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Massive Legend of Zelda downgrades

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@Warren

About the Game Mechanics argument (you could have been a bit more explicit that was the problem), the reason it's unlikely to be one is very simple: The moon moving has no gameplay relevance. Differently from all your examples, which generally serve to balance gameplay or are gameplay/hardware limitations, this is entirely graphic. The entire sky is just one big texture, so there's no chance of the moon moving due to some variable. Since it's all just one big video, basically, if the moon moving wasn't intentional, they could have just fixed that. Especially since the moon ALWAYS moves by the exact same amount every single time, there's no variable involved.

Also, yes, the moon moving isn't particularly eye-catching. I hadn't realized it till someone here brought it up as a possible feat for Ganon.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
@Warren

About the Game Mechanics argument (you could have been a bit more explicit that was the problem), the reason it's unlikely to be one is very simple: The moon moving has no gameplay relevance. Differently from all your examples, which generally serve to balance gameplay or are gameplay/hardware limitations, this is entirely graphic. The entire sky is just one big texture, so there's no chance of the moon moving due to some variable. Since it's all just one big video, basically, if the moon moving wasn't intentional, they could have just fixed that. Especially since the moon ALWAYS moves by the exact same amount every single time, there's no variable involved.

Also, yes, the moon moving isn't particularly eye-catching. I hadn't realized it till someone here brought it up as a possible feat for Ganon.
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I am pretty sure that I was very clear with my points.

And that's not necessarily true.

The moon's position could very well be the trigger that causes the cutscene with Zelda to play which resets the world. Otherwise, what would be the factor that does that? It always moves in the same spot, because it is supposed to move in that spot to get the cutscene to play.

The simple fact of it all is that the Blood Moon is a game mechanic to reset the world that has a paint of lore that is a viable excuse that makes it a legitimate event in the story of Breath of the Wild.

If the lore or story doesn't suggest that the moon is being affected whatsoever, then logic dictates that the moon moving is not something that is actually happening, whether for programming reasons or just pure spectacle of it all, who knows.

And that's crazy, if the moon starts coming toward the planet and got that close to the planet in like 3 seconds - it would definitely be worthy of at least a footnote in dialogue by the NPC's whose only purpose is to talk about the Blood Moon or a guide book passage that is specifically made to describe what is happening during the Blood Moon.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Warren_Valion

What about when Calamity Ganon causes an early Blood Moon when he exposes his core?
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Early/Panic/Forced Blood Moons are pure game mechanics. Triforce gave an explanation about it.

And 'exposes his core'? Where are you getting that? The Night of the Red Moon is caused at nights where Ganon's energy leaks out of Zelda's seal.

The energy paints the sky red and revives the dead.

That's what the game and guides tell us. Nothing else, so I don't know where you are getting this 'core' stuff from.
 
@Warren_Valion For whatever reason you seem to think its OK to insult others because you don't agree with there points. Saying my points are "lunacy", "insane" and that my point of view is "irrelevant" is only harmful, counterproductive, and frankly trying to claim my stance is irrelevant while implying that yours is somehow more important is arrogant and disrespectful.

They clearly say in your own scan that "the four giants, like Termina itself were created in a new form by Majoras Mask." But if you want to argue that is just the planet there are still statements such as Majora effecting all space and time, as well as the fact he maintains warped Termina, and it reverts when he is gone, and disappears after he and Link are gone. Those alone are enough to imply he is universe+.

And sure, if you want to say the piece of tri-force has nothing to do with Link maintaining the Universe and it was purely his good heart knock yourself out, even though that makes even less sense. It's not really relevant since Link having that power is outlier and contradicted in the same game since he needed FD to beat Majora, and Majora held the skewed Universe together anyway including space and time, not just individuals and culture etc.

The Heavens is a common term for space, and I don't know what quote your referring to with the four giants being heaven.

So no, my opinion has not changed, and it is dishonest to not even acknowledge they are potentially Universe+.
 
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Just going to point out, creating a dimension large enough to contain a starry sky as well as destroying them is very much 4-A; however, you do need proof that it is a legit pocket reality and not some kind of illusion. Or that they indeed created/destroyed it as opposed to simply teleporting them. Which there are plenty of moves where changing the background to a starry sky or galaxy is nothing but a visual effect.

Also, Triforce and Firestorm make sense regarding Calamity Ganon.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
@Warren_Valion For whatever reason you seem to think its OK to insult others because you don't agree with there points. Saying my points are "lunacy", "insane" and that my point of view is "irrelevant" is only harmful, counterproductive, and frankly trying to claim my stance is irrelevant while implying that yours is somehow more important is arrogant and disrespectful.

