FD key and it would be 3-A

Oh yeah and the statements are from the same guide

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

-You just made a headcanon that Link altered his Bow unless you can prove it.It's not official.Sure he could have altered the Bow but it's never been stated or shown. -The Gilded Sword was the Sword Link had with him when leaving so yeah I had to adress it

-Heroes Shade is literally states to be the Hero of Time in Hyrule Historia

-I also agree with what Triforce said about Link and his items carrying over

And again you havento debunk Termina being created by Majora which unless you can't this should be added as nothing contradicts this.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Don't quote large texts, please.

 

[Warren_Valion]

So, I've checked Hyrule Encyclopedia, and despite the fact that it's really a huge outlier for Link, this is the given explanation for why the world of Termina doesn't disappear right after Majora's defeat.

It also explains why he can still carry with him Termina's objects, so your whole argument falls. And it being an outlier for Link doesn't mean it's an outlier for Majora.

I don't see how you can say this is an outlier for Link and then use it as a way of upgrading Majora.

You can't pick and choose who gets upgraded with a feat.


And there is nothing here that states why Link can still carry Termina's objects. It says Link's pure heart sustained the world temporarily, until he left, then it was erased. It doesn't mention any items.

And besides, the world was still erased - meaning Link's effect ended after he left Termina, yet he still had his weapons in Hyrule.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Well Link's pure heart is keeping those items sustainable from Majora's power as they're literally on his body/person

And it's not an outlier as reason stated in the OP

You also never addressed Majora creating Termina which is literally the foundation for this upgrade

And sorry I didn't realize how big that text ways lol

 

[Konaguna]

Yeah no, Hyrule Historia is a secondary source and I couldn't care les what it says, the game makes it clear that Ganons wish transformed the sacread realm into the dark world which by default makes it equal to light world

 

[Warren_Valion]

-You just made a headcanon that Link altered his Bow unless you can prove it.It's not official.Sure he could have altered the Bow but it's never been stated or shown. -The Gilded Sword was the Sword Link had with him when leaving so yeah I had to adress it

-Heroes Shade is literally states to be the Hero of Time in Hyrule Historia

-I also agree with what Triforce said about Link and his items carrying over

And again you havento debunk Termina being created by Majora which unless you can't this should be added as nothing contradicts this.

Don't quote giant walls of text.


That's why I said could have. I'm not definitive, because this wasn't proven by Nintendo, its just a logical assumption I made because the Hero of Time is the ancient hero they talked about in the game, and the items that the Hero of Time passed down to the Hero of Twilight look somewhat different than the ones the Hero of Time used.

And I meant in the game itself, there are things that were implied and hinted at, but not confirmed. Not that years later that is when a guidebook confirms things in the game.


And I have been debating about Majora creating Termina this entire time, what are you talking about? The only thing that states that Majora created Termina was the HE, I said that the HE is contradictive and should be disregarded. That is me arguing that Majora didn't create Termina,

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I don't see how you can say this is an outlier for Link and then use it as a way of upgrading Majora.

You can't pick and choose who gets upgraded with a feat.


And there is nothing here that states why Link can still carry Termina's objects. It says Link's pure heart sustained the world temporarily, until he left, then it was erased. It doesn't mention any items.

And besides, the world was still erased - meaning Link's effect ended after he left Termina, yet he still had his weapons in Hyrule.

Again, Link has shown in the past to be able to do things like take items out of dreams, it's not farfetched to simply assume he can take items out and if the hyrule encylopedia itself states he sustained the world for a while for all we know he sustained the items he brought along.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I can say it's an outlier for Link and not for Majora for:

1. They're two different feats

2. Majora has been doing casual Tier 4 stuff while Link struggles to defeat Tier 6 bosses

The reason why it explains Link keeping his items, as Neon said, is because Link's heart is able to sustain stuff even after Majora was defeated, including objects on his person.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I still disagree with the bosses being only tier 6 but a definitive tier 2 feat for Link when best I can see him at is tier 5/4 is a stretch and makes sense why it's an outlier.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Well Link's pure heart is keeping those items sustainable from Majora's power as they're literally on his body/person
And it's not an outlier as reason stated in the OP

You also never addressed Majora creating Termina which is literally the foundation for this upgrade

And sorry I didn't realize how big that text ways lol

Link's pure heart is stated to "sustain the world for a short time", not his items. And again, this effect was only temporary, it eventually ends.

