Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade

[Veronica]

SBG isn't a thing, but I agree otherwise.

It was in the RoF movie/manga and anime

 

[Veronica]

It's okay to just admit that you don't have proof for a certain thing.

If you're admitting that there is no way of objectively proving that they are using "Saiyan Beyond God" any time they are using regular Super Saiyan forms, then I feel confident in my interpretation of the statement given to us that a Saiyan using "Saiyan Beyond God" turning Super Saiyan will result in a Super Saiyan Blue.

SBG with SSJ3 would be SSB3

 

[Damage3245]

But if we were to try and prove a certifiable moment in which Goku and Vegeta are using SBG, (not applying a normal SSJ form on top, because that’d genuinely be impossible, due the fact there’d be no SSG tells), as just their stereotypical base form, it’d have to be the spar between Goku and Vegeta in U6VU7. Vegeta clearly has the Crimson Radiance-Aura associated with SSG, and Goku is able to survive a blow from SSB Vegeta. But even that is incredibly iffy, because those are just minute details we’re trying to get out of their visual tells.

I will note too that if we consider this as being a case of them using Saiyan Beyond God.... then this further proves my point. Vegeta does not regularly have a red aura in base form; so he doesn't use "Saiyan Beyond God" as his permanent base form, hence his base doesn't permanently get boosted to 2-C from the moment he unlocks SSG which is what I've been arguing for.

 

[RedReaper616]

It's okay to just admit that you don't have proof for a certain thing.

If you're admitting that there is no way of objectively proving that they are using "Saiyan Beyond God" any time they are using regular Super Saiyan forms, then I feel confident in my interpretation of the statement given to us that a Saiyan using "Saiyan Beyond God" turning Super Saiyan will result in a Super Saiyan Blue.

Damage. That’s what I’m pointing out. There’s no evidence on either side. You argument solely hinges on the incredulity of how the characters are using the power of SSG in base as SBG, how that power relates to SSG, how they power up to SSB, and how they have normal SSJ forms despite this. Which is literally why the people brought up the Anime, and Films, because the situations are identical, and we know that Toriyama’s overall intent in the arc, as seen in film, anime, and interview that Goku’s base power was risen by his experience. While it did not occur in the Manga, we know this is his vision.

That said, it still didn’t occur in the Manga verbatim, so it is what it is, (and we know Goku wasn’t intended to turn SSG again), but I do think you’re utilizing incredulity to the circumstances as presented to stretch an argument. Especially when, as covered, what made your argument initially solid (supportive points), were—When scrutinized—Very meaningless or vague statements that don’t prove or deny your stance.

Edit: To use this this comment’s logic against you, though I do know how the burden of proof works: Prove, through solely the Manga, that you cannot use your SSJ forms on top of Saiyan Beyond God like we literally see occur in the other two continuities. Similarly, you cannot. Would my logic be bolstered by your inability, when inability exists on both sides? I don’t think so.

So I again point out—Isn’t your logic circular?

 

[Damage3245]

To use this this comment’s logic against you, though I do know how the burden of proof works: Prove, through solely the Manga, that you cannot use your SSJ forms on top of Saiyan Beyond God like we literally see occur in the other two continuities. Similarly, you cannot. Would my logic be bolstered by your inability, when inability exists on both sides? I don’t think so.

I've already provided the statement that if a Saiyan Beyond God uses Super Saiyan, then they turn Super Saiyan Blue. The source of that statement is Canon to the manga.

 

[Veronica]

You can't have SSG as a transformation and have SBG at the same time or separate. That's one flaw of Damage argument. Otherwise either one of them becomes useless, since both have the same purpose to create SSB.

 

[Raiden38]

Nah, not really. The title is somewhat of an exaggeration as only a few characters should be affected by this.

This primarily concerns the manga continuity of Dragon Ball Super and the current scaling chains we have for the characters that currently has it so that virtually everyone is scaling from Super Saiyan God Goku in the Beerus Saga.

To put it simply, our scaling for Goku currently looks a bit like this:

Spoiler: Current Scaling

My proposal is that it would end up looking like this:

Spoiler: Proposed Scaling

There are a few reasons why I believe this to be the better representation of the scaling chain, at least in the manga.