They clearly say in your own scan that "the four giants, like Termina itself were created in a new form by Majoras Mask." But if you want to argue that is just the planet there are still statements such as Majora effecting all space and time, as well as the fact he maintains warped Termina, and it reverts when he is gone, and disappears after he and Link are gone. Those alone are enough to imply he is universe+.

And sure, if you want to say the piece of tri-force has nothing to do with Link maintaining the Universe and it was purely his good heart knock yourself out, even though that makes even less sense. It's not really relevant since Link having that power is outlier and contradicted in the same game since he needed FD to beat Majora, and Majora held the skewed Universe together anyway including space and time, not just individuals and culture etc.

The Heavens is a common term for space, and I don't know what quote your referring to with the four giants being heaven.

So no, my opinion has not changed, and it is dishonest to not even acknowledge they are potentially Universe+.
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What?

I'm not insulting you. I am saying that the logic you are inciting doesn't make sense. That it is insane. I am implying that your line of logic is based on incorrect logic, so your stance doesn't have any ground to stand on - debates and arguments are dictated on facts, not belief. Stating that something that is illogical is illogical isn't an insult.

The world doesn't revolve around you, when I am criticizing your points and your logic, that does not mean I am criticizing you personally in any way. Don't interpret my words like that, please.


And what does the Four Giants and Termina transformation by Majora's Mask mean for anything? You do know that Termina refers to the planet/country in that context, right? I highlighted the parts of the surrounding sentences in my last rebuttal to you on how by "Termina" it refers to culture, people, and civilizations.

Here it is again, so you don't have to scroll up:

"When the Skull Kid steals Majora's Mask from a traveling mask salesman, the combination of the Skull Kid’s burdened heart and the evil magic within Majora’s Mask transforms the world into the land of Termina. Termina is a parallel world with its own distinct culture, which is perhaps influenced by Majora’s ancient tribe. This land is also inhabited by races and individuals similar to those found in Hyrule, which were constructed from the Skull Kid's memories and delusions. While many of Hyrule's races, like Gorons and the Zora are present in Termina, the world feels twisted. Different. Full of mechanical advances and watched over by a sinister moon looming large and on course to crush it all."


The context of the Termina that Majora and Young Link maintained is the same context, a country/planet's culture, history, people, etc. Maintaining those things and having them disappear is not a Low 2-C feat whatsoever. It's like a 6-B-ish feat at best

Having "influence" over "space, and time" could mean essentially anything - this is way too vague a statement to be a concrete Low 2-C. This is more indicative of space-time manipulation and universal range than it is Low 2-C AP.


And again, please stop taking a quote from one source and adding it to the Hyrule Encyclopedia quote without explaining the context of both quotes. The Prima guide statement on Majora's "influence" is not apart of the quote that states Majora's Mask "transforms the world into the land of Termina". The 'Termina' that the Skull Kid transforms as stated in the Hyrule Encyclopedia has no evidence of affecting the space-time continuum like you are implying.

Nothing in the Hyrule Encyclopedia implies Low 2-C Majora at all.


And what are you talking about? "The Heavens" has never been used to refer to outer space in like any connotation in fiction ever - I have never seen any example of this, let alone for it to be a common terminology.

Heaven is usually a space that is located outside or above the mortal world, not outer space.

And in Majora's Mask, it is stated that the Four Giants are the Guardian Deities of the world, which likely imply that the land that they exist in when you free them is their 'heaven' of sorts. So if anything, the context for heaven would be that.


So yeah, including a 'possibly Low 2-C' would, in fact, be what is dishonest here.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Correction on my part. It was Dark Beast Ganon's exposed core that causes another Blood Moon.

Click to expand...

Okay, but I don't know how this relates to the argument that is being made.

No one is denying that the Blood Moon is caused by Ganon, it's what happens during the Blood Moon.

If it wasn't clear already.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Just going to point out, creating a dimension large enough to contain a starry sky as well as destroying them is very much 4-A; however, you do need proof that it is a legit pocket reality and not some kind of illusion. Or that they indeed created/destroyed it as opposed to simply teleporting them. Which there are plenty of moves where changing the background to a starry sky or galaxy is nothing but a visual effect.

Also, Triforce and Firestorm make sense regarding Calamity Ganon.
Click to expand...
This is my biggest problem with most starry sky 4-A feats.


Although I don't know how this relates to the Wind Fish because I never played Link's Awakening.

Could we argue about that now? I feel like I am in a washing machine, and this topic seems to be a rendering distraction.


What are the arguments for and against the Wind Fish, I forget at this point.
 
