Massive Majora TLOZ Upgrades(Continued)

[Warren_Valion]

So I guess we're going to ignore "Aomua looked over it and signed it"?

The Zelda mangas are outright looked over by nintendo and have their approval, the only thing non-canon about them is minor chapters outright stating it's a non-canon sidestory, there's no word from nintendo themselves that it's "non-canon".

I'm sorry but I've provided the reason why it wouldn't be non-canon, burden of proof falls on you to prove why this would remotely be non-canon.

I literally answered you. Just because Aonuma signs off on something, doesn't mean anything.

He signed off on the HH, does that make the Skyward Sword manga in the back Canon as well? No, it doesn't.


And no, the mangas aren't canon because they contradict the games. For ****'s sake, the manga authors apologized that they didn't have the space to put in Romani and Cremia in their adaptation of MM. The Link to the Past manga added an OC not seen in the games - they are changing the story to fit the narrative that they want to write, which makes the mangas not canon.

And the proof is that the authors themselves admit to preforming creative liberties on the lore. That's proof enough.


Contradictary material is always treated as non-canon. And despite my love for the series, Zelda shouldn't get any special treatment in that regard.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

This should have been added days ago when no one else was arguing we should just add this due to overwhelming support and now the argument is ridiculous now trying to desperately uncanonize HH and HE

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

If what your saying is accurate Warren then a lot of profiles are screwed up as they are based on HH

And no we consider HH and HE to only be noncanon when the info is contradicting something in game which here is not the case.Please this should just be added and if someone really disagrees they can make a CRT

 

[Warren_Valion]

Actually that's wrong
Agree:9(Neon,Giver,Triforce,Smashor,JJmil,Konaguna,Stickman,Cal(he agreed in this thread)Dragonmaster)

Disagree:4(Warren,Shadow,Matthew,Ant)

Crimson:He said in this thread he would look into this more and remain neutral

Antvasima:I'm not sure where he stands

Neutral:As stated above

Cal stated that he was staying completely neutral in this thread numerous times. I missed Stickman though. And Dragonmaster stated he was fine with 4-A and neutral on 3-A.

The narrative of this thread has changed substainally since this thread started. Honestly not sure if it should still counts with how the arguments have progressed.

This is the updated vote count:

Agree: 7, maybe 8 (Neon Battle Bind, GiverOfThePeace, TriforcePower1, Jjmil3827, Konaguna, The Smashor, Genericstickma, [Dragonmasterxyz?])

Disagree: 4 (Warren Valio, ShadowWarrior1999, Antvasima, Matthew Schroeder)

Undecided: 2 (Bobsica, CrimsonStarFalle)

Neutral: 3 (DarkDragonMedeus, Dark649, The real cal howard)

 

[Warren_Valion]

If what your saying is accurate Warren then a lot of profiles are screwed up as they are based on HH
And no we consider HH and HE to only be noncanon when the info is contradicting something in game which here is not the case.Please this should just be added and if someone really disagrees they can make a CRT

The HH is not the HE. Stop trying to equate them as the same thing.

And yes, that is true. But the HE is massively contradictive to what is written in the games as I have mentioned previously countless times.


And what are you doing? Why are you trying to silence debate in favor of getting your CRT accepted?

We don't just "accept an upgrade and then propose a downgrade later". That's not how things work here.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Majora is very much inferior to the Triforce. That much is undoubtably. Anything and everything that's not the Golden Goddesses (and ALTTP Link) are inferior to the Triforce.

Yes, Majora's feat in the HE is 3-A. Majora made a universe in HE. That much is undoubtable. I guess I have to accept this.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Let's just add this(I'll be happy to do the additions)and if there's something really wrong and contradictive anyone can make a CRT

Arguing that HH and HE are noncanon is not very substantial when we have both been using them.Anither thread based on the canonity of HH and HE should be made but for now let's just add this due to no more counter and more suppourt for the thread other than the canonity.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

I agree with the upgrades btw.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Let's just add this(I'll be happy to do the additions)and if there's something really wrong and contradictive anyone can make a CRT

Again, that's not how things work on this wiki.

