Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade

[Veronica]

In the BoG movie it's clear Goku absorbs SSG power and in RoF movie he is SBG and can only go SSB when he goes "SSJ", there is no SSJ1-3.

Also in the anime BoG, he absorbs SSG power in SSJ, surpasses it in base and in RoF he has that power in base and is only able to go SSB when going "SSJ".

In the RoF movie, Frieza says "aren't you going SSJ?" Goku says "I don't need to". Which can only refer to SSB as there is no SSJ1-3 in the movie and in the anime, Frieza asks exactly the same thing and Goku goes SSB instead of SSJ to increase SSG base by 50x fold like in the movie.

Its clear that in RoF movie and in the Anime he has SBG state/power which got done away with when SSJ got shown again.

 

[Nierre]

I still don't know why the anime is even being discussed or utilized as a reason to disagree or be neutral when the anime and its events have no barring on the manga and its events.

Nobody cares about how the anime did it, this has nothing to do with the anime, and everything to do with the manga.

 

[Veronica]

I still don't know why the anime is even being discussed or utilized as a reason to disagree or be neutral when the anime and its events have no barring on the manga and its events.

Nobody cares about how the anime did it, this has nothing to do with the anime, and everything to do with the manga.

Both the anime and manga are based on the movie and can inform each other.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Both the anime and manga are based on the movie and can inform each other.

So? That doesn't mean things in the anime and manga should influence each other just because they go through the same beats.

I mean BOG alone is so different in the anime and manga that it's not even funny at that point. And as far as we know, Moro and Granolah aren't a thing in the movie version of Dragon Ball Super Hero so it's better to not use both as a source of information for one another

 

[Veronica]

So? That doesn't mean things in the anime and manga should influence each other just because they go through the same beats.

I mean BOG alone is so different in the anime and manga that it's not even funny at that point. And as far as we know, Moro and Granolah aren't a thing in the movie version of Dragon Ball Super Hero so it's better to not use both as a source of information for one another

BoG isn't that different from each other. Other than being more powerful and absorbing SSG. That is false it's directly stated that the movie takes place after these events acknowledging them as canon to the anime.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

That is false it's directly stated that the movie takes place after these events acknowledging them as canon to the anime.

So then why does Vegeta mention Moro, Gas, and Frieza alongside Jiren and Broly in the manga, yet Goku and Vegeta only mention Broly and Jiren in the movie? Where are Moro, Gas, and Frieza stated in the movie version if the manga arcs are canon to the movie, hmm?

It's pretty clear that Super Hero is applicable to the anime and manga, but they aren't scaleable to one another and should be judged based off the feats in their respective adaptations.

 

[Hasty12345]

Why is this even a topic of debate?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Manga and Anime go through very different events. just look at the Future Trunks Saga to have a confirmation.

 

[Veronica]

So then why does Vegeta mention Moro, Gas, and Frieza alongside Jiren and Broly in the manga, yet Goku and Vegeta only mention Broly and Jiren in the movie? Where are Moro, Gas, and Frieza stated in the movie version if the manga arcs are canon to the movie, hmm?

It's pretty clear that Super Hero is applicable to the anime and manga, but they aren't scaleable to one another and should be judged based off the feats in their respective adaptations.

It's because these arcs hasn't been animated yet. So it makes no sense to the anime audience to talk about them. Also the manga refers to the anime RoF anime to watch same for the Broly movie. So they can interlink. But lets end it since it isn't about this.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If a problem across all continuities (not just one) is brought up, I will answer how I see fit. Simple as.

The “god-like Saiyan” state, for instance, has no reason to be radically different across all media when it’s the same thing of being a variation of the base form that has SSG’s power. It’s also not exactly implied to be a state one has to actively enter either, even in the manga if you wanna focus on that (in fact, one of Damage’s initial points actually supports me here). It’s more of a natural state of being. So, I would disagree that Goku has to actively enter that state.

 

[Damage3245]

Your objection and disagreement is noted. I just have nothing else to address it with as the scan I've linked seems to disagree with the point you've raised. Whether that remains an issue for the anime continuity is beyond the scope of this thread and not something I'm going to tackle.