Triforce elaborated that while the Island example made people assume it's just a regular Island level feat in the OP. It mostly referred to the original GB version, where as the Switch remake actually mentions it has an entire world containing seas and skies surrounding that Island. Meaning it's not so much an illusion but that those are indeed real stars in the sky. Wind Fish clearly creates it, but it's something exclusive to him; though Hylia and Demise being superior to lesser deities as Dark649 mentioned on previous thread said possibly 4-A for those two + Skyward Sword Link is fine. It literally is an entire Dream dimension.

Also, for example this is not a 3-C feat since it's a simple wave hand and background change. But this is a 4-A feat because he legit creates the dimension, shatters it with a sword strike, and backed up in in game descriptions.
 
Hmm.

I think I remember someone saying that it is specified in-game that there is nothing beyond the island or whatever, and so that using the star sky would be disingenuous or something.

What the counter to that logic?
 
It was simply said there is no land beyond the island; it's like a flat earth that's nothing but ocean save for that one Island and the skies above it. I'd ask Triforce as he's the one who's did the research.
 
@Warren_Valion You are insulting me when you say that my arguments are insane or lunacy, and that my stance is irrelevant. If you had said you feel the logic doesn't track, or that you think it is illogical then you may be able to claim it is just an observation, but you purposefully chose to provoke and insult me with those terms. Calling somebody's points insane and lunacy implies they are acting extremely irrational and mentally unstable, and is both incorrect as a diagnoses in this case, and clearly meant as an insult, because my points neither indicated that I am insane or a lunatic, or was acting in such a manor, at worst I was misinterpreting some quotes which is by no means a measure of insanity or lunacy. Its the equivalent of somebody saying your arguments are stupid and your point of view doesn't matter on the topic. If your going to insult somebody at least own it, even if you did it unintentionally. But I digress, I'm not overly offended, I am simply pointing out some offensive terms and implications that really should not be thrown around, and the fact I'm not OK with them.

So your arguing that Termina is only a planet and thus the feat is closer to planet level. I can see your train of thought, but that's also contradicted when it is said "like everything else in the parallel Universe, it has become tainted...", implying Majora effected the entire Universe, and the fact Majora was effecting the heavens, space and time also implies it is Universal+ in scale what he warped and maintained. So in context with all the statements saying Majora effected not just the planet but the Universe can fit with them all, but saying he only warped the planet is contradicted by the above statements. So I stand by the fact you can definitely accurately interpret him as Universe+ as well.

I didn't see a mention of the heavens for the four giants so I don't see how that tracks. The heavens is an old time term used to describe the space beyond earth, sometimes called the firmament. They used to use it to describe the sky and stars.

So yes, there is proof of Universe+ tier, since warping space and time, and tainting/maintaining the entire Universe in this way with his influence should at least be mentioned to make the profile accurate and more complete, and if not outright give him the tier be noted as a possible tier.
 
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You are taking this waaaaay too personally dude.

And no, I am arguing that in the context of the Hyrule Encyclopedia quote about how "Majora's Mask transformed the world into the land of Termina" indicates that Termina refers to the planet, or at very least the country. Not that Termina is only the planet in every context at all times.

Context is so ******* important.


There are three quotes used currently to support 3-A to Low 2-C Majora.

The Hyrule Encyclopedia quote, which I have shown that the context explains it was referring to the people and culture on the planet, and not the universe.

And two quotes from the Prima guide, the first being how Majora "tainted everything in the parallel universe" and the other being how his cursed has influence over the heavens, space, and time.

The problem with the first quote is that 'tainting' is corruption, which is hax, not AP. So that quote isn't a viable justification.

And the problem with the second quote is that it is too vague. "Having influence over the heavens, space and time" can mean anything. It is definitely not definitive proof of Low 2-C whatsoever. These two quotes are more proof of space-time manipulation, corruption, and universal+ range than being proof that Majora himself is Low 2-C.

And if I had the sanity left, I would probably make the argument that these quotes are just a verbose way of saying that Majora is ******* shit up all over the place and you need to kick his ass to stop him instead of being legitimate abilities or statements of his power.


So the first quote's context debunks Low 2-C.

The second quote is hax, so no Low 2-C.

And the third is too vague, so no Low 2-C.


You can't just add all three quotes and put them together like one sentence and then take it to work. That strips context for the sake of furthering the agenda. Each quote needs to be dissected on its own. And when you do so, you realize that they seem to fall apart. And it is because of that, putting Low 2-C Majora would be dishonest.


If the Guardians are gods, then it is likely to be a reasonable conclusion that by 'heavens', it means the Chamber of the Guardians were you learn the Oath to Order. This is a far more reasonable deduction than assuming it means outer space - which isn't substantiated by anything at all.
 
