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It is higher than that.
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Massive Majora TLOZ Upgrades(Continued)
- Thread starter Oblivion_Lightning
- Start date
- Status
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It's higher than Majora. That's all we know.
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God of War, Devil May Cry and now the Legend of Zelda? Man, this is the year of 3-A video games, isn't it? Not that I'm complaining. Anyway, I have nothing to add. I agree with 3-A.
Hylia is considered a Godess (Though obviously not to the extent of the Golden Goddesses) and I'm pretty sure Majora isn't (Though I may be mistaken), so Hylia and Demise would scale, since obviously Actual gods > Somebody not using any sort of godly weaponry or artifacts. While I think Majora is a god in the Manga, there's nothing in canon material that implies that it is.
Hylia is considered a Godess (Though obviously not to the extent of the Golden Goddesses) and I'm pretty sure Majora isn't (Though I may be mistaken), so Hylia and Demise would scale, since obviously Actual gods > Somebody not using any sort of godly weaponry or artifacts. While I think Majora is a god in the Manga, there's nothing in canon material that implies that it is.
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Of course. It's literally just farther into tier 3 if Majora is tier 3. No numbers. It's just that Majora is vastly inferior to the resident macguffin of the series.
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It won't be a tier jump. Unless the triforce is literally infinitely stronger then Majora (Which it isn't), then it's just going to be a higher degree of 3-A.
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Majora: 3-A (Created Termina, which is said to be a parallel universe)
Triforce wielders (various Links, Cia, and Ganons): 3-A (Vastly superior to Majora)
Legit I don't know what's so hard to understand. 3-A is a tier that's infinitely large. Look at Marble Alien or Amitabha.
Triforce wielders (various Links, Cia, and Ganons): 3-A (Vastly superior to Majora)
Legit I don't know what's so hard to understand. 3-A is a tier that's infinitely large. Look at Marble Alien or Amitabha.
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3-A can go countlessly high in power. Three Dimensional Infinity is High 3-A.
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I mean...yes
That's kinda how things work here
That's kinda how things work here
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The way 3-A works is no matter how high the multiplier it's still 3-A.
If somebody is 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999x baseline 3-A their still 3-A.
If their 3D and their power is finite, then they are at the very most 3-A.
If somebody is 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999x baseline 3-A their still 3-A.
If their 3D and their power is finite, then they are at the very most 3-A.
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There is 0 proof that Termina is the size of an entire real universe and given the themes of the game that seems extremely counter-active to what is actually going on. Not to mention, it is an extreme outlier.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
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Also you people should wait for Azzy.
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Azzy has been inactive for weeks, so someone should contact him via Discord or something if you have access to him.
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Matt.
It's literally called a Paralell Universe.
And it's like, Majora's only feat. His tier 4 feat was casual.
And the Triforce is superior to Majora.
So...
It's literally called a Paralell Universe.
And it's like, Majora's only feat. His tier 4 feat was casual.
And the Triforce is superior to Majora.
So...
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Parallel Universe sometimes means pocket reality; there do exist parallel universes that are only 5-B in size.
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I don't see why a parallel universe shouldn't be assumed to be 3-A unless contradicted.
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I'am 120% sure it's not.DarkDragonMedeus said:
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No interest in starting a debate.
I'm just gonna say that universe size would be the default assumption for a parallel universe (this doesn't need explaining does it) and you folks can decide what applies in this case.
I'm just gonna say that universe size would be the default assumption for a parallel universe (this doesn't need explaining does it) and you folks can decide what applies in this case.
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Leviathan from Metroid created a "Parallel Universe" when it crashed on Aether and splitting the Mass-Energy across two, parallel dimensions; and that's not a 3-A or above feat. Not to mention Light Suit Samus destroyed said parallel dimension and Dark Samus withstanding that same dimensional collapse. And size minimum of Termina would be 4-A given the starry sky, but still no proof of full universe. Azathoth's input is also very important here given how he and Matt discussed numerous times, and Antvasima said that he needs to approve before anything is done.
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Something that is directly called a Parallel universe would certainly be considere, well, a universe. Sure examples of small parallel universes might exist, but they're dumb and very rare. They shouldn't affect our normal standards.
Pocket Dimensions or just vague dimensions in general are a different story though, and should rely on showings.
Pocket Dimensions or just vague dimensions in general are a different story though, and should rely on showings.
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Well, Leviathan should be 3-A if he created a Parallel Universe and if it's not contradicted
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The databook says that its a parallel universe while in other sources it is referred as a parallel world [that word can refer planet or universe], Oot 3D bad ending says that at 1:10 that Majora annihilited this world. If it is refferred as a universe then Majora moon collapse destroyed the entire universe [that seems strange], making his very casual host form above baseline.
