Because he is? Why would Vegeta waste his SSB when he could have beaten black in SSG before he went into the ROSAT?
Because Vegeta literally got that strong, as that is the most logical reason? Pre ROSAT, ssj black was definitely stronger than SSG vegeta, I mean, why would you argue otherwise?
Literally, we saw SSJ Black punching Pre-ROSAT SSB Vegeta so hard that he spat out blood, and at that point Vegeta was fighting with the intention of killing Black
He only lied about using 80% of his power. The statement I refer to when Goku drops out of SSJ and him regretting it. So Beerus was lying regretting it and wanting to keep it a secret? No, if you stack SSB, Kaioken and all the power increase, zenkais and MUI top of it. In my opinion MUI is 100x SSB and SSB is 50x SSG and ToP SSG Goku is far more powerful than BoG SSG. Lets assume Goku got only 10x stronger from BoG to ToP. So ToP MUI Goku would 50,000x stronger than BoG SSG as opposed to 1,000,000,000x with SSJ1-3, SSG, SSB and MUI stacking on top of base SSG. 50,000x makes far sense with the statement.
It doesn't matter as Vegeta training didn't increase his power and again in the U6 power. Vegeta used less than 1/10 of SSB power and we don't know how much weaker than 1/10 he was. But even if you say that. It gets contradicted in the following arcs as mentioned by Damage.
I agree with this take above regarding when 2-C scaling should start and that their may be more ToP characters in the scaling chain as a result of this.
Pre-ROSAT SSB Vegeta was struggling against Post-First Zamasu Heal SSJ Black, and the latter grew even stronger after Zamasu was healing him a second time and unlocking SSR, overpowering SSB Vegeta even harder. Post-ROSAT SSG Vegeta was able to easily keep up with SSR Black's movements and react to his attacks fast enough to switch to SSB to blitz and overpower Black. Vegeta clearly grew in power, you are batlanty ignoring what was shown in the manga just because you don't believe the Post-Black Saga characters being 2-C in Base Forms for whatever reason
All of that is about power utilizing like Jiren. That's why SSR Black was shocked about SSB Vegeta power and yet he was supposedly stronger than SSG in SSR. If that were the case, he would one shot SSB Vegeta even after the training. Unless you think Vegeta got over a thousand times stronger, which is never implied and contradicted by Goku going SSB against Toppo and than being called "rivals a GoD". Yet nothing about rivals a GoD in base or SSJ1-3 when he fought Toppo. Why because it's simply all about how you utilize SSB not about becoming thousands of times stronger.
As I said before, the Base Forms inevitably become 2-C at some point, if it is not during the second half of the Black Saga, then it is during the Universe Survival Saga, if it is not during the Tournament of Power, then it is during the Super Hero Saga
I known and agree with that, I was just saying which Sagas in the manga it became explicit that the Base Forms become 2-C
I agree they definitely become it at some point, but I don't think it can be prior to the Tournament of Power because of the Goku vs. Toppo fight.
Low 2-C? You mean 2-C for the base forms right, or am I confused
Sorry, I meant 2-C.
Dende stating "Goku reached god level" is most likely a reference to UI, since at that point UI Goku isn't leagues below Beerus and them not getting massively stronger anymore. So I don't base Goku reach BoG SSG Goku level at any point. Also we have Piccolo saying "SSB Goku is far stronger than he was previously". If base Goku is on or surpassed SSG, surely we would have a similar statement like Piccolo, I think.
Considering Goku and Vegeta are comparable to each other when they're both extremely tired out in Base in the ToP, bare minimum there. Likely before then, since usually Goku and Vegeta are directly comparable to each other as SSBs before each arc. Especially since PSSB Goku exists in Black's Arc and Vegeta had to catch up and get PSSB himself in between then. Vegeta even claimed he was the stronger of the two due to Goku's mastery of SSB.
But Goku didn't train and Goku is equal when he uses SSB at full power. Again showing it was about how SSB was used like the U6 Tournament and the manga states several times they don't get massively stronger.
True. There could be a way that we end up balancing both interpretations; such as Vegeta's God/SSB forms in the Future Trunks Saga got a boost, but both Goku's and Vegeta's base forms don't get an increase until at least the Tournament of Power or later in order to be consistent with the Toppo fight.
SSB in the Tournament only occurred like that due to transforming in and out, and due to the fact it loses max power quickly.