Lgamer099_99 said:
I don't think It works like that. In other verses, such as The Witcher, we have different atmospheric and creation magic feats done by mages, but we don't scale that to their magic attacks that other characters can withstand.
You need something to say It scales, even if the source of magic is the same.
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About the Wind Fish's feat.
We really need something in the Zelda verse that confirms that creation and weather feats scale to magic attacks, not only for The Wind Fish, but even for the current Continent and Multi Continent ratings, but this is a story for another thread.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Can we split this downgrade in multiple threads? All of these downgrades are big enough to warrant an entire thread on their own.
Click to expand...

The Zant stuff was accepted and the lifting strength stuff was already taking care of in another thread.

The bomb stuff seems to be somewhat accepted (or not?) I can't tell, but its not the most important thing.

The Calamity Ganon and Majora stuff is nearing its end I think, I hope.


The only thing that really needs the most discussion is the Wind Fish stuff, but other than that, this thread is mostly done I think. So I think we should continue with the way it is now.
 
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Yeah, there's no point of splitting it up, considering we are almost done.

For the record, I agree with Warren here.
 
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@Warren_Valion If somebody says my points indicate that I'm acting like an insane lunatic, and that my point of view is irrelevant then yes, I am going to take it personally. The only thing I'm trying to get through is that you should reconsider insulting people, or their points even, especially as staff, and especially with terms that describe mental illnesses. I don't actually think you consider me those things, but your original post implies it. Anyway enough about that.

When it says "like everything else in the universe its become tainted", that implies he is warping the entire universe in the same manner he did the planet, which should include sustaining it like the planet, and warping space and time as well further supports that it includes space time warping in this "tainting" of the universe, so I disagree that it doesn't count for low 2-C tier personally. I do understand the quotes are from multiple guides btw, but they should still apply regardless. Also warping it into the land of Termina does not debunk the others, it just shows that particular statement was focusing on the planet, but the others above clearly focus on the Universe being warped on the same degree.

I do agree there is a level of vagueness to the whole thing, but he definitely did warp the Universe, including space and time, so saying he is possibly low 2-C would be the most accurate thing to do since it means you acknowledge those statements as potentially being Universe+, but admit they are not specific enough to say he is definitively that tier. Just not mentioning them would be again, dishonest imo.

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to on the topic, so no point in repeating it anymore. While I think giving Majora an alternate tier and listing the Low 2-C as likely, or possible, makes sense, removing Low 2-C altogether and ignoring those Universal statements would likely be a mistake.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
@Warren_Valion If somebody says my points indicate that I'm acting like an insane lunatic, and that my point of view is irrelevant then yes, I am going to take it personally. The only thing I'm trying to get through is that you should reconsider insulting people, or their points even, especially as staff, and especially with terms that describe mental illnesses. I don't actually think you consider me those things, but your original post implies it. Anyway enough about that.

When it says "like everything else in the universe its become tainted", that implies he is warping the entire universe in the same manner he did the planet, which should include sustaining it like the planet, and warping space and time as well further supports that it includes space time warping in this "tainting" of the universe, so I disagree that it doesn't count for low 2-C tier personally. I do understand the quotes are from multiple guides btw, but they should still apply regardless. Also warping it into the land of Termina does not debunk the others, it just shows that particular statement was focusing on the planet, but the others above clearly focus on the Universe being warped on the same degree.

I do agree there is a level of vagueness to the whole thing, but he definitely did warp the Universe, including space and time, so saying he is possibly low 2-C would be the most accurate thing to do since it means you acknowledge those statements as potentially being Universe+, but admit they are not specific enough to say he is definitively that tier. Just not mentioning them would be again, dishonest imo.

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to on the topic, so no point in repeating it anymore. While I think giving Majora an alternate tier and listing the Low 2-C as likely, or possible, makes sense, removing Low 2-C altogether and ignoring those Universal statements would likely be a mistake.
Click to expand...
Saying something that doesn't make sense and being called out on how that logic is nonsensical isn't me calling you a lunatic. It's me calling your argument non-sensical because it is. You need to stop taking this personal. I am attacking your arguments and the logic you are adhering to them, not you directly. And for someone who said that they aren't really bothered by what you interpret my words to mean, you seem gung ho about constantly repeating that I am attacking you personally, even after I explained very clearly that I wasn't.

And no, 'tainted' is clearly corruption, which is hax, not AP as I have already said.

And again, the quote does not say that Majora "warps space and time" just that he has an influence over it - which isn't indicative of Low 2-C at all. It's indicative of him being able to interact with and possibly manipulate space-time at best.