1) In the Beerus Saga, Goku fights a suppressed Beerus as a Super Saiyan God throughout their battle. He does not revert back to a ordinary Super Saiyan as he does in the anime/movie. As such there is no statement given that Goku has "absorbed Super Saiyan God's power as his own." He has no sudden power boost of being able to fight at the level of Super Saiyan God while in his base form or as an ordinary Super Saiyan.

2) In the promotional material for the Resurrection F film which we currently use on Goku's page, it says this:



What this means to me is what I've depicted above in the proposed scaling diagram.

If we go by what is said for the Resurrection F Saga then while Goku and Vegeta can tap into their god-like power, this is not their default base form. Moreover if they attempt to use Super Saiyan while as 'god-like Saiyans' then they will transform into Super Saiyan Blue.

This is supported by the partial manga adaptation of the Resurrection F Saga which depicts Goku sparring with Whis while an image of Super Saiyan God is overlaid in the background. What this implies is that when Goku is "gaining control of god-like power without changing form" he is effectively using Super Saiyan God without transforming. It's not a case of him simply permanently raising his base stats to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

3) As support for the above, when asked about how many transformations Goku has prior to the Tournament of Power, Whis answers that Goku has five transformations available; Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. No mention is made of him having a separate "Saiyan Beyond God" form so in order for this count to make sense, Goku's earlier usage of "God-like power" must be his Super Saiyan God form.

4) Some things appear to make more sense if we accept that when Goku is using ordinary Super Saiyan froms that he isn't tapping into "god-like power". When Future Trunks returns to the past and spars with Goku, his Super Saiyan 2 form is comparable to Goku's own Super Saiyan 2 form, with the only comment on his power level beind that he is "much better than Gohan [when Gohan first unlocked SSJ2]".

Then when Goku shifts up a level into Super Saiyan 3, Trunks also powers up with his Super Saiyan 2 Rage form which Vegeta confirms is comparable in power to Goku's Super Saiyan 3. However when Goku shifts into God form - implied to be Super Saiyan God - he instantly and literally stomps Trunks.

If Trunks had somehow risen in power to level of a Super Saiyan God on his own, that would be much more significant to comment on than him just being compared to SSJ2 and SSJ3. Why would Trunks' only be commented on as being way stronger than a SSJ2 Gohan if the actual level he was at was SSJ God?

Moreover, we see that just a few years before the events of the Future Trunks Saga where Trunks travels back in time, Trunks was comparable to Dabura who he defeated by unlocking Super Saiyan 2. With no strong enemies to fight against and no shortcut training, there is nothing implying Trunks could have elevated himself to the level of a Super Saiyan God by the time Goku Black begins his invasion of Earth. What we do see is that though Trunks has elevated his power by a somewhat more reasonable level in that time - up to the level of a Super Saiyan 3 as stated above - but that is all he has going for him.

5) Likewise Piccolo's battle with Frost in the Universe 6 Saga makes more sense as well. Goku is able to handle final form Frost with just his basic Super Saiyan form, only losing to a hidden weapon. Piccolo - who up to this point has not had any implications of undergoing massive training or other power boosts that could explain him suddenly reaching Super Saiyan God-levels of power is stated to have no chance against final form Frost and while he can keep up with him somewhat his aim is a battle of attrition. This revision would make Piccolo's sudden jump in power a lot less sudden as he would not be Super Saiyan God-level here, but only somewhat inferior to Goku as a regular Super Saiyan.

6) In Goku's battle with Toppo prior to the Tournament of Power, we get one of the clearest displays in my view that there is a huge difference in power between Goku as he is normally and Goku when he is tapping into "God-like power". He goes through his conventional forms of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 - however when he announces that he is going to use Super Saiyan God, he states that he'll be on at an "entirely different level". His power catches the attention of several Gods of Destruction and it is only at this point that it is commented on that the battle is "at the level of [the Gods of Destruction]". If base Goku was Low Multiverse level and capable of the same feats as the Gods of Destruction... this statement wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is only when he is explicitly using God power that he has reached the threshold of the Gods of Destruction. This should point to a clear division in power between Goku's earlier forms and his SSJ God and SSJ Blue forms.