We don't just let things happen and then fix them later. Constantly going over and talking about the same stuff over and over again is a waste of time for everyone here, especially hardworking staff members like Antvasima.

 

[Konaguna]

Lets leave manga out of this, we all know none of it is canon

 

[Warren_Valion]

Lets leave manga out of this, we all know none of it is cano

I think GiverOfThePeace disagrees with you on that.

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

Well when the idea of HH and HE is a completely different topic that needs to be addressed likely for an entirely different thread.

I hope this doesn't sound hostile but This should be added as there's far more people who do agree than disagree and only one person is actually arguing against the upgrade.The very counter now is the idea that HH and HE is now noncanon which is an entirely different topic.Let's just add this as no other argument is being presented other than completely altering the canonity of the zeldaverse in this site

Oh now 9 support counting Sixo

 

[Konaguna]

Literally every manga is different than the game it's adapted after, events play out way differently than in the games which are primary canon material.

Even Zeldawiki regards all manga as non canon

 

[Konaguna]

Well when the idea of HH and HE is a completely different topic that needs to be addressed likely for an entirely different thread.

I hope this doesn't sound hostile but This should be added as there's far more people who do agree than disagree and only one person is actually arguing against the upgrade.The very counter now is the idea that HH and HE is now noncanon which is an entirely different topic.Let's just add this as no other argument is being presented other than completely altering the canonity of the zeldaverse in this site

Hyrule Historia is definitely Canon it was created to connect existing Zelda games. Hyrule Encyclopedia should be as well, though I heard a bunch of contradicting things in it so I won't really give a statement on it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Your same exact quote states the creative lliberties was only for unexplained things, otherwise in-game statements and such was used and they were suprovised by nintendo, this is yet again falling upon desperacy.

This is the quote:"

Here's the staff page. The book is written by Nintendo Dream magazine, and Nintendo itself has more of a a counseling role. At the end of the book there's also a 3 page interview with Aonuma from Decmeber last year. It's also worth mentioning that in the intro of chapter 1 (lore stuff), the authors do state that they took some creative liberty for part of the contents, but most are still based on in-game and development materials."

The says that it says that in Chapter 1, which deals with Zelda lore, has everything not taken from in-game and development materials was the own author's creative liberites.

Majora creating Termina is not something stated or implied in-game or in development materials. It's something they made up.


Not even the 3DS remake of Majora's Mask, which added new dialogue in certain areas, adds on to the idea that the Skull Kid created Termina.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

HH and HE are not like the mangas at all in the fact that they present actual lore and add to the canon timeline which we use ALOT so saying it's suddenly non canon is a massive contradiction to several threads and topics

 

[Warren_Valion]

Literally every manga is different than the game it's adapted after, events play out way differently than in the games which are primary canon material.
Even Zeldawiki regards all manga as non canon

I agree with you on this notion, mate.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Just came to say, that last point Warren brought was also used to reject the Majora upgrade in the past. A thing to consider.

Other than that, I am still neutral.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Well when the idea of HH and HE is a completely different topic that needs to be addressed likely for an entirely different thread.
I hope this doesn't sound hostile but This should be added as there's far more people who do agree than disagree and only one person is actually arguing against the upgrade.The very counter now is the idea that HH and HE is now noncanon which is an entirely different topic.Let's just add this as no other argument is being presented other than completely altering the canonity of the zeldaverse in this site

Oh now 9 support counting Sixo

Lore from the HE being non-canon completely debunks the notion of this thread and should most definitely be discussed here.

And that's an Appeal to popularity fallacy. Just because there are more people agreeing with something than against it, doesn't mean what is being agree upon is correct.

And many people are neutral on the topic as well, it's not just agree and disagree.