And being able to manipulate space-time =/= Low 2-C AP. Hiro Nakamura from Heroes isn't Low 2-C because he can manipulate the space-time continuum.


Removing Low 2-C isn't a mistake, because none of the evidence behind it enforces that belief if you just take a minute to review the context of the quotes and statements being used.
 
This endless dance back and forth is getting unbelievably tiresome. All arguments have become circular in these two topics at this point, and I don't see any more room for these topics to grow.


Isn't the discrepancy between those that are agreeing with Ganon and Majora downgrades and those that disagree significantly skewed in the favor of downgrading the characters from both staff and regular members alike?

How many more votes are required to assure that a change is accepted? Is what is currently available enough, or is more needed?
 
Warren_Valion said:
This endless dance back and forth is getting unbelievably tiresome. All arguments have become circular in these two topics at this point, and I don't see any more room for these topics to grow.


Isn't the discrepancy between those that are agreeing with Ganon and Majora downgrades and those that disagree significantly skewed in the favor of downgrading the characters from both staff and regular members alike?

How many more votes are required to assure that a change is accepted? Is what is currently available enough, or is more needed?
Click to expand...
I have no idea at what point a change becomes acceptable, but here's the current updated summary of the Ganon and Majora stuff.

No more 5-A Calamity Ganon/scaling:

No more Tier 2/3 Majora/scaling:
 
About Calamity Ganon, some people, including a staff member, agreed with me after I started arguing it’s legit, hence why I suggested the thread split. Also because Paradox should help us support Majora’s feat.

Anyway, about the Wind Fish, I don’t even know why we’re downgrading him. We explicitly see stars on the sky when Link talks to the Wind Fish and the sky is explicitly said to be part of Wind Fish’s dream. The people of Koholint saying that there’s nothing beyond the island are only referring to other landmasses, since the world is still the dream of a fish, and both the Nightmare and the Wind Fish talk about an entire world being created.
 
@Warren_Valion You specifically called my arguments lunacy and insane, and then proceeded to call my point of view irrelevant, you did not just say you thought they were logically wrong like your claiming. If all you said was you thought the logic was off id have no problem with that, but implying that my arguments indicate insanity and lunacy, and then calling other peoples perspectives irrelevant is an outright insult. As a staff you should just own up to when you make a mistake like that, the fact your choosing to still insist you said nothing insulting or wrong is the issue at this point.

In context the "tainting" of the Universe is referred to being the same as the changes he made to the planet and everything else, and it is also confirmed this includes space and time and maintaining said changes. So I disagree, I think it could qualify for Low 2-C.

Manipulating space and time with his power, especially on a Universal scale since its said his influence was similar across the Universe should be considered as potentially Low 2-C.

I don't know that character well, but I don't see an indication his influence effects the entire Universe, Majora's "tainting" and influence is confirmed to do so like on the planet across the entire Universe. If it is just local space and time manip, or just a chain reaction from altering an event of course I agree though. But that's not the case with Majora.

So I disagree. The evidence states he warped the Universe just like the planet, and implies he can manipulate space and time on a Universal scale as well. Also he maintains this warped reality across the Universe, not just planet since we know his effects were similar across the Universe from the quotes. So I stand by the fact removing low 2-C altogether would be a mistake, and make the profile less complete in the process.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
You specifically called my arguments lunacy and insane, and then proceeded to call my point of view irrelevant, you did not just say you thought they were logically wrong like your claiming. If all you said was you thought the logic was off id have no problem with that, but implying that my arguments indicate insanity and lunacy, and then calling other peoples perspectives irrelevant is an outright insult.
Click to expand...
He did that?

... Rude.
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Wait, was the sky said to be part of its dream? If it was, I'm 100% against the downgrade.
Click to expand...
"TO THE FINDER... THE ISLE OF KOHOLINT, IS BUT AN ILLUSION... HUMAN, MONSTER, SEA, SKY...“

The text is using “illusion” as in “dream”, as shown by the fact that it references humans and monsters.
 
I'll just quickly tag everyone who agrees with the Majora stuff being removed and hopefully anyone who hasn't commented since their inital agreements can quickly pop in and say if the new arguments in favour of keeping them have swayed them or if they still think Warren makes more sense. Triforce still has more to say about Ganon so hold off on that for the moment.

Majora: @Warren_Valion, @Antvasima, @Matthew_Schroeder, @Starter_Pack, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Dargoo_Faust, @Da_Lunge_Fish, @Theglassman12, @Eficiente, @Rikimarox2, @Rocker1189, @Setsuna_tenma
 
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