7) This emphasis on the God forms being a substantial leap higher than the regular Super Saiyan forms is repeated in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga, where in Goku's sparring match with Merus, Goku shifts up from Super Saiyan 3 to his Super Saiyan God form and the resulting energy is powerful enough to damage the sparring chamber.

---

To summarize all of the above in a few brief points;

• Goku and Vegeta are not using "God-like power" all of the time because if they did then they would never use regular Super Saiyan forms. It is stated in the promotional material and shown in the Resurrection F Saga that if a Saiyan uses "God-like power" and goes Super Saiyan then they will use Super Saiyan Blue.
  • There are consistent narrative showings that Goku utilizing "God-like power" / activating Super Saiyan God is a massively higher level of power than otherwise.
• This means that there are instances we can see that the characters are not using "God-like power" as proven by the usage of their Super Saiyan states:
  • When Goku and Vegeta are fighting in the Universe 6 tournament, they are not using "God-like power" until they transform into Super Saiyan Blue. Goku's battle against Frost and Botamo does not feature "God-like power".
  • When Goku is sparring with Future Trunks, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God to overwhelm him.
  • When Goku is sparring with a suppressed Toppo, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue against full power Toppo.
  • When Goku is sparring with Merus, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God and destroys the sparring chamber.

Therefore the characters who do not face "God-like power" should not be scaling to the level of "Super Saiyan God" and should not be Low Multiverse level.

Characters affected by this:

• Son Goku
• Vegeta
• Cabba
• Botmato
• Auta Magetta
• Frost
• Piccolo
• Future Trunks
• Goku Black (Pre-Zamasu Heal)
• Zamasu

This naturally doesn't affect everyone. There are still those who fought against Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue, Goku and Vegeta and characters on their level, as such they keep their ratings.

Characters still at Super Saiyan God level and above:

• Hit
• Golden Frieza
• Goku Black (Post-Zamasu Heal) / Goku Black (SSJR)
• Fused Zamasu
• Toppo (Full Power)
• Jiren
• Kale (LSSJ)
• Kefla
• Son Gohan (Tournament of Power)
• Android 17
• Android 18
• Etc.

That's the proposal in a nutshell. I know that things won't be perfect here and there'll still be inevitable issues with scaling as is the case always with Dragon Ball but frankly our current scaling isn't perfect either. Right now we have to deal with the notion that virtually everyone in the series inexplicably become multiverse-destroyers in a very short span of time and oftentimes with little to no explanation. This revision doesn't completely erase that but it does mitigate the issues a bit and I don't mind if this only ends up being applied to the manga continuity.

---

Votes

Agree: Damage3245, Hasty12345, Greatsage13th, Ednaxel2, Maverick Zero X, Jaakor48, DarlingAurora, DarkDragonMedeus

Neutral: Vietthai96, ScalingRandomVerse, Killerdrone123, Veronica

Disagree: CloverDragon03, RenderGK

Agree

 

[Veronica]

Remember the mistake that both the anime and manga made by showing "SSB2"? It shows again SSB is a different lineage than regular SSJ1-3 as it wasn't obvious.

Unless you think SSB3>SSB2>SSB>SSG>SSJ3>SSJ2>SSJ>base with SSG power. Doesn't it make you wonder why SSB is described as someone with SSG power in base, going SSJ so a 50x multplier.

Yet, according to folks it's actually a 10,000,000x SSG. If you want to say it's actually 50x the SSG transformation. Than you have to say base isn't SSG since you can't have two SSG power and again you get the same lineage of multiplier but this time only in SSB1-3 lineage, creating SSB being 50x SSG transformation, SSB2 100x SSG and SSB3, 400x SSG. So it doesn't matter which lane you pick.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Remember the mistake that both the anime and manga made by showing "SSB2"?

What are you even talking about.
Why this rhetoric?

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree

 

[Therefir]

I think this makes sense.

