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Massive Homestuck Overhaul (Additions, Removals and changes) (Act 1)

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deonment said:
That's talking about the GAME OVER timeline and how whatever happens there won't impact any of the other timelines out there (including one where they completed the game), and how they can take a break from their canonical life, not that they don't have one anymore
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he is talking about himself though, not roxy, the void is them taking a break from their canonical lives and john says he doesn't think he has one anymore
 
oh yeah, deon, could ya summarize what your thoughts on them? i recall you agree with it, but disagree with RW for vriska and rose (removed the later too), as well as wanting some ideas added like high godly ressurection and concept manip, though those we need to compile the evidence, is that it?
 
Uhhh, tldr:
Stuff that I didn't mention I was fine with
Removals were
Cutting the mention of John being unaffected by the aspects (he isn't and I somewhat doubt the aspects being just furthest ring level in potency but I digress)

The mentions of limited reality warping on the pages

Unbreakable Katana not qualifying for invul and just having obscene dura

First guardian invul not qualifying

Ress only applying to Jane's trickster mode

I had disagreed with vriska's limited reality warping

Aranea shouldn't have alpha timeline fuckery considering how that is a narrator level power (see, the blackout and LE's fuckery)

Additions/Clarifications were
There should be a sburb/sgrub/the game player/element physiology to cover the fact that a good chunk of stuff is shared between them all (like the accelerated development and 4th wall breaking, etc, etc)

All God Tiers should have the nature of their scale to the aspects themselves along with getting CM1 for manipulating them to achieve their effects, with those who have mastery of their aspect (Aradia, Dave, John, etc) having their potency scale to the aspects

God Tier ress should be high godly for scaling to Dave and Rose whose ress brought them back from getting ****** over by the green sun (also it isn't likened to it, when it comes to the mass of causation, it is just stated to be as such)

Including a mention from 6363 for the stuff about John transcending canon, in his statement of him not really being a part of reality anymore

Ult Selves should have AE1 for their true bodiless self and AE2 for any bodies they take on (for examples of proving such think God Tier Caliope, Ult Dirk showing up in pesterquest, the statements from Epilogue and ^2)

Using some of the new ^2 stuff for profile images

Dave getting his keys fixed

It being mentioned how Dave was the person responsible for the meteor traveling through the furthest ring through his manipulation of time

Mentioning how Jade ****** with Space in the furthest ring as apart of her space manip justification (in regards to potency)

Saying it would just be easier to link to dave and nepeta's profile for Davesprite's profile

Causation and the narrative being linked

everyone who is psychically gifted should have mind control resist

Aradia's ghost form should be a separate section in her P&A

Talking about how Aranea should be able to affect non-trolls
 
deonment said:
Snip
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i think the katana should be deleted alongside the genesis frog page tbh, not really much reason for them to exist

if someone doesn't start one, i can start a sburb/sgrub player physiology page, though i'd need help with it

All God Tiers should have the nature of their scale to the aspects themselves

what do you mean by that

we kinda need the evidence for concept manip for them, i haven't found them yet

high godly would need more discussion about it, is a big upgrade and dependent on interpretation and context and stuff

i gave AE type 1 to the true selves, though i'm not sure about the bodies having type 2, since they already have type 8 immortality depending on the ultimate selves, and from what i've seen, avatars of abstract don't get type 2 AE normally, outside of marvel where the physical bodies seem to themselves still be shaped and dependent on their concepts regardless

yeah a LOT of them need new renders, will help a lot when we get the renders from the requiem coffee too, like, poor Jane has a panel not even focused much on her for it, and jake literally uses his damn sprite...kinda like caliborn lol

still trying to find both jade and dave's messing with the furthest ring, the closest i found was jade letting out space distortions after the furthest ring was destroyed and the narration saying that there was no space around her to receive the waves, implying that it would affect the furthest ring