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Does the N64 version say this as well?
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Since that's so iconc I'm suprised they replaced it in the 3DS version. Do you know if it still calls it the end of the world in the Japanese version?
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I'd also wait for Warren, but idk if he gave up on debating this or not, i stopped following the original thread.
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Dragonmasterxyz said:
- Sips Coffee* Mhm. Seeing as I've seen no real confrentation happen from it, your sarcasm is correct. I was also being satirical, but meh.
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Wasn't the last thread closed because it was decided to wait for Azathoth to come back an evaluate the different sides of the debate?
That hasn't changed, right? So why was this thread made?
Termina's Size
Anyways, to breify reiterate my thoughts on Termina's size. I agree Andytrenom.
To assume that the Zelda universe is only 4-B or 4-A because "there's no proof that it is any bigger" is faulty logic. What other franchise has to prove that the universe is the size of our universe? Unless directly stated, a universe in a fictional world should be assumed to be 3-A in size, and to reject this would mean that this logic would have to be applied to all fictions if that was the case, and it is not.
Not to mention that Termina's universe is the size of Hyrule's universe. The statements of Termina being called a "parallel universe" are to that of Hyrule. And this is stated in numerous guides. Not to mention it is obviously seen in-game with alternate versions of the characters existing between both worlds.
Here's a quote saying as such:
"A sequel to Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask found Link in a parallel version of Hyrule called Termina, into which the moon was going to crash within 72 hours!"(Phantom Hourglass Official Game Guide (Prima Games, Pg. 5)
There are many others. Sadly, I don't have the time to find them right now.
Majora Scaling to Termina
On the topic of the Majora creating the Termina we know and thus scales to Termina's size, I disagree with that as well.
You mentioned that past events are irrelvant beacuse Majora could have made fake meneories for the characters.
Fair enough, but you are forgetting one thing, Majora died and with it dead, the illusion it supposedly made was erased, that's what it says in quote from the OP:
-"but finally the third book in Dark Horse's Zelda series Hyrule Encyclopedia revealed the solution to the puzzle that is Termina's existence in the world of The Legend of Zelda. The answer it reveals is that Termina is merely a fabrication, created by the power of Majora's Mask when worn by the Skull Kid, and the world ceases to exist once Link departs at the end of the game."
The problem with that notion, however, is that Link still possess the items that orginate from Termina after he leaves and the illusionary magic supposedly disappears:
At the epilogue of the game, Link is seen back in the Lost Woods riding off into the distance. You can see it here.
You see Link in the Lost Woods with the Mirror Shield which originated from Termina. Meaning that this object originating from a dream is, in fact, real even after the dream has ended.
Not just that, but in Twilight Princess, the game that comes after Majora's Mask in the timeline, the Hero of Twilight obtains a bow (as all Links do) called the Hero's Bow - the same name as the one from Majora's Mask. And I believe that it can be the same bow.
A rebuttal might be that "Hero's Bow" is a common name for a bow in Zelda. And while yes that is true as seen in the Wind Waker for example, there is some pressing information that points to the conclusion that the bow in Twilight Princess is the bow from Majora's Mask - the one Link obtained in Termina, the supposed illusionary world.
Dangoro, this guy, states that the bow that he guards was used by "a Hero of the past..." And when one looks at the design of the Hero's Bow in Twilight Princess to the one seen in Majora, there are similarities in their design.
As seen in this picture, the bows from TP and MM have little branches that poke out of the limbs of the shaft, unlike any other bow in the series, even the Hero's Bow from Wind Waker.
Now considering the design, and the placement of each game in the timeline, and the fact "the Ancient Hero" mentioned in TP is confirmed to be the Hero of Time himself. I believe it is fair to assume that the Hero's Bow in TP is the same one from MM, which would give further proof that objects of a fake world are, in fact, real, even centuries after Majora's death.
Adding on to the argument that the Hyrule Encyoclopedia's narrative saying that Majora created the Termina we know from Skull Kid's memories is contradictive and should be disregarded.
Conclusion/Tl;DR
My standing is that if this feat was legit, than it would be 3-A because of Termina being a parallel world to Hyrule, and that the most logical assumption is to believe that the size of a universe that should be assumed to be 3-A unless proven otherwise.
However, I don't find the feat legitimate as there are plenty of examples in which the source material (the game) contradicts the guide that states this feat. And because of that, no upgrade should be applied.
That hasn't changed, right? So why was this thread made?