 

[Veronica]

If a problem across all continuities (not just one) is brought up, I will answer how I see fit. Simple as.

The “god-like Saiyan” state, for instance, has no reason to be radically different across all media when it’s the same thing of being a variation of the base form that has SSG’s power. It’s also not exactly implied to be a state one has to actively enter either, even in the manga if you wanna focus on that (in fact, one of Damage’s initial points actually supports me here). It’s more of a natural state of being. So, I would disagree that Goku has to actively enter that state.

SBG is only a thing in RoF arc in both continues and in the Copy Vegeta arc. It simply got abandoned during the U6 arc.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not engaging with that. I know what your stance is

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

It's because these arcs hasn't been animated yet. So it makes no sense to the anime audience to talk about them

Completely and wholly irrelevant due to the fact that you're insulating that Moro and Gas are canon to the anime and yet they're not shown to exist in the movie unlike the manga. And this can be subjugated to change if Toei decides to animate the Moro and Granolah arcs, but until they decide to do just that (which seems unlikely because they're all in on Daima) then this point falls flat.

Also the manga refers to the anime RoF anime to watch same for the Broly movie

I politely disagree with this point. Based off the one shot which Toyotaro wrote for ROF and based off the brief flashbacks we get in Chapter 32, the manga uses the movie version of the events which is evident by the fact Tagoma isn't shown being alongside Sorbet and Shisami as part of Frieza's invading force.

But lets end it since it isn't about this.

Then why are you acting like they should be interlinked and can be used together if it has nothing to do with the thread in question? Because if it isn't then you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place, yet you did so I'm questioning it.

 

[Deleted member 40688]

Anyway anime and manga are separate continuties so I don't see how is this going to affect the anime continuity as Veronica is claiming it to be.
Counts me as agree.

 

[Veronica]

Count me as disagree. My stance/explanation makes the most sense in my opinion.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Weird argument that was.

 

[Veronica]

Weird argument that was.

What argument?

 

[RedReaper616]

I do want to say that re-reading it, I've noticed a few things.

3) As support for the above, when asked about how many transformations Goku has prior to the Tournament of Power, Whis answers that Goku has five transformations available; Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. No mention is made of him having a separate "Saiyan Beyond God" form so in order for this count to make sense, Goku's earlier usage of "God-like power" must be his Super Saiyan God form.

This point is weak, thinking on it. While Whis doesn't comment on Saiyan Beyond God, he also doesn't comment on SSJ Grade 2, SSJ Grade 3, or the different Super Saiyan Blue types Goku can use (2 of them, Imperfect and Perfected), or anything like that. He just comments on the main five that amplify his power and create visual alterations. Saiyan Beyond God isn't even an official form. It's simply Goku's Base Form heightened to SSG levels of power via the "Crimson Radiance" SSG leaves behind. It'd make no sense for Whis to comment on it.

4) Some things appear to make more sense if we accept that when Goku is using ordinary Super Saiyan froms that he isn't tapping into "god-like power". When Future Trunks returns to the past and spars with Goku, his Super Saiyan 2 form is comparable to Goku's own Super Saiyan 2 form, with the only comment on his power level beind that he is "much better than Gohan [when Gohan first unlocked SSJ2]".

Then when Goku shifts up a level into Super Saiyan 3, Trunks also powers up with his Super Saiyan 2 Rage form which Vegeta confirms is comparable in power to Goku's Super Saiyan 3. However when Goku shifts into God form - implied to be Super Saiyan God - he instantly and literally stomps Trunks.

If Trunks had somehow risen in power to level of a Super Saiyan God on his own, that would be much more significant to comment on than him just being compared to SSJ2 and SSJ3. Why would Trunks' only be commented on as being way stronger than a SSJ2 Gohan if the actual level he was at was SSJ God?

By this logic, Goku should also have pretty much commented on how MUCH stronger Trunks was. Because Goku was above Cell as an ordinary SSJ in the first chapter or so, and Goku's trained for a few years by this point. Even without Saiyan Beyond God, or SSG, Goku should've used a much better statement to describe the level of power Trunks was at than "stronger than Gohan" as a SSJ2. Hell, Goku thought he could train fight against Buu as a SSJ (Though he gets interrupted), which would then imply Goku should say "You're stronger than Buu!" But he just says Gohan. This point really doesn't prove anything beyond "Goku needs to be more direct/descriptive." Because being stronger than Gohan could mean SSG level to just being barely above SSJ2 Teen Gohan. In short, Goku being vague means nothing.

