Massive Majora TLOZ Upgrades(Continued)

[Warren_Valion]

So?

All this states is the guys at Dark Horse had a tough time fact-checking their sources when localizing the book from Japan. And they asked Nintendo for help when there was contradicting sources.

And it also mentions how the Zelda developers completely reworked the Zelda formula for Breath of the Wild.


That doesn't change the footnote from the writers at Nintendo Dream magazine saying they made up stuff that wasn't sourced.

And you know that Dark Horse are the English publishers, not the original writers, right?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Argumentum ad populum.

It's not how many people agree, it's who presents the better arguments, especially when there are factors that can skew results (like if I asked a group of Dragon Ball fans if they agree with Xeno Goku being 6D I'm sure most of them would say yes, but that doesn't mean they're right).

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

If Nintendo and the Editor disregards contradictions we should as well.Nothing contradicts this so nothing is standing in the way of an actual upgrade.While yes there are "Creative Liberties" but Anouma then says that most of it is apart of the official source material and with the article it states that the editor and Nintendo diregard the contradictions as canon and there's no contradictions in this thread so the upgrade should happen.Warren never addressed this article or debunked that Termina's creation is contradictive.I also think it's a bit bias that the people opposing everything decides what's canon and what's not but whatever.

 

[Konaguna]

I don't think that he is saying that everything is non-canon, just that the parts that are not confirmed anywhere else are very unreliable.

Unreliable? these books were made to fill in lore that was never mentioned or explained before, that's the point

 

[Konaguna]

If the WoG supports their own work like that, then it's fine, why we aren't already doing so is beyond me, the official timeline is widely accepted and it makes barely any sense

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Did you even read Oblivion's post or the article at all?

Patrick Thorpe the editor who isn't apart of Dark Horse(In fact he states he wants to work with them)states:"Right now I'm on a seven day turnaround," he tells me over Google Hangout, describing his role as editor in a localization process that spans many distinct groups. "The translation team gives me their chunk. I go back and re-write it. I send it back to the Translation team. They fact-check it while doing their next chunk of translation. After it's fact-checked, it goes to our designer. Then it goes to a proofreader and a fact-checker simultaneously. They do their thing. They turn it back to me, so I have to look at the fact-checking, the proofreading, the translation all at the same time. On this never-ending seven-day schedule. It's absolutely insane."

The very fact that Patrick went through so much fact checking,translations and approval from Nintendo to have an offical source speaks volumes.Contiradictions as stated later on should be disregarded or considered noncanon.Ok please prove that Majora creating Termina is contradictive

 

[Warren_Valion]

Have you read any of my posts?

Read this:

"You may have misinterpeted what I was writing about slightly.

I don't find the entirety of the HE as non-canon material. Most of what is in the HE is extrapolated from the games or other guides. And some of their changes or retcons are reaffirmed by Nintendo as legit.

The most notable one I can think off the top of my head is the change of the Oracle games in the timeline. In the HH, the Oracle games were in between ALttP and LA - they were the same Link. In the HE, the Oracle games are after LA, and I believe are a different Link.

That change to the timeline is backed up being the positioning of the game on the Zelda website.

The thing I question is the little foot note on the Staff page which details that the authors are not from Nintendo and that everything they wrote in the first chapter, the one pertaining to lore, that wasn't from the games or from other sources, they made up.

And because Majora creating Termina is completely unsupported, not having said notion reaffirmed by Nintendo, I believe that Majora creating Termina is one of those creative liberties, and that it would not usable to upgrade the characters."

Most of what is written in the Zelda Encyclopedia is legit, and fact-checked. But for the lore, the authors admit that whatever they didn't take from the games themselves or from other sources, they made up.

Majora creating Termina is not from another source, it only exists in the HE, and thus it most likely one of the creative liberties that the writers took. And unlike other retcons in the HE, it has nor been reaffirmed by Nintendo since.

 

[Konaguna]

So basically you're just denying creation of termina because it has only been said in HE?

The books were made to fill things like that in, I wouldn't argue if someone else made termina and was now contradicted but since this a new info there ain't anything wrong

 

[Warren_Valion]

So basically you're just denying creation of termina because it has only been said in HE?
The books were made to fill things like that in, I wouldn't argue if someone else made termina and was now contradicted but since this a new info there ain't anything wrong

AND the fact that the authors of the HE stated they took creative liberties with the lore that they didn't take directly from the games or other developmental materials.

