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Massive Majora TLOZ Upgrades(Continued)

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GiverOfThePeace said:
How does that change anything? Wind FIsh is forcibly put to sleep and the nightmares are basically in control of his dream, so why would they remotely allow Link to get the main item that would wake wind fish up?

Occam's razor would suggest Link can simply take items out of his dream.

Actually everything we saw in LA is real, again the Wind FIsh is basically a 6-C Azathoth like cal once said. Hence why Malon was capable of leaving the dream at the end of the game. Every other laws of physics works the same in the dream world, why would we suddenly not apply logic because one part messes with your argument?
Click to expand...
Occam's razor would suggest that since dreams are non-sensical, that being able to bring something out of a dream in a dream is likely the effect of the logic that dream goes by, not an ability that the character has.

When the hell does Malon escape the dream?
 
Giver makes a good point.

And even if this counter does contradict Majora's death destroying Termina.Majora creating Termina still hasn't been addressed and in the guide it's literally a parallel Universe which is a 3-A feat(There's no contradicting this statement and think that this should be upgraded 3-A)

And wouldn't Link sustaining Termina with his pure heart translate to hax not AP?
 
You're applying the dream is equivalent to a irl dream, which it clearly isn't, hence why occam's razor would suggest Link can take items out of his dream. Especially since this dream follows real world logic.

Have you did a no-death run of link's awakening? (Also meant Marin, always mix up the two)

https://youtu.be/EXb76SmthEY?t=873
 
Marin escapes from the dream as a seagull. Not that it matters.

Obviously the reason why Termina disappears right after Link leaves is because Link doesn't have the range to do it. It explicitly says Termina disappears only right after Link leaves. So the items that Link still has are obviously still sustained by him.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Marin escapes from the dream as a seagull. Not that it matters.
Obviously the reason why Termina disappears right after Link leaves is because Link doesn't have the range to do it. It explicitly says Termina disappears only right after Link leaves. So the items that Link still has are obviously still sustained by him.
Click to expand...
It also wouldn't be an outlier as that would translate to Hax in the form of Empathetic Manip
 
I'm done arguing and will unfollow this thread momentarily so I am not incited to come back via a notification as I always do.


I can't argue three people simultaneously who will most likely never change their positions on this topic.

It's too much work for a conclusion that will never happen. And I have just have too much actual work to do (Book Report to write, Physics Test to study for, Calculus homework, et cetera).

I just can't do it anymore and at this point, I don't really care.

I give up. I've presented my arguments and beliefs on the topic, people can see them and give their own opinions about it.


Goodbye.
 
It's not that we won't change our minds it's just the counter you provided is not substantial and strong enough in our opinion.You also never addressed Majora creating Termina,you only addressed Majora's death with a counter that we 3 debunked.

Hope you finish all your HW and pass your Tests as I don't want to distract you further.
 
K so to TL;DR this thread:

Majora created termina and it dissapears upon death as stated by HE. Both japanese and english version state this so there's no "mistranslation"(still no idea where that came from).

Counters to this: Link leaves the world and keeps his items and the world still remained meaning that the world never truly dissapeared. So therefore HE is contradicted.

Counters of the counter: It's outright stated that Link sustained the world for a short period of time and the items he had on him where the only things that remained cause they were still in his range.

The counter to this: It never states items and only refers to the physical universe.

Obvs you know what side I agree with.
 
^Would also like to add that this only attempts to debunk the destruction of Termina.As the debunking of the creation of Termina has not been addressed so far which is the foundation for this upgrade.
 
Current update with votes:

Support:7(Me,Giver,Triforce,DragonMaster,Konaguna,Cal,Smashor)

KM:2(Triforce,Cal)

Against:3(Warren,Shadow,Matthew)

KM:0

Neutral:3(Crimson,Dust,Dark Dragon)

KM:1(Dark Dragon)

Let's hope the new rebbutal for Warren's claims and his new points as well are seen so we can get an accurate vote.
 
Well...

-We have 7 people in support and 2 of them are knowledgeable members while the 3 against have none

-Triforce brought up the text from HE that disprove Warren's debunk with Link's items and even then the counter presented only focused on the destruction of Termina and not it's creation


-To add no one else is arguing anymore against this as Warren quit arguing.And if anyone greatly disagrees they can make their own CRT to debunk This.

At this point for how long it should be added due to the amount of support and lack of substatinal arguments presented
 
Woah that was one weird portal through time and space....

Anyway after looking through the entire thread.I agree with Neon that this should be added
 
Can you summarise the upgrades that you wish to impose, and the characters that would be affected?

I personally think that it would be best to get input from Warren and Azathoth, but the latter is taking a period of downtime to recover his enthusiasm.
 
Antvasima said:
Can you summarise the upgrades that you wish to impose, and the characters that would be affected?
I personally think that it would be best to get input from Warren and Azathoth, but the latter is taking a period of downtime to recover his enthusiasm.
Click to expand...
The OP says all the characters that will be affected except for all 4-B Links
 
I can only pop in for a moment, but during the time since I left I did some research about the Hyrule Encyclopedia, and I came across this.

On this thread, there is this post by 23PQ about the HE, the last thing he mentions is most telling:

"Here's the staff page. The book is written by Nintendo Dream magazine, and Nintendo itself has more of a a counseling role. At the end of the book there's also a 3 page interview with Aonuma from Decmeber last year. It's also worth mentioning that in the intro of chapter 1 (lore stuff), the authors do state that they took some creative liberty for part of the contents, but most are still based on in-game and development materials."

If this is accuarte, then wouldn't this mean that the HE is non-canon?

Similarly to the Zelda mangas, which are non-canon, the authors of the HE aren't from Nintendo, and the HE author even admit to taking creative liberties with the lore not taking directly from the games.