Moreover, we see that just a few years before the events of the Future Trunks Saga where Trunks travels back in time, Trunks was comparable to Dabura who he defeated by unlocking Super Saiyan 2. With no strong enemies to fight against and no shortcut training, there is nothing implying Trunks could have elevated himself to the level of a Super Saiyan God by the time Goku Black begins his invasion of Earth. What we do see is that though Trunks has elevated his power by a somewhat more reasonable level in that time - up to the level of a Super Saiyan 3 as stated above - but that is all he has going for him.

Trunks was that strong when he came BACK from fighting Black for a decent amount of time in the Future. His strength against Goku and his strength against Black right after Dabura are two totally different beasts. Also, against Dabura he seems to just barely unlock SSJ2, whereas against Goku he had access to a Boosted Variant. Which does prove/show that Trunks power raised to a degree we can't quantify from either fighting Black or training. We also know that Black outright says he didn't have access to Goku's full power, yet, so you can't use Black's strength as a mark against Trunks. Especially when Trunks admits Black has improved in power between his departure and return, and that Black hasn't used SSJ in QUITE some time. (Meaning Black has jumped enough in power through Conflicts with Trunks he's gotten a whole SSJ tier up/no longer needs it to outpower Trunks.) We also know that Black commonly left Trunks alive to get more powerful. It's simply not really a viable anti-feat/point against the Narrative, since Trunks COULDN'T beat Black.

6) In Goku's battle with Toppo prior to the Tournament of Power, we get one of the clearest displays in my view that there is a huge difference in power between Goku as he is normally and Goku when he is tapping into "God-like power". He goes through his conventional forms of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 - however when he announces that he is going to use Super Saiyan God, he states that he'll be on at an "entirely different level". His power catches the attention of several Gods of Destruction and it is only at this point that it is commented on that the battle is "at the level of [the Gods of Destruction]". If base Goku was Low Multiverse level and capable of the same feats as the Gods of Destruction... this statement wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is only when he is explicitly using God power that he has reached the threshold of the Gods of Destruction. This should point to a clear division in power between Goku's earlier forms and his SSJ God and SSJ Blue forms.

I feel like this doesn't take into account that the battle level here at the Expo is exponentially higher than beforehand. Especially since the focus of the arc is fighting a mortal who "surpasses that of a GoD," and is thus really wholly unrelated to the conversation at hand. It's not using SSG as the benchmark, but SSG Goku at that specific moment. Otherwise there would have been no point in the power jumps between BoG and that fight, and the two levels of power would be identical. And that's clearly not the case. But that's just me.

7) This emphasis on the God forms being a substantial leap higher than the regular Super Saiyan forms is repeated in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga, where in Goku's sparring match with Merus, Goku shifts up from Super Saiyan 3 to his Super Saiyan God form and the resulting energy is powerful enough to damage the sparring chamber.

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SSG being above SSJ3 as an amp they can apply on themselves, which has existed since U6vU7, doesn't really mean anything/affect how Saiyan Beyond God works as a state of being on their powers.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If it helps,

The film version of Resurrection 'F' is reportedly the canonical sequel to the manga's God of Destruction Beerus Saga.

 

[Veronica]

The fact that manga Goku goes SSG in the U6 arc. Debunks SBG concept being used further on. Because why would he use SBG to be at SSG level. When he is simply already at that level with SSG transformation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Snip

Yeah, those points are the ones I took the biggest issue with. Only the first two really hold any meaningful weight, in my opinion. Given my stance on the second point, too, that leaves only the first one for me - which my view on the second point also kinda explains away.

That pretty much sums up my reason for disagreement, excluding anime/movie stuff since it’s not super relevant.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

If it helps,

The film version of Resurrection 'F' is reportedly the canonical sequel to the manga's God of Destruction Beerus Saga.

So then this disproves the anime and manga being interconnected to one another as it was claimed above, thank you for sharing this.

