- 1,967
- 1,664
absurd according to who or what? Incredulity isnt an argument Veronica
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
- Status
- 3,301
- 2,113
iicr there was actually a statement about them no longer receiving zenkais at some point, might have to re-check
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #163
I'm trying to find the solution that has the greatest internal consistency.
In your version Vegeta trains for six months in the Time Chamber and his base form becomes infinitely stronger - going from Solar System level to Low Multiverse level (with his Blue form getting a proportionally equal boost).
Whereas Goku spends half a day learning the Mafuba... and also becomes exactly as strong?
The narrative of how Vegeta is able to fight Goku Black doesn't make as much sense in this version; if it was a question of Vegeta just become so overwhelmingly strong that his base form is now as strong as his earlier Super Saiyan God.... why didn't Goku Black sense this?
- 1,092
- 198
Especially since nobody remarked about the supposedly massive power boost. According to this Vegeta can train again and get another 200,000x boost on top of base. Ignoring the many statements, that they don't get much stronger or being at their limit, only SSG/SSB was called to rival a GoD, it being about switching SSG to SSB quickly and other problems.
- 1,967
- 1,664
zenkai is only half the justification of their reactive power level
- 1,967
- 1,664
nothing wrong with that
could've just been a result of his previous battle, as I said, reactive power level. Im not sure why this being made more complicated than it has to be. Just because Goku didnt undergo the same training regimen as Vegeta did here doesn't negate Vegeta's gain or Goku's performance later on
really now? We've had characters with power levels in the millions suppressing it down to 10 back in Z yet this is an issue?
- 1,967
- 1,664
proves nothing. Not everything needs to be explicitly mentioned or spoonfed to readers. If we can see their performance thats better proof than any verbal confirmation
I didnt say that but if thats how you wanna take it go ahead
for one many of those statements are complete bullshit, they've gotten far stronger since those statements were made so clearly they really dont mean anything (unless you think current base goku/vegeta in the manga are hardly stronger than their future trunks saga counterparts). SSG/SSB being stated to rival gods doesnt mean anything this is true for the anime as well yet WE KNOW that even base Goku in the anime is 2-C
- 1,092
- 198
When a character gets more powerful we get direct statements such as: Goku saying "Trunks you are stronger", Piccolo saying "SSB Goku got far stronger", Goku saying "Buu seems stronger", Goku during training with Vegeta "You got stronger" and many more and none of them come close to the 200,000x boost in power. Yet nothing about it.
GoD statement was after Future Trunks Saga and the limit is again brought up in Super Hero arc and that Jiren isn't much stronger than them, showing again there is no need for big boost assumptios. Anime base Goku was 2-C in RoF arc, but SBG got abandoned in the U6 arc.
- 1,967
- 1,664
Are you honestly suggesting that Vegeta training for half a year inside the time chamber AND demonstrating his gains in the actual fights is all rendered null and void because someone didnt say "oh shit he got 200,000X stronger!!"? if that's your standard of evidence then you aren't even worth my time debating
Jiren has nothing to do with this he was explicitly stronger than their god forms just in his suppressed state alone and once again that "limit" means nothing unless you admit that what you're saying is that they dont get much strong which, if true, would literally mean they havent grown an inch since the future trunks saga beyond gaining new final forms so good luck proving that
There's no assumption here. we see a character perform well in a fight, they get the warranted rating that's all there is to it. Anime Goku being 2-C isnt even remotely questionable here (to anyone other than you at least) so dont think you can use that as support evidence to prove that the statements of SSG/SSB being god level in the manga means anything. Like i said these power ups are called the same in the anime as well despite being in the same tier as their base forms (pre-TOP anyway)
- 1,092
- 198
My point is a far less power boost gets noticed by various characters. Yet, something of that magnitude everyone is silent about it. Because it was never a power boost
The Saiyans do get stronger, marginally not the hundreds of thousands of times nonsense. That's what all the statement I showed now show me one that says or implies "Goku just in normal state surpassed the power of SSG!". It's always about small boosts, somehow never about boosts on that level.