The fact that SSJ God does come back as a regularly used form supports my point; it shows that God power is never something permanently used as an amp to their base and is still a relevant power that they can use.
If they were permanently using "God-like Saiyan" as their base, then they would never use their normal Super Saiyan forms, since the promo mateiral you're referring to states that a "God-like Saiyan" using Super Saiyan would go Super Saiyan Blue.
It should also be noted that when Trunks went SSJ2 at the start of the fight, Goku DID commend him on having significantly increased his power. Which you could interpret being the commendation on reaching cosmic strength that Damage felt was lacking. I just wanted to point it out as I scroll through the Manga for scans.
The only comparison Goku gives is that he exceeded Gohan's strength back in the Cell arc; which is not any kind of comparison close to reaching Super Saiyan God level.
Yes, Vegeta ate a Senzu Bean and fought SSJ Black again at full power, but I think it's a Inconsistenty, because Goku explains it as "Vegeta storing SSB and letting it explode when needed". If he could easily said "Vegeta got massively stronger" which doesn't make sense as he needs to switch from SSG to SSB. Why would he train to get stronger than rely on a weaker form? Also Goku black noticed no difference in Vegeta and Vegeta didn't disagree. Than he goes SSG saying "I need this form to defeat you" as a reference to what Goku did during the U6 arc. To me the whole SSJ Black vs SSB Vegeta exchange is Akira Toriyama being messy.
Also, I don't know how this would work? The SSG and SSB forms are amplifications of the Base Form still, despite their Divine Nature. They don't grow separately from their base states.
Well, we've seen that the usage of Blue can vary as Vegeta's usage of it in the Universe 6 Saga was weaker than normal despite his base form not being any weaker than normal. And Goku mastering Super Saiyan Blue's output allowed him to amplify Super Saiyan Blue's power without increasing his base form either.
Not necessarily. The anime also brought back SSG and that's evidently not th case, since the anime has the direct statement of Goku absorbing that power into his base form.
Again, that's not necessarily the case anymore. Even in the anime, that's not the case anymore as Goku can still use that level of power and go into lower Super Saiyan forms.
This.
Is an entirely separate fight to this. Vegeta only gets that explanation when he goes into the RoSaT, so there's no mechanism for which Vegeta was getting beat back in their first fight except raw stats.
The problem with this is Vegeta literally REQUIRES a power boost to pull this manuever off. His SSG form has to be enhanced enough to where he can REACT to SSR Black. His SSB form has to be enhanced enough for him to DAMAGE SSR Black. And full power SSB Vegeta struggled against SSJ Black Pre-Second Zenkai. After his Zenkai, Black grows EVEN FURTHER as a mere SSJ, and then applies SSR on himself to get even stronger. There's no conceivable way for Vegeta's strategy to work without a DECENT power amp to make the actual reacting and damage he's inflicting work...at ALL.
Black never said that. He even says Vegeta got faster. And acknowledges that Vegeta's outputting abnormal strength. This is in the midst of the fact Vegeta is just using normal SSB for each of these movements in flickers. (Unknown to the audience). So Vegeta DID increase in power.
Anime being inconsistent as hell doesn't interest me; this is for manga only.
Same for the movie. As I pointed out, the events in the manga are very different to the movie and anime.
It is definitely the case according to the scan we use on the profiles. And again, who cares about the anime? It's not relevant here.
Only way that can make sense is if the Gammas were heavily suppressing themselves as the difference between base Gohan and Ultimate Gohan should not be tiny, and Ultimate Gohan is on par with the Gammas. From what i recall, SSJ Gohan stood no chance of beating Gamma 1. Also not really a concern of thise thread either way.
The gammas were sandbagging at the start tho, Gohan needed ultimate to fight on par with gamma 1, and gamma 2 was wiping the floor with boosted piccolo until he unveiled his new form
I care, because you're presenting things that would be problems for every form of DBS, not just the manga. So, I'm explaining how they wouldn't be problems. The idea that a god-like Saiyan has to go SSB isn't exactly true, clearly. And the anime and manga follow the same general script.
Objectively speaking, base forms should be 2-C in the Goku Black Arc, yes. But, the arguments against it being that way earlier don't hold up to me. Simple as that.
This is perfectly explained by the anime just being inconsistent and/or badly written. If the anime has its own internally inconsistent issues, then that doesn't affect a thread focused on just the manga.
I understand