There's nothing in the OP that states this isn't an outlier, it just states that certain other characters scaling to this wouldn't be an outlier for reasons. And of course, Link being able to maintain a universal space-time continuum is most definitely an outlier.


Using this guide as a reliable source of information to upgrade a specific character when its information has outliers or other logical holes in it make it seems to me like you are cherry-picking the best bits of this guide to upgrade a character.


And no worries, as long as you don't do it again it's fine.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I don't see how you can say this is an outlier for Link and then use it as a way of upgrading Majora.

You can't pick and choose who gets upgraded with a feat.


And there is nothing here that states why Link can still carry Termina's objects. It says Link's pure heart sustained the world temporarily, until he left, then it was erased. It doesn't mention any items.

And besides, the world was still erased - meaning Link's effect ended after he left Termina, yet he still had his weapons in Hyrule.

Again, Link has shown in the past to be able to do things like take items out of dreams, it's not farfetched to simply assume he can take items out and if the hyrule encylopedia itself states he sustained the world for a while for all we know he sustained the items he brought along.

The events of Link's Awakening are within a dream, so like took an item out of a dream in a dream.

The most logical explanation is that this is possible because of the Wind Fish's dream, not that Link has a special ability.

At the end of the game, you see Link waking up on his raft/boat like he was at the beginning cutscene in the game. Nothing we saw in LA is real, and thus applying logic found in a dream world to the real one is facetious.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Why would Majora's feat be an outlier when the only other feat he has is a casual tier 5 feat while he's restricted and a casual tier 4 feat?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Link's items are a part of the world he sustained, so it makes no sense to say that because it doesn't mention his items it's not talking about them, too.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Why would Majora's feat be an outlier when the only other feat he has is a casual tier 5 feat while he's restricted and a casual tier 4 feat?

It didn't say it would be an outlier, I just said that OP doesn't explain why Majora being 3-A wouldn't be an outlier

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Wasn't Majora creating all of Termina a mistranslation? Cam anyone find the orginal Japaense quotes for these ststements? Because, like has been pointed out before, there's quite a big jump that can easily be made with certain translations.

Either way, I don't think I can agree with this for now.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Read Ganindorf's reasonings and the separate Triforce seasonings as they bring forth ideas that go against the outleir.Hyrule Historia stated that Link needed the Feirce Deity Mask to defeat Majora and that would scale to the FD Mask not Link himself but give him a new key with the FD Mask (also in Majora's profile this is stated so either this is correct or the profile needs to be altered).

Since Link sustained his items what's not to say that after the ending his items disappear for the ending cutscene it's very likely that the effect is still taking place.

Your argument here is debunking only Majora's death affecting Termina not Majora creating it

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

The events of Link's Awakening are within a dream, so like took an item out of a dream in a dream.

The most logical explanation is that this is possible because of the Wind Fish's dream, not that Link has a special ability.

At the end of the game, you see Link waking up on his raft/boat like he was at the beginning cutscene in the game. Nothing we saw in LA is real, and thus applying logic found in a dream world to the real one is facetious.

How does that change anything? Wind FIsh is forcibly put to sleep and the nightmares are basically in control of his dream, so why would they remotely allow Link to get the main item that would wake wind fish up?

Occam's razor would suggest Link can simply take items out of his dream.