The same statement is also in the anime. I agree anime base Goku was 2-C in RoF. That's when he had SSG power in base and SSB as SSJ like the RoF movie.
I'm just telling what the series shows.
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #171
@OculoOmnibus That kind of comment is really not helpful.
- 2,627
- 3,060
It does. Toriyama says that the strength of a given SSG relies on their pre-existing power level. Thus, there IS a required downscaling from SSG. It's just unquantifiable.
- 4,802
- 2,529
I was trying to say that SSG multipliers the power and speed equally, unlike the SSJ Grade 3 that just boost strength, my argument was trying to say that Post-ROSAT SSG Vegeta >= Post-Second Zamasu Heal SSR Black in both speed and power since Vegeta could easily react to his attacks, english is not my native language so what I was saying likely went wrong on my previously comment
Last edited:
- 1,967
- 1,664
it was and you cant run away from the fact unless you explain why Vegeta trained half a year and how he was managing to do far better against Black if it didnt budge his power an inch (which is really what your statements imply)
complete arbitrary amount you pulled out of your rear and the fights in the manga disprove this anyway
Oh I'll do you one better i'll show you an entire fight that proves my point. Look at the fight between goku and vegeta vs Black post-ROSAT training. If that isnt acceptable evidence to you because it doesnt mention a 200,000X gain then your entire basis for denial is sheer incredulity, you're just stonewalling and Im pretty sure this is against the rules
not "was", he always has been 2-C since BoG and despite that the SSG/SSB power-ups get called "Godly" even before the ToP. this suggests that the similar manga statements made about these forms being godly power-ups is just alluding to the fact that they utilize god ki which the base and normal SSJ forms do not, not about their power output apparently jumping from 4-B to 2-C
No you're completely ignoring an entire fight in the series simply because it doesnt meet the perfect and conveniently arbitrary standard for statements that you set up which no one but you tries to peddle.
- 2,627
- 3,060
Oh. Well, yeah. Goku even says it’s a "well balanced form." Though in that context he was also referring to it's energy cost. Also, it was my mistake, not yours. It's all good!
- 2,627
- 3,060
It doesn't make sense in either version, really, going by your logic. Black himself grows an infinite amount from a single Zenkai Boost. Simiarly, Goku and Vegeta, despite losing the ability to Zenkai Boost, have to grow an infinite amount in the ToP to do what they did in their base forms together against Jiren if you say the power boost doesn't happen by Black's Arc. No matter what, Goku and Vegeta grow an infinite amount in base in the Manga, either by Broly, Moro, Granolah, or Superhero, and at no point does a character say "You grew infinitely!"
Because why would they?
Really, further thinking on your post, this feels like a problem not with the source material, but the Wiki.
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #177
I admit, it's a tricky situation. I don't have a perfect solution but I don't think the proposal that Vegeta just levelled himself up that high is correct going by the events in the manga.
When Vegeta returns for his rematch against Goku Black, Goku Black says that Vegeta doesn't look any different since their first match. He wonders if Vegeta might have some new transformation.
After Vegeta transforms into Super Saiyan God, Goku Black is taken aback - not because Vegeta is now overwhelmingly stronger... but because he intends to fight Goku Black while appearing so weak.
When Vegeta succeeeds in pushing Goku Black back with his attacks, Goku Black still can't figure out how Vegeta can be outputting so much power while appearing so weak.
The explanation from Goku on how Vegeta is able to keep up with Goku Black is that Vegeta is insta-transforming and capitalizing on Super Saiyan Blue's immense power for short bursts to avoid the stamina drain issue. Goku says that it is the results of Vegeta's hard training that mean he doesn't lose power now when using Super Saiyan Blue in this way.
The stamina drain issue is really serious in the manga; even though Vegeta just transformed for a short while against Cabba to one-shot him, when facing against Hit he was at less than 10th of his usual strength.