 

[Konaguna]

of course they haven't this is new information they used to expand on the lore

You might think it's unreliable and it may seem so, but truly, it's just an upgrade to previous information

 

[Paul_Frank]

So you're trying to use a piece of information that isn't actually canon but created by "creative liberties" to upgrade a character

 

[Konaguna]

1) comes from an official canon source

2) Does not contradict established lore

3) In theory makes sense

So far all seems good my guy

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Honestly possibly 3-A is what should be put as the canonity is quite clear but has some creative liberties

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

I'm asking for WOG so we can conclude this so we can did anymore confusion or debate of this topic.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

You can't really determine what's Canon and what is not

Again your ignoring that HE went through several intense processes to get published through fact checks,proof reading all done by Nintendo as stated in the article.It has the Nintendo seal and a signature by Anouma which means he is fine with signing off on HE and it's publising.

Anouma and Nintendo both agree that HE adds to the lore of the Legend of Zelda as long as it doesn't contradict anything which is what you have to prove in order to debunk this thread.As both Nintendo,Anouma and the editor agree that contradictions need to be ignored from Canon and for the trillionth time this upgrade and information contradicts nothing

And sure the writers took creative liberties but the fact that Nintendo and Anouma signed off and proof read HE and sold it means that the creative liberties were agreed on by Nintendo unless your suggesting a book approved by Nintendo and Anouma that's points is to literally add more info to the lore as noncanon is absurd especially when the quote your brought up has no actual solid ground as the quote completely contradicts itself.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Oh and the Offical Seal is important to this discussion https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Official_Nintendo_Seal

WHY WOULD NINTENDO LICENSE A BOOK ON LORE AND HAVE IT NOT BE CANON.THAT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE AT ALL

 

[Warren_Valion]

You can't really determine what's Canon and what is not

Again your ignoring that HE went through several intense processes to get published through fact checks,proof reading all done by Nintendo as stated in the article.It has the Nintendo seal and a signature by Anouma which means he is fine with signing off on HE and it's publising.

Anouma and Nintendo both agree that HE adds to the lore of the Legend of Zelda as long as it doesn't contradict anything which is what you have to prove in order to debunk this thread.As both Nintendo,Anouma and the editor agree that contradictions need to be ignored from Canon and for the trillionth time this upgrade and information contradicts nothing

And sure the writers took creative liberties but the fact that Nintendo and Anouma signed off and proof read HE and sold it means that the creative liberties were agreed on by Nintendo unless your suggesting a book approved by Nintendo and Anouma that's points is to literally add more info to the lore as noncanon is absurd especially when the quote your brought up has no actual solid ground as the quote completely contradicts itself.

I am using the authors' statements on what they wrote. Literal Word of God.

And what? You're the one ignoring posts.

I'll explain it again, in the simplest way possible, so even a child could understand it.

The quote:

"Here's the staff page. The book is written by Nintendo Dream magazine, and Nintendo itself has more of a a counseling role. At the end of the book there's also a 3 page interview with Aonuma from Decmeber last year. It's also worth mentioning that in the intro of chapter 1 (lore stuff),' the authors do state that they took some creative liberty for part of the contents, but most are still based on in-game and development materials."

The authors of the book state two things:

• They took creative liberties with the lore which wasn't taken from the games or other sources
• However, most of the information in the book was taken from the games directly or other development materials

Meaning that whatever wasn't taken from the games or other sources that deal with lore, are the creative liberties the authors stated they took.

Majora creating Termina is a concept not mentioned, alluded to, or even theorized on the Internet by rabid fans in any material. Be it the original N64 game, countless guides, or the 3DS remake, a game that added new features and lines of dialogue to the original.

Meaning that Majora creating Termina isn't lore that the authors of the HE extrapolated from in-game or other developmental material sources, it stuff they made up themselves. The stuff they made up, they admitted to taking creative liberties on.


And for the final ******* time, I am not saying the book can't be used for information, most of the information is taken from the games and guides and is accurate, being severely fact-checked by the localization team and their connections with Nintendo.

That's what the guy in the article was talking about. The names of certain enemies and items. Stuff like that. Facts that could be checked.

What I am saying, is that you can't use lore from this guidebook because the lore you are using is made up by the admission of the writers of the very book you are using. As everything they didn't take from sources, they made up.