 

[Damage3245]

I do want to say that re-reading it, I've noticed a few things.

Okay, noted, but all those things are just support for my main argument which is covered in points 1 and 2. You can disagree with all those support points and it still doesn't affect the main arguments.

SSG being above SSJ3 as an amp they can apply on themselves, which has existed since U6vU7, doesn't really mean anything/affect how Saiyan Beyond God works as a state of being on their powers.

I'd consider it pretty relevant because if Saiyan Beyond God is just them using the power of Super Saiyan God in their base forms, and Goku's Super Saiyan God is stronger than his Super Saiyan 3, then that proves that Goku when he is using Super Saiyan 3 or lower Super Saiyan states is weaker than when he is using Saiyan Beyond God.

Unless you have any proof whatsoever from the manga only that Goku can use "Saiyan Beyond God" and "Super Saiyan 3" simultaneously?

 

[Veronica]

So then this disproves the anime and manga being interconnected to one another as it was claimed above, thank you for sharing this.

That proofs SBG has been abandoned.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

That proofs SBG has been abandoned.

So basically you're saying that Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing in the anime? Nice to know it makes the arguments made earlier now completely meaningless and reinforces the sentiment that the anime and manga are separate continuities.

Thus any discussion of the anime being affected by this CRT is to be discarded and the manga stuff will be the only relevant part

 

[Veronica]

So basically you're saying that Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing in the anime? Nice to know it makes the arguments made earlier now completely meaningless and reinforces the sentiment that the anime and manga are separate continuities.

Thus any discussion of the anime being affected by this CRT is to be discarded and the manga stuff will be the only relevant part

It was in the anime and in the manga RoF arc. The manga refers to the RoF movie where SBG exists. Yet it shows SSJ1-3 in the U6 arc, thus abandoning it as a concept. It went with SSG and SSB just being a multipliers on top of base form and SSB being on top of SSG transformation same goes for the anime.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

It was in the anime and in the manga RoF arc. The manga refers to the RoF movie where SBG exists. Yet it shows SSJ1-3 in the U6 contradicting it and it went with SSG and SSB just being a multipliers on top of base form same for the anime.

Has it EVER come into your mind that Goku didn't absorb the form as a whole, but instead absorbed the strength of his FIRST usage of Super Saiyan God by the end of Battle of Gods and just made it his new base form? That's why wording arguments is extremely important because it causes misconceptions like this to spring up.

Like it's clear in the anime that Goku was able to remember the strength of that first usage and made that into his new base form, where he then can stack Ssj 1-3 on top of it and then the other forms he has in the story. Now the manga obviously is a different story, but the anime is crystal clear in that regard, and it's why Super Saiyan God can exist because all Goku did was absorbed the initial power from BOG and not the form as a whole.

 

[Damage3245]

@Veronica Please drop all further discussion of the anime, it's derailing this thread.

 

[Veronica]

@Veronica Please drop all further discussion of the anime, it's derailing this thread.

I also made the same argument against the manga.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

@Damage3245 I apologize if I'm assisting in clogging up the CRT with a discussion that has nothing to do with it, I'm going to stop myself and not engage with it anymore.

Now on topic: Does this downgrade affect the current scaling chain of the 2-C's in the manga? Because some of the 2-C's that will get downgraded are a part of that chain IIRC so I had to ask if things would need to be reworked

 

[Veronica]

You didn't add to me disagree. I agree with the downgrade but not for the reason why

 

[Damage3245]

You didn't add to me disagree. I agree with the downgrade but not for the reason why

... Wouldn't that make you neutral instead? If you agree and disagree?

 

[Veronica]

... Wouldn't that make you neutral instead? If you agree and disagree?

Do neutral than

 

[TiltedFN]

As has been mentioned before, post-Zamasu heal Goku Black would start the chain of characters being 2-C anyway, as SSJ Goku Black clapped SSB Vegeta and would be 50x his base.

In addition, I'm not entirely convinced of some of the evidence, given that SSG being vastly above SSJ3 doesn't really prove anything on its own. Even a 2x gap can canonically result in a stomp in Dragon Ball, so a good chunk of this evidence really doesn't hold up when taking that into account.