And again, for the final time, no.

That's not how things work on this wiki.

We don't just let things happen and then fix them later.

Constantly going over and talking about the same stuff over and over again is a waste of time for everyone here, especially hardworking staff members like Antvasima.


Also, I never said that the HH was non-canon, nor even all of the HE was non-canon.

I am just saying the lore which directly contradicts what is shown in the game and the development materials for the game should be considered non-canon as the authors themselves stated they took creative liberties with it per what the quote I quoted states the staff page of the HE.

The quote:

"Here's the staff page. The book is written by Nintendo Dream magazine, and Nintendo itself has more of a a counseling role. At the end of the book there's also a 3 page interview with Aonuma from Decmeber last year. It's also worth mentioning that in the intro of chapter 1 (lore stuff), the authors do state that they took some creative liberty for part of the contents, but most are still based on in-game and development materials."

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Yeah the manga is obviously not canon along with those weird comics

And what you should I. The quote doesn't prove that it isn't canon and considering that the literal description when buying HE is that"it's adding on lore to HH"we should consider what it's saying canon as long is doesn't contradict the source material which is what we decided on in a previous thread.And agin nothing here in this upgrade stated by HE is being contradicted.Thus an addition should be made(of course when the staff are free)

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yeah the manga is obviously not canon along with those weird comics
And what you should I. The quote doesn't prove that it isn't canon and considering that the literal description when buying HE is that"it's adding on lore to HH"we should consider what it's saying canon as long is doesn't contradict the source material which is what we decided on in a previous thread.And agin nothing here in this upgrade stated by HE is being contradicted.Thus an addition should be made(of course when the staff are free)

The authors themselves literally stated that they made up lore that they didn't get from the game.

The notion that Majora's Mask is what created Termina is contradictive in every piece of game material for Majora's mask. From the original game, to the manuels and guides, to the remake, et cetera.


Majora creating Termina is contradictive, if it wasn't, I wouldn't argue that it was. And like all contradictive material, the statement should be disregarded. As I said, Zelda doesn't get special treatment.

You can't deny this.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Here's how HH and HE should work in terms of canonity which was confirmed in previous threads

"HH and HE should only be considered canon when the info doesn't contradict the source material"

And in this upgrade nothing is contradicting and I saw the previous Majora thread and in one of the more recent threads it was agreed on that HE and HH are considered canon unless they contradict the source material

And yes I can deny that can you show me that Majora creating Termina has officially been retconned?

And just because the team took creative liberties doesn't prove the entire thing to be non canon as Nintendo has accepted this book as part of the lore as it adds on to HH

 

[Warren_Valion]

Here's how HH and HE should work in terms of canonity which was confirmed in previous threads
"HH and HE should only be considered canon when the info doesn't contradict the source material"

And in this upgrade nothing is contradicting and I saw the previous Majora thread and in one of the more recent threads it was agreed on that HE and HH are considered canon unless they contradict the source material

Everything using the HE quote saying that Majora is what created Termina in this thread is contradictive. That's why there is disagreement and debate on this upgrade in the first place.

To act like it is not, is being facetious.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

-Show the specific quote that stated that Termina's creation specifically is contradictive as I'm not seeing how.

-You haven't proven how it is contradictive Link's aura restored his items and protects himself from Majroa's Magic,Link's outleir would translate to hax,HE and HH are not canon is the only thing yet to be proven as "taking creative liberties" doesn't equate to being noncanon.It then goes to say in the quote you provided that most of the stuff in there is connected to the in game development materials.That is not enough to prove that HE is noncano

-I'm not being facetious at all I just want proof as all you did is show a quote saying that the team took creative liberties which doesn't prove it's noncanon

There's no counter here

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2420540?useskin=oasis This thread also talks about that HE is canon and that only things that are contradicting should be considered noncanon

 

[Warren_Valion]

-Show the specific quote that stated that Termina's creation specifically is contradictive as I'm not seeing how.
-You haven't proven how it is contradictive Link's aura restored his items and protects himself from Majroa's Magic,Link's outleir would translate to hax,HE and HH are not canon is the only thing yet to be proven as "taking creative liberties" doesn't equate to being noncanon

-I'm not being facetious at all I just want proof as all you did is show a quote saying that the team took creative liberties which doesn't prove it's noncanon

Termina being Majora's creation doesn't exist in any material aside from the HE, and using proof from the HE to try and support your argument is ridiculous when the validity of said guidebook's information is coming into question.