 

[Therefir]

I disagree with this weird backscaling from Blue Vegeta to his base form.

One would normally think that since Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rose Black, Vegeta's base form and SSJ transformations would be stronger than Rose's, but you'd be ignoring the fact that the improved control of his godly transformations is what actually gave him the advantage against Black, it wasn't coming from a simple power boost, that's why Black was so confused he was getting beaten by a weaker transformation.

Goku, who was just as powerful as the Vegeta who was overpowered by SSJ Black, was able to compete with Fused Zamasu, fighting him equally by only using Blue at 100% of its power, which means that he and Vegeta always had the power to beat Rose Black, they just didn't have access to this level of strength due to the transformation's weaknesses.

What I'm saying is, Goku and Vegeta's Blue transformations grant them a much greater boost than Black's Rose transformation, since better use of the state equates to accessing more power, so there's no need for their base forms to backscale from their godly forms.

Plus Base Vegeta have no feats on that level anyways.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that Therefir makes perfect sense above concerning Vegeta.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

To be honest, the scaling of base Goku 2-C is not so consistent in the manga, since first in BoG (manga version) it's not established that Goku has absorbed god Ki, and second even if he had, he still uses Super Saiyan God against Hit again, unlike the anime where this transformation doesn't appear again except once against Dyspo, but even so, let's see how this progresses.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

I disagree with this weird backscaling from Blue Vegeta to his base form.

One would normally think that since Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rose Black, Vegeta's base form and SSJ transformations would be stronger than Rose's, but you'd be ignoring the fact that the improved control of his godly transformations is what actually gave him the advantage against Black,

No? He just learned to switch between SSG and SSB, only Goku got control when he entered CSSB

it wasn't coming from a simple power boost, that's why Black was so confused he was getting beaten by a weaker transformation.

Because he thought he was facing SSG Vegeta, it wasn't until after sparring him he figured out that Vegeta was turning to blue, it is literally explained that he only used blue when he attacked, he was able to dodge and react to black as SSG, only turning blue when he attacked. SSG Vegeta was comparable to black to the point that he could easily react and evade his hits, and then he went SSB in an instant to strike him.

Goku, who was just as powerful as the Vegeta who was overpowered by SSJ Black,

Considering he was able to master CSSB in between running from the future timeline and prior to the right after they returned, no, there is no way he'd be the same as then, SSG Vegeta was comparable to SSR black and he and Goku were peers

was able to compete with Fused Zamasu, fighting him equally by only using Blue at 100% of its power, which means that he and Vegeta always had the power to beat Rose Black, they just didn't have access to this level of strength due to the transformation's weaknesses.

The hypothetical 100% usage that CSSB gives doesn't affect the use of the initial SSB, which is what Vegeta used to overwhelm black nor does it invalidate the fact that his SSG form was comparable to black to react just fine to him, fusion Zamasu straight up blitzed SSG vegeta, meaning his switching mechanism was utterly useless, and ofcourse,the dumped it and went straight to SSB normally.

And mind you, even normal SSBs could hurt Fused Zamasu in that arc despite their aura overflowing

Goku blew right through him with an instant KHH
Vegeta blew apart two Fused Zamasus with a gamma burst flash
Both of them didn't even start the fight fresh before entering Blue at that point

Basically
SSGs=\<SSR Black
SSBs at 100% = Fused Zamasu
Is how the arc went in the second half

The same SSB form that couldn't do squat to SSJ black in the first half of the arc was outdone by an SSG form that was comparable to SSR black in the second half, and the SSB form in the second half had enough power to hurt a fusion consisting of SSR black


Vegeta managed to use his full SSB by using his SSG to fight and only going SSB when he attacks, which is only possible if his SSG alone is comparable enough to his opponent to actually evade and transform

What I'm saying is, Goku and Vegeta's Blue transformations grant them a much greater boost than Black's Rose transformation, since better use of the state equates to accessing more power, so there's no need for their base forms to backscale from their godly forms.