Also @Neon Battle Bind, this is a continuation of another thread - all the votes for the supporting and opposing should carry over to this one.
 
That would'nt make it non canon as the manga was stated as noncanon and still it's stated that it is still based on in game development So I Don't think it is noncanon unless absolutely proven.

And I did carry over the votes,and it would only carry over another supporter JJmil as all the others from the previous thread changed minds to neutral or support
 
Also when was the mangas disagreed upon being non-canon? I saw it agreed that it could count as a tetriary canon, the only non-canon Zelda manga is the one explcitely stated to be non-canon.
 
Also the writers (sorry can't find the actual quote)stated that HE is a continuation on Lore to HH.

So if we consider HE non canon HH is not canon either which is not true
 
Neon Battle Bind said:
That would'nt make it non canon as the manga was stated as noncanon and still it's stated that it is still based on in game development So I Don't think it is noncanon unless absolutely proven.
Click to expand...
Where is the manga stated to be non-canon? I'll tell you, it is by fans like us.

Why? Because there are story elements that are non-existent in the games or just outright contradicted the games.

The same can be said for the HE which wasn't written by Nintendo, and was stated by the authors themselves to have taken creative liberties.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
HE is outright put under watch and was signed by series creator himself, so.
Click to expand...
The HE was given to others to write while Nintendo just signed off on it.

The Zelda mangas were the same way.


Just because the books has the Nintendo Seal of Apporval, doesn't mean that thing is canon.
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
There was a statement saying the manga isn't apart of the actual MM storyline
Click to expand...
Where?

The only thing I remeber written as a sidenote in the MM manga was that the authors couldn't find a place to write in Cremia and Romani even though they really liked the characters.
 
If we consider HH and HE to be noncanon than a lot of changes in the Zelda pages should be altered.

Again we consider HH to be canon as long as there's no contradiction.And since HE is a continuation of HH why wouldn't we do the same?

-"This 328-page book is an exhaustive guide to The Legend of Zelda from the original The Legend of Zelda to Twilight Princess HD.

A comprehensive collection of enemies and items, potions to poes, an expansion of the lore touched upon in Hyrule Historia, concept art, screencaps, maps, main characters and how they relate, languages, and much, much more, including an exclusive interview with Series Producer, Eiji Aonuma! This, the last of The Goddess Collection trilogy, which includes Hyrule Historia and Art & Artifacts, is a treasure trove of explanations and information about every aspect of The Legend of Zelda universe!

  • An exhaustive compendium of everything from the first 30 years of The Legend of Zelda.
  • An expansion of information from The Legend of Zelda timeline.
  • Rare development sketches of your favorite characters.
  • An extensive database of items and enemies."
 
Neon Battle Bind said:
And I did carry over the votes,and it would only carry over another supporter JJmil as all the others from the previous thread changed minds to neutral or support
Click to expand...
No you didn't - this is the vote count if you bring it all over:

Agree: 6 (Neon Battle Bind, GiverOfThePeace, TriforcePower1, Jjmil3827, Konaguna, The Smashor)

Disagree: 5 (Warren Valio, ShadowWarrior1999, Antvasima, CrimsonStarFalle, Matthew Schroeder)

Undecided: 1 (Bobsica)

Neutral: 3 (DarkDragonMedeus, Dark649, The real cal howard)
 
Warren Valion said:
The HE was given to others to write while Nintendo just signed off on it.

The Zelda mangas were the same way.


Just because the books has the Nintendo Seal of Apporval, doesn't mean that thing is canon.
Click to expand...
So I guess we're going to ignore "Aomua looked over it and signed it"?

The Zelda mangas are outright looked over by nintendo and have their approval, the only thing non-canon about them is minor chapters outright stating it's a non-canon sidestory, there's no word from nintendo themselves that it's "non-canon".

I'm sorry but I've provided the reason why it wouldn't be non-canon, burden of proof falls on you to prove why this would remotely be non-canon.
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
If we consider HH and HE to be noncanon than a lot of changes in the Zelda pages should be altered.
Again we consider HH to be canon as long as there's no contradiction.And since HE is a continuation of HH why wouldn't we do the same?

This 328-page book is an exhaustive guide to The Legend of Zelda from the original The Legend of Zelda to Twilight Princess HD.

A comprehensive collection of enemies and items, potions to poes, an expansion of the lore touched upon in Hyrule Historia, concept art, screencaps, maps, main characters and how they relate, languages, and much, much more, including an exclusive interview with Series Producer, Eiji Aonuma! This, the last of The Goddess Collection trilogy, which includes Hyrule Historia and Art & Artifacts, is a treasure trove of explanations and information about every aspect of The Legend of Zelda universe!

  • An exhaustive compendium of everything from the first 30 years of The Legend of Zelda.
  • An expansion of information from The Legend of Zelda timeline.
  • Rare development sketches of your favorite characters.
  • An extensive database of items and enemies.
Click to expand...
The HH was actaully written by Nintendo for one. And the writers of the HH didn't stated that they took "creative liberties" for another.

And the HE has tons of contradictions with the original games, that's the whole reason why there was a debate on the legitamacy of them during this thread.


The HE purpose was to continue the lore established by the HH, but it makes blatant contradictions to not only the games, but the HH itself.
 
Actually that's wrong

Agree:9(Neon,Giver,Triforce,Smashor,JJmil,Konaguna,Stickman,Cal(he agreed in this thread)Dragonmaster)

Disagree:4(Warren,Shadow,Matthew,Ant)

Crimson:He said in this thread he would look into this more and remain neutral

Antvasima:I'm not sure where he stands

Neutral:As stated above
 
Your same exact quote states the creative lliberties was only for unexplained things, otherwise in-game statements and such was used and they were suprovised by nintendo, this is yet again falling upon desperacy.
 
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