Actually everything we saw in LA is real, again the Wind FIsh is basically a 6-C Azathoth like cal once said. Hence why Malon was capable of leaving the dream at the end of the game. Every other laws of physics works the same in the dream world, why would we suddenly not apply logic because one part messes with your argument?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Wasn't Majora creating all of Termina a mistranslation? Cam anyone find the orginal Japaense quotes for these ststements? Because, like has been pointed out before, there's quite a big jump that can easily be made with certain translations.
Either way, I don't think I can agree with this for now.

The original japanese quote was what Triforce used originally to upgrade Majora to 4-A and the conclusion was to wait for an english translation. So I have no clue where mistranslation came from.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

This whole counter is seeming like a stretch now tbh And nothing has debunked Majora creating Termina.Only a counter was made about Majora's Death affecting Termina

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It didn't say it would be an outlier, I just said that OP doesn't explain why Majora being 3-A wouldn't be an outlier

Alright just making sure cause literally nothing makes this feat an outlier.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Link's items are a part of the world he sustained, so it makes no sense to say that because it doesn't mention his items it's not talking about them, too.

By that logic, then all of Majora's curses should have still existed because Link was there to "sustain them".

The only thing that Link is sustaining is the "world", the physiucal universe since it's their reasoning as to why Termina didn't instantly disappear.

But Link is stated to only have been able to do that temporarily, until the moment he left Termina.

He is still seen in Hyrule with the items that should have disappeared the moment he left Termina.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Wasn't Majora creating all of Termina a mistranslation? Cam anyone find the orginal Japaense quotes for these ststements? Because, like has been pointed out before, there's quite a big jump that can easily be made with certain translations.

Either way, I don't think I can agree with this for now.

[1]

"Yeah. It clearly says that Termina is a world created by Stall Kid using Majora's Mask power. It's a parallel world in which a peculiar culture believed to be Termina's one but the reason why a lot of characters that existed in Hyrule are present here is because Stall Kid's delusions and memories have taken a material shape. It says that Stall Kid is original from Hyrule and says he got taught a song by someone who could be Saria of the Kokiri (doesn't confirm it's her, only says his words point out to her). The mask itself doesn't say where it comes from and the only explanation is the same given in the game. So the 4 giants were created through the mask as well and were actually some spirits with whom the Stall Kid had interacted a lot and which were turned into those forms. His own personal experiences become the legends of Termina. And it says that once Link defeats the incarnation of Majora and the evil is gone, Termina persists through Link's emotions but once he leaves the world it vanishes from existance. It adds that Stall Kid's world of his heart in which he makes peaces with his Terminian friends (the giants) also experiences a dawn of a new day."

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

By that logic, then all of Majora's curses should have still existed because Link was there to "sustain them".

The only thing that Link is sustaining is the "world", the physiucal universe since it's their reasoning as to why Termina didn't instantly disappear.

But Link is stated to only have been able to do that temporarily, until the moment he left Termina.

He is still seen in Hyrule with the items that should have disappeared the moment he left Termina.

Link removes Majora's curses over the course of the game.

The physical universe? You mean like how items themsevles would be apart of said physical universe?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Read Ganindorf's reasonings and the separate Triforce seasonings as they bring forth ideas that go against the outleir.Hyrule Historia stated that Link needed the Feirce Deity Mask to defeat Majora and that would scale to the FD Mask not Link himself but give him a new key with the FD Mask (also in Majora's profile this is stated so either this is correct or the profile needs to be altered).
Since Link sustained his items what's not to say that after the ending his items disappear for the ending cutscene it's very likely that the effect is still taking place.

Your argument here is debunking only Majora's death affecting Termina not Majora creating it

I think you are confused.

Link would be an outlier because of the scan that Triforce posted above saying that Link after his fight with Majora was able to temporarily sustain the world, and that's why it didn't immediately disappear - which is an enormous outlier for base Link. Not that FD Link scaling to Majora is an outlier.

The quote states the effect lasts until the moment he leaves Termina. We see Link in the Lost Woods of Hyrule with the items still active.

If Majora's magic is what created Termina and its death erased its magic but not all things from Termina (which the Skull Kid supposedly created), then it didn't create Termina