And this notion is contradicted because it was established by all materials (the game, guides, remake, et cetera) that Termina was a land that already existed with its own culture and history parallel to that of Hyrule. The guidebook rewrites what happens in-game to establish its own narrative.

And do you know what "creative liberties" means? It's making up stuff to make what you are writing about more interesting instead of keeping what you are writing about accuate as what happened.

The quote states that the authors admit to making such liberties when they don't use in-game information and development materials - Majora creating Termina is neither of those things and so it is one of those things they made up to make a more interesting story (in their minds).

Where is a quote that's from the game Majora's Mask and/or from development materials that isn't from the HE that proves it wasn't apart of what they made up? It just doesn't exist.


And I never said the HH wasn't canon. Only the HE's lore is questionable because the authors stated that it was.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You're clearly ignoring one part of the quote however, "but most are still based on in-game and development materials."

 

[Warren_Valion]

You're clearly ignoring one part of the quote however, "but most are still based on in-game and development materials."

No I have not.

I have mentioned the words "in-game" and "development materials" numerous times in my post.

Here's a quote from one of my repsonse proving such:

"Also, I never said that the HH was non-canon, nor even all of the HE was non-canon.

I am just saying the lore which directly contradicts what is shown in the game and the development materials for the game should be considered non-canon as the authors themselves stated they took creative liberties with it per what the quote I quoted states the staff page of the HE.

The quote:

'Here's the staff page. The book is written by Nintendo Dream magazine, and Nintendo itself has more of a a counseling role. At the end of the book there's also a 3 page interview with Aonuma from Decmeber last year. It's also worth mentioning that in the intro of chapter 1 (lore stuff), the authors do state that they took some creative liberty for part of the contents, but most are still based on in-game and development materials.'"


So no, I am not "clearly ignoring" anything.

Nothing outside of the HE ever states that Majora created Termina.

None of the dialogue in the original game stated it or even allude to it, and neither do any of the guides as well. Every guide states that Termina is a parallel universe to Hyrule with its own history and culture seperate to that of Hyrule - which contradicts the notion in the HE that Majora made it.

Not to mention, the remake for MM, which was developed around the same time as the HE, doesn't have any added in line of dialogues supporting this either, and that game specifcally added new features and extra lines of dialogue - an example is them adding extra lines to the bad ending/game over screen. If this was a canon-retcon, why weren't lines of dialouge added to the remake to allude to such a belief?

Since the notion of Majora creating Termina was derived from neither information in-game or other development materials, then it means it was apart of what the authors made up.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Doesn't need too because the dialogue is supervised by Nintendo and has it's seal. Aonuma even signed off on this, if he truly thought it was wrong, especially since this is representing a major character of his work, he'd immedieatly tell them to not write that or to emove it. Every guide being a parallel universe to hyrule and having it's own history and culture is not contradicted by Majora making it. That legitmiately makes no sense. The only thing that adds is that Majora made it. Your entire notion is "because it's never used outside" prove Aonuma was against this change since he literally signs off on the book.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If the very author of HE states that it might not contain 100% factual information, then Aonuma signing off the book is certainly not enough to prove that he approves out of every single thing in this book. A creator can approve of anything, even fan projects, without making them canon.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Creative liberties =/= not 100% factual as they're still using the in-canon and are adding to the lore. Except the part in question refers to an important character in not only the verse and the lore. Secondly, the fan project analogy makes no sense, they'll approve of a fan project because it's not an offiical work and a compliment to their series, this is an official book outright sealed by Nintendo. Those are two differnet fronts.