This is completely unfounded, his SSR is the same as SSB, its literally said that the only reason he didn't turn blue was because he was already a Divine being. SSB has always been a super Saiyan boost on top SSG


And even if this is true, if their blue forms suddenly give them the equivalent of black's ssj2,ssj3,SSG, and SSR all at once? This doesn't change the fact that Vegeta's SSG was stronger than his former SSB against an opponent with those same transformations upgrade

Plus Base Vegeta have no feats on that level anyways.

Not sure why you'd need 2c feats from their base, but if helps, base Goku blocked several of fused Zamasu's scatter beams




2C base is absolutely objective in the second half of the arc

 

[Damage3245]

Goku blew right through him with an instant KHH
Vegeta blew apart two Fused Zamasus with a gamma burst flash
Both of them didn't even start the fight fresh before entering Blue at that point

Just want to note that we obviously already accept that special attacks can heavily exceed the user's normal capabilities at times so this shouldn't be indicative that the two of them are normally equal to Fused Zamasu.

 

[Veronica]

Just want to note that we obviously already accept that special attacks can heavily exceed the user's normal capabilities at times so this shouldn't be indicative that the two of them are normally equal to Fused Zamasu.

How would you tell when Goku is using "god-like" power or not?

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Just want to note that we obviously already accept that special attacks can heavily exceed the user's normal capabilities at times

Yes, the point was they even without CSSB, they had the ability to hurt Fused Zamasu, even in near death states

so this shouldn't be indicative that the two of them are normally equal to Fused Zamasu.

Except CSSB is nothing more than using 100% SSB without power drop. So yes, they did have that power in the second half of the arc, they just couldn't access it within any meaningful time frame.

either way, going from SSJ>SSB to SSG >= SSR

clearly shows that their base forms massively upgraded, regardless of whether anyone thinks that their SSB multiplier got over a million times better

 

[Damage3245]

SSG >= SSR

Vegeta's Super Saiyan God was definitely not equal or superior to Super Saiyan Rose; he could only land hits on him with Super Saiyan Blue. Mastering instantly switching between God form and Blue form was the results of his training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber which is how he can react to Super Saiyan Rose's movements.

 

[Veronica]

Nobody responded or refuted my explanation of the whole "god-like" power on the manga.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Nobody responded or refuted my explanation of the whole "god-like" power on the manga.

You can tell when the aura depicted is the same as SSG, like when Goku was about to fight Frieza in the manga, unlike the anime and movie when it's the regular aura

 

[Ednaxel2]

Though I can't think of another moment that alludes to that

 

[Veronica]

You can tell when the aura depicted is the same as SSG, like when Goku was about to fight Frieza in the manga, unlike the anime and movie when it's the regular aura

That isn't SBG, that's Vegeta using SSG transformation/power to an certain extent before going SSG completely . While SBG is having permanent SSG power in base with no need to eternal sources. Also under you view it seems Vegeta has two SSG power as source. Which is false. RoF Goku can't go SSG, because he already has that power in base and when he goes SSJ, its SSB. But later on they removed base=SSG to regular SSG transformation and now SSB is 50x SSG transformation/power as shown with regular SSJ in both manga and anime.

 

[Ednaxel2]

That isn't SBG, that's Vegeta using SSG transformation/power to an certain extent before going SSG completely . While SBG is having permanent SSG power in base with no need to eternal sources. Also under you view it seems Vegeta has two SSG power as source. Which is false

That is strange ngl, also why do we consider the RoF manga as canon? Sure it's drawn by Toyotaro but that's about it, otherwise the actual DBS Manga makes some remarks to the film, with the movie comic being said to be canon to the DBS manga on that timeline, with that being 1:1 completely with the film

 

[Veronica]

That is strange ngl, also why do we consider the RoF manga as canon? Sure it's drawn by Toyotaro but that's about it, otherwise the actual DBS Manga makes some remarks to the film, with the movie comic being said to be canon to the DBS manga on that timeline, with that being 1:1 completely with the film

There is no RoF in the manga. It tells you to watch the RoF movie and the movie exactly shows if you have SSG power in base and you go SSJ, it will be SSB. Thus manga and anime U6 Arc Goku going regular SSJ isn't 50x base/SSG. As the manga replaced it with SSG transformation with SSB being SSJ/50x SSG transformation/power. Same goes for the anime.