The Resurrection F point, which seems to be the largest crux of this argument, doesn't exactly hold up either. If your interpretation was the case, why would Super Saiyan God ever come back as an actually used form? Since, in that case, it would not actually provide any boost. The whole "god-like Saiyan" thing, just like in the anime, is a matter of having that level of power and then being able to go beyond that. Given that this promotional material also very strongly follows the movie and anime versions of the arc, their base forms being 2-C would make the most logical sense.

I was initially going to be neutral, but having typed all this, I actually talked myself into another stance. I disagree with the OP

I'm with clover, I think they can just reach that level of power in their base forms, then in their super saiyan forms, they can actually use this god ki and make a new transformation, which is known as ssjb. Hence the, "god like power".

 

[Veronica]

I'm with clover, I think they can just reach that level of power in their base forms like its shown for the anime and movie, then in their super saiyan forms, they can actually use this god ki and make a new transformation, which is known as ssjb. Hence the, "god like power".

That's SBG which doesn't exist in the manga anymore and "god-like power" refers to their base form with SSG levels of power.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I agree with OP. In my head, tapping into (x) always meant you can gain some of it's power without changing form. And added to the fact that in the ROF manga, after failing to fight alongside Vegeta previously, Goku explicitly powers up in the page before and the translations having Whis say something like "So close" "My my" or "Much better"

 

[Golden_Void]

SBG isn't a thing, but I agree otherwise.

 

[RedReaper616]

I'd consider it pretty relevant because if Saiyan Beyond God is just them using the power of Super Saiyan God in their base forms, and Goku's Super Saiyan God is stronger than his Super Saiyan 3, then that proves that Goku when he is using Super Saiyan 3 or lower Super Saiyan states is weaker than when he is using Saiyan Beyond God.

Isn’t this circular? Saiyan Beyond God is weaker than SSG, as we see in series, (because they need SSG for an even greater amp against Hit, Black, or Broly) but you’re looping SSG around to be the baseline from which SBG needs to be judged.

Or to be more precise, according to you: SSG proves Saiyan Beyond God, thus Saiyan Beyond God proves SSG. Continue ad Infinitum as the arcs progress and they show a continuous difference in SSG and Base/“Saiyan Beyond God,” power.

Unless you have any proof whatsoever from the manga only that Goku can use "Saiyan Beyond God" and "Super Saiyan 3" simultaneously?

How would you prove that, visually? There’s no physiological difference in SBG and Base Form. It’s why the fact Goku absorbed it into his base/is SBG is considered how it is currently and why you’re trying to change it. Especially when you consider, again, it’s not a form. It’s a state of being/the consequence of becoming SSG on your energy, at best, that has no name or needs to no name in series. Goku can not and will never “And this is Saiyan Beyond God…,” even in a given moment when he’s objectively using the form, to let us—The audience—Know because it’s literally not something they can do that with.

But if we were to try and prove a certifiable moment in which Goku and Vegeta are using SBG, (not applying a normal SSJ form on top, because that’d genuinely be impossible, due the fact there’d be no SSG tells), as just their stereotypical base form, it’d have to be the spar between Goku and Vegeta in U6VU7. Vegeta clearly has the Crimson Radiance-Aura associated with SSG, and Goku is able to survive a blow from SSB Vegeta. But even that is incredibly iffy, because those are just minute details we’re trying to get out of their visual tells.

 

[Damage3245]

How would you prove that, visually? There’s no physiological difference in SBG and Base Form. It’s why the fact Goku absorbed it into his base/is SBG is considered how it is currently and why you’re trying to change it. Especially when you consider, again, it’s not a form. It’s a state of being/the consequence of becoming SSG on your energy, at best, that has no name or needs to no name in series. Goku can not and will never “And this is Saiyan Beyond God…,” even in a given moment when he’s objectively using the form, to let us—The audience—Know because it’s literally not something they can do that with.

It's okay to just admit that you don't have proof for a certain thing.

If you're admitting that there is no way of objectively proving that they are using "Saiyan Beyond God" any time they are using regular Super Saiyan forms, then I feel confident in my interpretation of the statement given to us that a Saiyan using "Saiyan Beyond God" turning Super Saiyan will result in a Super Saiyan Blue.