Termina's Size
Anyways, to breify reiterate my thoughts on Termina's size. I agree Andytrenom.
To assume that the Zelda universe is only 4-B or 4-A because "there's no proof that it is any bigger" is faulty logic. What other franchise has to prove that the universe is the size of our universe? Unless directly stated, a universe in a fictional world should be assumed to be 3-A in size, and to reject this would mean that this logic would have to be applied to all fictions if that was the case, and it is not.
Not to mention that Termina's universe is the size of Hyrule's universe. The statements of Termina being called a "parallel universe" are to that of Hyrule. And this is stated in numerous guides. Not to mention it is obviously seen in-game with alternate versions of the characters existing between both worlds.
Here's a quote saying as such:
"A sequel to Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask found Link in a parallel version of Hyrule called Termina, into which the moon was going to crash within 72 hours!"(Phantom Hourglass Official Game Guide (Prima Games, Pg. 5)
There are many others. Sadly, I don't have the time to find them right now.
Majora Scaling to Termina
On the topic of the Majora creating the Termina we know and thus scales to Termina's size, I disagree with that as well.
You mentioned that past events are irrelvant beacuse Majora could have made fake meneories for the characters.
Fair enough, but you are forgetting one thing, Majora died and with it dead, the illusion it supposedly made was erased, that's what it says in quote from the OP:
-"but finally the third book in Dark Horse's Zelda series Hyrule Encyclopedia revealed the solution to the puzzle that is Termina's existence in the world of The Legend of Zelda. The answer it reveals is that Termina is merely a fabrication, created by the power of Majora's Mask when worn by the Skull Kid, and the world ceases to exist once Link departs at the end of the game."
The problem with that notion, however, is that Link still possess the items that orginate from Termina after he leaves and the illusionary magic supposedly disappears:
At the epilogue of the game, Link is seen back in the Lost Woods riding off into the distance. You can see it here.
You see Link in the Lost Woods with the Mirror Shield which originated from Termina. Meaning that this object originating from a dream is, in fact, real even after the dream has ended.
Not just that, but in Twilight Princess, the game that comes after Majora's Mask in the timeline, the Hero of Twilight obtains a bow (as all Links do) called the Hero's Bow - the same name as the one from Majora's Mask. And I believe that it can be the same bow.
A rebuttal might be that "Hero's Bow" is a common name for a bow in Zelda. And while yes that is true as seen in the Wind Waker for example, there is some pressing information that points to the conclusion that the bow in Twilight Princess is the bow from Majora's Mask - the one Link obtained in Termina, the supposed illusionary world.
Dangoro, this guy, states that the bow that he guards was used by "a Hero of the past..." And when one looks at the design of the Hero's Bow in Twilight Princess to the one seen in Majora, there are similarities in their design.
As seen in this picture, the bows from TP and MM have little branches that poke out of the limbs of the shaft, unlike any other bow in the series, even the Hero's Bow from Wind Waker.
Now considering the design, and the placement of each game in the timeline, and the fact "the Ancient Hero" mentioned in TP is confirmed to be the Hero of Time himself. I believe it is fair to assume that the Hero's Bow in TP is the same one from MM, which would give further proof that objects of a fake world are, in fact, real, even centuries after Majora's death.
Adding on to the argument that the Hyrule Encyoclopedia's narrative saying that Majora created the Termina we know from Skull Kid's memories is contradictive and should be disregarded.
Conclusion/Tl;DR
My standing is that if this feat was legit, than it would be 3-A because of Termina being a parallel world to Hyrule, and that the most logical assumption is to believe that the size of a universe that should be assumed to be 3-A unless proven otherwise.
However, I don't find the feat legitimate as there are plenty of examples in which the source material (the game) contradicts the guide that states this feat. And because of that, no upgrade should be applied.
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This is most clearly using the word "world" in the connation for "planet".Dark649 said:
And to assume that word "world" means "universe" in this connotation is quite a stretch, in my opinion.
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Just to note, Link has brought objects out of dreams before. His Hero of Hyrule self did exactly that with a plot important item in the game. So to assume he brought it out of his dream isn't completely out of left field, regardless, I don't have the energy to argue this fully.
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Also Nintendo has been shown in the past to completely retcon stuff. I don't know why we're simply not assuming the same here.
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In Warren's favor, the New Day meant an entire day passed after Majora was defeated. If this were a case anything similar to LA, the universe would've disappeared immediately after Majora's defeat.
But also what Warren said, I still don't understand our Sacred Realm logic.
But also what Warren said, I still don't understand our Sacred Realm logic.
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