It's not about contradictions, it's about the additions to the lore not being viable due to the authors stating that it isn't.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

"Encyclopedia is an officially licensed book that is promoted by Nintendo itself. Even the changes to the timeline in the book are present in the official website for the series. These kind of media is normally used by Nintendo to update and/or retcon information present in the games themselves, just as remakes, remasters, and re-releases also do

I got responses from several other sites agreeing that HE is canon and what it's saying is lore based and accurate due to it's offical licensing by Nintendo.Just because Anuoma and Nintendo did'nt directly write it doesn't mean they had a part in confirming it's canonity which as stated in the article is the case.This is honestly such a debunked point presented at this point and it's like beating a dead horse.

 

[Warren_Valion]

"Encyclopedia is an officially licensed book that is promoted by Nintendo itself. Even the changes to the timeline in the book are present in the official website for the series. These kind of media is normally used by Nintendo to update and/or retcon information present in the games themselves, just as remakes, remasters, and re-releases also do
I got responses from several other sites agreeing that HE is canon and what it's saying is lore based and accurate due to it's offical licensing by Nintendo.Just because Anuoma and Nintendo did'nt directly write it doesn't mean they had a part in confirming it's canonity which as stated in the article is the case.This is honestly such a debunked point presented at this point and it's like beating a dead horse.

I am just quoting what I wrote in my last comment, because apparently, you don't read anything I write:

"And for the final ******* time, I am not saying the book can't be used for information, most of the information is taken from the games and guides and is accurate, being severely fact-checked by the localization team and their connections with Nintendo."

"What I am saying, is that you can't use lore from this guidebook because the lore you are using is made up by the admission of the writers of the very book you are using. As everything they didn't take from sources, they made up."


Saying "b..b.but Nintendo gave it the Seal of Apporval!" doesn't affect my argument in the slightest. The majority of the information in the HE is canon - taking directly from games or other sources. There are retcons in the book that are confimred to be the current canon as they are reaffirmed by Nintendo currently - the Oracle games placement in the timeline for one.

However, the lore that isn't extrapolated from the games or other sources is what isn't viable because the authors themselves stated they took artistic creative liberties with said lore.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

"What I am saying, is that you can't use lore from this guidebook because the lore you are using is made up by the admission of the writers of the very book you are using. As everything they didn't take from sources, they made up."

-What!? where is the proof for that.If you read the article you would know that HE went through an extensive process to get published and to get licensed by Nintendo and yes they're refering to the lore so right away this is wrong.

-For the final GODDAMN TIME taking "Creative Liberties" is one thing but since Nintendo and Anouma signed off and licensed HE,the lore would be considered canon due to the extensive confirmation by Nintendo.In the article which you claimed to have read it literally states that the editor and Nintendo both agreed that contradictions in the book should be ignored and be considered non canon.Again there's nothing in here that is contradicted.The Creative Liberties must have been confirmed and passed by Nintendo and Anouma as stated in the article as it has recurved to be offical and licensed by Anouma's signature and The Nintendo Seal(Of course it's important to my argument what universe are you living in?)the only way we should consider something from HE is if it's contradictory as stated in the Article as Nintendo and the Editors disregarded contradictions.They're literally giving us a key in how to decide what's canon and what's not canon in HE.The WOG is very vague and doesn't absolutely confirm the lore to be non canon and it contradicts itself as it says most of it is apart of the ingame material,we also cannot tell if it's talking about the entire book or just the lore and again Nintendo and Anouma were clearly fine with these creative liberties as they literally signed and licensed and confirmed,fact-checked the damn thing and again it's refering to lore.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Again no matter what I say won't change a thing so I'm getting WOG from Anouma or the Editor to confirm this thread

 

[Konaguna]

It doesn't matter what the authors say, at the end of the day, that information is still in the book, which is a canon source, so tell me, when has an author had a bigger role than the product itself? If we always listened to the author we'd not have Outerversal Demonbane today.

@warren

All you're actually doing right now is refusing to accept something because it's an addition to the lore taken from the game.

 

[Antvasima]

This is getting silly. Warren has thoroughly explained why this cannot be used. I will add his suggested rule text to The Legend of Zelda verse page and close this thread. I would appreciate if you do not waste our time by bringing up this subject again.