 

[Warren_Valion]

If the very author of HE states that it might not contain 100% factual information, then Aonuma signing off the book is certainly not enough to prove that he approves out of every single thing in this book. A creator can approve of anything, even fan projects, without making them canon.

This.

The Zelda mangas are perfect examples of this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Creative liberties =/= not 100% factual"

Except that this is the goddamn definition of creative liberties. You're making non-factual stuff to spice up the work. You can't have any creative liberties when you're being 100% factual.

They could easily publish fan projects and give it the approval seal or whatever, but that wouldn't necessarily make them canon. I know that comparing HE to fan projects is a bit extreme, but it should get my point across that treating anything "approved" by Nintendo as unedniable truth is flawed.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Warren you destroy your own point as Anouma states that most of it is factual

"but most are based on in-game development and materials"

So it's not all creative liberties so therefore your argument is disproven by your own info

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Most" =/= "All". The fact that they even said "most" implies that some of it isn't based on actual canon material and thus has been made up.

 

[Kepekley23]

Barging in as someone who has read the thread and is leaning more towards disagreeing with the upgrade.

"It might not contain 100% factual info" is an hilarious argument for all the wrong reasons. Of course it might not contain 100% factual information. Neither does any other guidebook out there, or even Primary Canon material. If 5 games said X, but 1 game said Y, then the game that said Y is obviously wrong and that specific sectio would be discarded for being inconsistent, thus proving that "the game is not 100% factual". Since when does that mean the entire rest of the game is unusable?

Have you proven that this specific section quoted isn't factual? If you haven't proven with in-game scans that this is contradictory then just saying "not everything in the book is factual" is a purely fallacious claim, and something that I've noticed to be sadly too widespread in this wiki for its own good.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Thus the argument falls apart as claiming Majora making Termina "noncanon" is false so.....

We go how we always have done go by contradiction.Since Majora creating Termina isn't contradicting it's canon and offical

 

[Warren_Valion]

Creative liberties =/= not 100% factual as they're still using the in-canon and are adding to the lore. Except the part in question refers to an important character in not only the verse and the lore. Secondly, the fan project analogy makes no sense, they'll approve of a fan project because it's not an offiical work and a compliment to their series, this is an official book outright sealed by Nintendo. Those are two differnet fronts.

Yes it does. That is the definition of the words.

Taking creative or artistic liberties is when you alter the what actually happened to make a story more interesting instead of keeping it accurate.


For a non-Zelda related example, the origin of Pegasus from the Mythology in comparasion to his origins from Disney's Hercules:

In the Disney movie, Pegasus was made by Zeus manipulating clouds to create life.

In the mythological legends, Pegasus pops out of Medusa's neck after Perseus decapitates her.

The movie explicitly changes what happens in the legends because it is how the writers at Disney wanted the narrative to go.


To get back on Zelda.

No, Nintendo's "seal of approval" means nothing.

Again, the non-canon mangas have Nintendo's seal of approval, and the mangas explictly change up story elements or add new ones. That doesn't make them canon because it "adds to the lore" or anything like that. They contradict the main source (the games) and are deemed non-canon because of it. No one would say that Ghanti's inclusion in the manga of ALTTP is canon to the story because the rest of the story still follows the game.

The same can be said for Majora creating Termina.


Guys, at this point you are arguing against the authors' words on what they have written in the book you are using as the foundation of your upgrade.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Kep The issue is that this statement has never been supported anywhere else in the verse, let alone canon materials. And I'm pretty sure we ignoring stuff in guidebooks if they're not consistent with the verse.

And while I don't think that the argument that Termina has its own history to be enough to disprove the statement on its own, it does put into question this unsupported statement.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Your argument falls apart as the creator states that most of it is canon so