Goku with the imperfect Super Saiyan Blue (and low on stamina from the Mafuba) is noticeably inferior to God Zamasu - but by removing Super Saiyan Blue's weakness he is able to close the gap and fight equally with him.
So while on face value I could see the interpretation being "Vegeta just trained so hard that his God form is equal to Super Saiyan Rose."... my interpretation of the manga is that Super Saiyan God Vegeta is still far inferior to Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black and the result of his training is the instant-switching technique which allows him to use Super Saiyan Blue more effectively. In his earlier fights against Goku Black, Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue just lost power too quickly.
- 7,887
- 14,932
The scan of Goku explaining this directly should, in my opinion, settle the issue completely. You're right about this.
- 1,092
- 198
Agreed, I don't know where their "possible" nonsense interpretation comes from. Power increase is never mentioned as a reason.
- 1,663
- 1,292
Really? The scan showing SSG dodging, then going TO SSB, attacking and then going back to SSG, proves that SSG Vegeta couldn't react to SSR black? The scan also showing that Vegeta only goes to blue when he throws an attack not when he reacts and dodges SSR?
In what world does that scan prove hok right?
I'd advise you to drop this attitude
- 2,627
- 3,060
While this is all true, it's also undeniable that Vegeta grew. As covered earlier in the thread, Vegeta is dodging solely with Super Saiyan God. And this is actively commented on by Black-SSG Vegeta is just straight up faster than what he last saw from Vegeta (which was Full Power SSB, mind you). Which makes sense. Because as seen later, if you're not capable of reacting to the threat to utilize your burst attack, it's meaningless. Which is why Vegeta HAS to forego his strategy and JUST use Blue. However, KEEP THIS IN MIND for later.
There is nothing wrong here, but I want you to keep this in mind for when we get to the NEXT PORTION.
While this is TRUE, this does NOT apply to the fight Black had with Vegeta. Vegeta's strength was FULLY RESTORED by a Senzu Bean. He is NOT drained against Black. He is at FULL POWER. And DESPITE THIS he CANNOT beat Post-Zenkai 1 Black. In FACT, he is his INFERIOR. Which means, for your logic to hold true, Black must've either 1) NOT grown in power or 2) Senzu Beans MAGICALLY stopped working. (Both of which are not true.) This is ESPECIALLY important, because since we know, OBJECTIVELY, that a Full Power SSB is inferior to this version of Black, swapping like Vegeta did here would NOT have worked. After all, your SSB state HAS to be effective to BEGIN WITH to actually MATTER. Mind you, this is also despite the fact that Black gets ANOTHER Zenkai, (placing him FURTHER ahead of Full Power SSB Vegeta), and then TRANSFORMS. (Meaning a SSB level multiplier should be considered for gauging the difference between Vegeta and Black). Past this point, Vegeta's stamina should be completely spent as a SSB, (as SSB loses power from it's max QUITE QUICKLY) meaning he's massively weaker than he would be at max, but just for clarity the next time we see them fighting this is upheld, as Vegeta is getting utterly thrashed. So the power jump is NECESSARILY the case. There IS no valid objection to this. It happened.
PSSB Goku against Zamasu was winning due to a variation of factors. For one, Goku was not tired against Zamasu. He was restored by Trunks. Even Goku's blood and whatnot from his totally healed injuries are gone, and Goku comments he has been put back to normal. "Really fixed me up." Secondly, in the midst of the fight Goku was not letting him regenerate, nor was Zamasu really focusing on it (outside of one key moment) which Vegeta outright says affects Zamasu's output. While they still fought evenly at first-That can't be denied-It must be said that Goku only lasted as long as he did because of these specific factors.
I don't think anyone here is saying SSG Vegeta > SSR Black. But what we ARE saying is SSG and SSB Vegeta HAD to increase in power to combat the gap that DEFINITIVELY EXISTED between them, and that gap was by definition an infinite amount.