i'm confused what you mean with linking to their pages in davesprite

yeah i think a note or maybe even a new explanation page talking about the in-universe canon and narrative represent and what manipulating them gives you

i'll try to make a new tabber for her ghost form

i'm not sure that's necessary, i don't think the page implies she is unable to affect non-trolls, besides not saying "can mind control trolls" but instead "others", the weakness specifies that she can't mind control them, rather than affect them in general, hell the sleep manipulation part links to her doing it to roxy, unless you'd like me to add there that only mind control doesn't work on humans and that the rest is fair game

what i didn't mention here is stuff i fixed by now as you pointed out
 
ImNot4nUser said:
Sincerely, I made quite some of Homestuck Respect Threads and have a ton of Retcon scans on imgur alongside which page they're from, I'd say that as long as the tier 1 pages are open, I could also give some of the characters (English, Calliope, Dirk and partially John/MSPAR) ACTUAL scans instead of "trust me dude" for their pages.
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oh yeah i saw your respect threads, i'm curious what scans you would like to add there, i can't think of anything else to add to the profiles for now
 
Thelastmlg said:
i'm not sure that's necessary, i don't think the page implies she is unable to affect non-trolls, besides not saying "can mind control trolls" but instead "others", the weakness specifies that she can't mind control them, rather than affect them in general, hell the sleep manipulation part links to her doing it to roxy, unless you'd like me to add there that only mind control doesn't work on humans and that the rest is fair game
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I was just reiterating everything I said in my previous comments, thought that was what you wanted me to do, lol
Thelastmlg said:
i think the katana should be deleted alongside the genesis frog page tbh, not really much reason for them to exist
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Agreed
Thelastmlg said:
if someone doesn't start one, i can start a sburb/sgrub player physiology page, though i'd need help with it
Click to expand...
Yeah
Thelastmlg said:
All God Tiers should have the nature of their scale to the aspects themselves

what do you mean by that
Click to expand...
Thelastmlg said:
we kinda need the evidence for concept manip for them, i haven't found them yet
Click to expand...
Ie all their classpect powers are done through some "manipulation" of their aspect, but it doesn't actually affect it, so the powers (which are rooted in said aspects) would have a (currently) Low 1-A nature and limited CM1 (not combat properly combat applicable) through their stuff because the aspects are literally what let them do their stuff
Thelastmlg said:
still trying to find both jade and dave's messing with the furthest ring, the closest i found was jade letting out space distortions after the furthest ring was destroyed and the narration saying that there was no space around her to receive the waves, implying that it would affect the furthest ring
Click to expand...
I may have mandella'd myself, it would seem, if in my eventual reread (and hopefully I don't get ******* stopped by act 5 being a PoS) I find anything I'll make a CRT on it, though I think at the very least I think John, Aradia, Dave, Rose and Dirk (even in their god tier keys, and pre-retcon for John because it honestly less seems like the retcon actively changed the potency of his control over the breeze/breath, and more like it gave him the ability to actually see and fix the issue), along with Caliborn and Calliope (as God tiers), should have Low 1-A potency and actually applicable concept hax considering how for John, yeah I don't really think I need to explain, stardust glitches and green sun fire and all, Aradia actively used time manip on lord english and bec in the furthest ring along with the rest of her nonsense, the people who reached Ult Tier did so through comprehending themselves and their aspect, and so should have enough understanding to actually manipulate stuff to the same extent, if not higher than Aradia considering how they were able to take that last step, I hope I don't have to explain why the master classes should upscale from literally every other god tier by leaps and miles when it comes to control over the aspects
Thelastmlg said:
high godly would need more discussion about it, is a big upgrade and dependent on interpretation and context and stuff
Click to expand...
Yeah, prolly another CRT
Thelastmlg said:
i gave AE type 1 to the true selves, though i'm not sure about the bodies having type 2, since they already have type 8 immortality depending on the ultimate selves, and from what i've seen, avatars of abstract don't get type 2 AE normally, outside of marvel where the physical bodies seem to themselves still be shaped and dependent on their concepts regardless
Click to expand...
Type 4 and 8 immo based on your AE1 true self is literally the exact same as AE2 based on your AE1 true self, the bodies of Ult tiers are literally just manifestations/avatars of the underlying concept, we see this with ult dirk in pesterquest when he literally makes himself a body, layer by layer, just to talk with us after we don't get the narrator speech.