Last edited:
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #182
I don't have an issue with Vegeta's SSG and SSB having grown - I have an issue with backscaling that back to Vegeta's base / non-God forms. (And by extension, to Goku's base and non-God forms).
There's no denying that the emphasis of the fight is in Vegeta's mastery of utilizing Super Saiyan Blue this way being the results of his hard training - not his base stats increasing manyfold.
At least in the Tournament of Power we can point to Goku and Vegeta having been shown to improve in their base forms.
- 2,627
- 3,060
I mean, the problem lies in Black himself. By becoming Full Power SSB level as a mere SSJ, he literally becomes 2-C. Then he goes SSB but pink (which is the cosmic power jump that CAUSES 2-C). Vegeta by definition has to get a whole infinity stronger to make his SSB > SSR, switching mechanic or not.
- 1,663
- 1,292
The only alternative to not agreeing that their base backscales is claiming that Vegeta's SSG now has a higher multiplier (essentially another infinite one) to close the 2C gap created by black going SSR while the base remained the same
I don't have to say how outrageous an assumption that would be
I don't have to say how outrageous an assumption that would be
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #185
Yeah - Goku Black is a pretty problematic issue with this. He goes through numerous Zenkais with Future Trunks to gradually level himself up... then he gets one Zenkai off his fight with Vegeta and he becomes infinitely stronger? Makes little sense.
You acknowledge that we need to address Goku and Vegeta being 2-C in base at some point throughout the series... What if we did just rate them as that at the point where we actually see them at that level in the Tournament of Power?
- 1,663
- 1,292
Do you have a site here you read the colored version?
I mean, this is the same manga that had 17 have an infinite amount by fighting poachers
- 2,627
- 3,060
Well, to be quite frank, Black does say his cells becoming his to control is the Key Factor. This implies he was facing diminshing returns against Trunks. Even though they were both Zenkai'ing off the battles, he was growing MUCH more (we know this because Black was consistently winning and sparing Trunks), so he wasn't taking enough damage to simulate a large power jump. This fits in line with Trunks having not seen SSJ for "ages," implying that off of one Zenkai alone at some point he made a whole transformation gap level of power and then relied only on his base form to force his own growth.
- 2,627
- 3,060
MangaSee.
Yeah. Which also creates problems, because I'm pretty sure Goku exceeds 17 in weaker forms at some point too.
Also this.
Goku Black jumps infinitely as a SSJ, and then SSR is an infinite jump. Actually, it's an infinite jump (SSG) times 50. Or whatever number you want to put in.
Vegeta either jumps infinitely multiple times, or somehow his SSG form just changes in mechanism (which is never implied whatsoever.)
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #189
@RedReaper I don't want to be obstinate on this - I can acknowledge you brought up a lot of good points. How about this as a compromise solution?
For the second half of the Future Trunks Saga, we rate Vegeta's base as being "Likely 2-C" due to not having exact confirmation that he's grown that strong but it can be inferred. We don't mention it for Goku whose own display of power increase is explicitly just him mastering SSB.
And then we rate both of them as being solidly 2-C in base by the end of the Tournament of Power which his showcased by how well they were able to fight Jiren.
For the second half of the Future Trunks Saga, we rate Vegeta's base as being "Likely 2-C" due to not having exact confirmation that he's grown that strong but it can be inferred. We don't mention it for Goku whose own display of power increase is explicitly just him mastering SSB.
And then we rate both of them as being solidly 2-C in base by the end of the Tournament of Power which his showcased by how well they were able to fight Jiren.
- 2,627
- 3,060
I think this is reasonable, if the thread goes through with totally axing enhanced base forms for the Manga at BoG (which there have been mixed opinions on in general). Though, I will say for Goku not giving him the likely status too is weird, just to look at (since Goku is ultimately Vegeta's strength superior this arc as CSSB), and because Goku requires proportional physical strength to trap Zamasu, and is told this. Then, to prep for the Sealing, he goes all the way to SSB. Which implies that Goku believed he needed AT LEAST SSB to get the job done. (Which is just absurd, because earlier it's quite explicitly said he was weaker than Goku, Vegeta, and Black.) Though, unlike the Anime, it seems that Zamasu isn't relegated to just SSJ2 Trunks Level and instead just "weaker than Black."
That was a long way of saying yes, it's just weird to agree to/think on because of how inconsistent this all is.
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #191
To be fair it doesn't say that it needs the user to be as strong as the target for it to work; just that it demands a lot of physical strength. Goku probably just wanted to ensure that he'd 100% be able to seal him by bringing out as much strength as he could muster.
Zamasu is also stated to be much weaker than Trunks in the manga.
- 1,092
- 198
Base Goku and Vegete able to "fight" Jiren doesn't warrant 2-C as they were fighting a fatigued Jiren, who is stated to be significantly weakened:
Last edited:
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #193
He was significantly weakened - true - but even a fatigued Jiren can deflect a charged attack from final form Frieza and survive a full-body blow from Golden Frieza.
- 1,092
- 198
Now you are implying base Goku and Vegeta can now suddenly engage with Golden or Final Form Frieza. While Jiren got knocked out by Golden Frieza in one hit. Also Jiren being able to survive it is because killing isn't allowed. Lastly Goku stated himself that he has no strength left so you have to argue that a heavily weakened base Goku is now enraged Final Form Frieza Ki attack level and this Final Form Frieza is below SSG level so the attack isn't 2-C. I can easily see ToP SSJ3 Goku deflecting that attack from a heavily weakened Frieza.
I think maybe only in the Super Hero arc is where they reached 2-C power in SSJ1-3
Last edited:
- 2,627
- 3,060
I mean, even if you want to say that, (and I don't agree with that evaluation at all), Goku and Vegeta unquestionably (1) changed (2) / warped (3) the (4) coloration (5) of (6) the (7) entire (8) World (9) of (10) Void (11) in (12) their (13) Base (14) Forms (15) via (16) the (17) GBF (18) and (19) KHH (20). This affected the whole thing, and was permanent for the rest of the ToP. I'm pretty sure, due to the WoV's nature, that counts for quite a lot.
- 31,397
- 27,687
- Thread starter
- #196
I don't agree with Veronica's assessment either.
I'll proceed with writing up new justifications here for the affected profiles and call back staff members to evaluate them once they're done.
I'll proceed with writing up new justifications here for the affected profiles and call back staff members to evaluate them once they're done.
- 1,092
- 198
That's not an AP feat. Changing the color of an unknown size void can't be used
- 1,092
- 198
That's terrible reasoning. So whoever fights Jiren is now 2-C. So if Krillin fights and damages a half-dead Jiren on his deathbed that grants him 2-C power, because Jiren always operates at 2-C level of power, duh. It isn't like Jiren could be weakened to solar-system level. Like how Beerus one shots characters with solar-system AP. Now you have to argue whoever survives a hit from Beerus is now 2-C, so 2-C Bulma now? Because she survived a slap from Beerus in the anime granting her Low-Multiversal durability. Also enraged Vegeta damaged and pushed back Beerus, so 2-C pre-god amp enraged SSJ2 Vegeta?
Last edited:
- 2,627
- 3,060
Huh-No? When did anyone suggest this?
EDIT:
We consider the cosmologies to be the same across continuities, I think, including WoV.
Last edited:
- 1,092
- 198
Because according to Damage, an extremely weakened Jiren is 2-C. Yet, there is no evidence for that. While we know a casual Beerus is far below 2-C, look at his fight against enraged SSJ2 Vegeta, he wasn't hitting Vegeta with 2-C AP and Vegeta performances against Beerus is actually far better than he did against Jiren. Still a very weakened Jiren is somehow far above casual Beerus.
Last edited:
- Status