Speaking of which, the bodies/avatars of Ult Selves and Narrators (mostly Hussie, The Director and MSPA Reader for the latter) shouldn't scale to their abstract/narrator/storyteller forms, considering how they are literally just them taking on flesh and blood, or making bodies that are very much just not their true selves, considering how Dirk went from narrating to not narrating in pesterquest, or how Alt Calliope's physical body was being overpowered by a god tier Jade (while she was still narrating and speaking out loud, btw so more stuff about them not being the same), or the entire array of bullshit that is up with Hussie, along with how their true forms reside in a higher plane of existence and all that jazz,
Thelastmlg said:
i'm confused what you mean with linking to their pages in davesprite
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As in like, in the first key, go
Has all the powers of Dave Strider
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And then list all the powers davesprite has outside of being a sprite of dave
and do the same for but with nepeta for the next key
Thelastmlg said:
yeah i think a note or maybe even a new explanation page talking about the in-universe canon and narrative represent and what manipulating them gives you
Click to expand...
Prolly an explanation page, like what digimon has

Also I notice Gamzee having to precog for the book quote and, no, I don't think that is at all what is meant there, especially with how Terezi could literally still sense Gamzee in that exact same panel, it also doesn't read like "oh gamzee is a proper blindspot to her", it reads like Terezi is overlooking the ******* issues she is "seeing" in Gamzee because of their (utterly toxic) relationship, which John then breaks her out of through the retcon stuff and wow her stuff now "works" on Gamzee again, because she is actually seeing him for who he is rather than who she thinks he is
like
"Terezi has multiple layers of blindness. She is literally blind (i.e. her eyes don't work). But she can still see (via other senses). But she's legally blind, sort of (her nasal sonar makes things blurry, she walks with a cane, and draws like shit). But she has a greater degree of perspicacity in other ways, through her Mind aspect, her cleverness and insight into others, and so on. But she also has certain "blind spots," not unlike Doc does. Some blind spots are similar to everyone else's, like navigating stupid romantic issues with troublesome boys like Karkat. But probably her biggest blind spot is localized on Gamzee himself. Here she worries for his safety, in a fit of vintage Murderstuck dramatic irony. But it's more than just a gag. She just can't seem to lock on to him as a source of trouble, negativity, or outright evil. She gives him the benefit of the doubt, overlooks the red flags, and keeps him in her life long beyond the moment when she should have cut him loose. This acute case of Clown Blindness seems to be the entire foundation of the Gamrezi debacle. It's not until the retcon stunt—which she designs in part to break some negative patterns in her life—that she finally lifts the clown curse. All it took to wake her up was to get John to honk a horn at the exact right moment. If only we all had a John with a horn at the exact moment in our lives when we needed him to honk the most."
Click to expand...
 
An update to Homestuck overhaul has been released. The update will be applied automatically when you check the blog.

The major changes include:

+Added rose's explanation of canon and dissipation to John's powers, thus granting him probability and subjetive reality to his retcon powers and resistances
+added extra justification for void manip and extrasensory senses
+added AE 2 for dirk, but Dave and Rose can't create avatars yet as they rely on robot bodies due to not having adapted to it naturally
+added the dave and nepeta links to davesprite, though i made it clear it was base dave as some of his abilities come from turntables that davesprite gave to dave
-removed gamzee's resistance to precognition
-added the weakeness of direct mind manipulation not working on humans to the condesce that i forgot

the rest would be stats and stuff we need to analyse the scans and reasoning better, so i'd say leave it to a third (upgrade) thread
 
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