No one so far has poked holes in this obvious progress.

 

[MrTayman616]

i agree with it. even after beerus saga. they still treated ssj as the same. trunks saga also agrees with it. the statements also seems to be showing it. i agree for manga.

not for anime though

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Vegeta's Super Saiyan God was definitely not equal or superior to Super Saiyan Rose; he could only land hits on him with Super Saiyan Blue. Mastering instantly switching between God form and Blue form was the results of his training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber which is how he can react to Super Saiyan Rose's movements.

I am pretty sure that majority of the Dragon Ball transformations, including the SSG, increase all of the user's statistics equally, which would make Post-ROSAT SSG Vegeta equal, if not superior to Post-Second Zamasu Heal SSR Black in raw power too, since he was faster than Black and could react to his attacks and dodge them with ease, while his Pre-ROSAT SSB was being overwhelmed by Post-First Zamasu Heal SSJ Black, and Vegeta's speed should have increased the same amount as his power, unless it is some kid of specific transformation like SSJ Grade 3 which increases only strength/power or vice versa

 

[Damage3245]

I am pretty sure that majority of the Dragon Ball transformations increase all of the user's statistics equally, which would make Post-ROSAT SSG Vegeta equal, if not superior to Post-Second Zamasu Heal SSR Black in raw power too, since he was faster than Black and could react to his attacks and dodge them with ease, while his Pre-ROSAT SSB was being overwhelmed by Post-First Zamasu Heal SSJ Black, and Vegeta's speed should have increased the same amount as his power, unless it is some kid of specific transformation like SSJ Grade 3 which increases only strength/power or vice versa, which isn't the case of the SSG

Goku Black can sense energy. If Vegeta, after transforming into a Super Saiyan God had been equal in stats with Goku Black, then Goku Black wouldn't have wondered what the hell Vegeta was doing by fighting him in a downgraded form. He'd have simply recognized that Vegeta was now equal to him, if he was.

 

[Veronica]

I am pretty sure that majority of the Dragon Ball transformations increase all of the user's statistics equally, which would make Post-ROSAT SSG Vegeta equal, if not superior to Post-Second Zamasu Heal SSR Black in raw power too, since he was faster than Black and could react to his attacks and dodge them with ease, while his Pre-ROSAT SSB was being overwhelmed by Post-First Zamasu Heal SSJ Black, and Vegeta's speed should have increased the same amount as his power, unless it is some kid of specific transformation like SSJ Grade 3 which increases only strength/power or vice versa, which isn't the case of the SSG

SSG isn't a multiplier. It is a set of power that you can increase by training. It's only a multiplier in a sense if you compare how powerful it is to SSJ3 Vegito compared to SSJ3.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I agree with some of the others said; it's not "Downscaling" per say, it's just upscaling to the point where base Vegeta surpassed how strong SSB used to be. Zenkais like that happen all throughout the Anime multiple times, so not surprising if Manga has moments like that albeit longer overdue to see that take place. Vegeta when from couldn't matching Black's base form to overpowering Black's SSJR with ease meaning they same fight would have turned out the same had they both been in their base forms. SSJR is identical of a multiplier as a SSJB, as they're both the SSGSS original name of the transformation; just he turns rose instead of blue due to his Godly Ki being negative/evil as opposed to positive/good.

 

[Damage3245]

Vegeta when from couldn't matching Black's base form

When did this happen in the manga?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Again, I do not know what happens in the manga fully, but I have still read other posts that something like that happened too.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Vegeta's Super Saiyan God was definitely not equal or superior to Super Saiyan Rose; he could only land hits on him with Super Saiyan Blue.

No, sorry, I meant the symbol the other way, it should have been SSG=<SSR just like my other quote

Mastering instantly switching between God form and Blue form was the results of his training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber which is how he can react to Super Saiyan Rose's movements.

Ugh, no? We literally have a clear view of how he switches? He dodged in SSG, and only turns Blue the instant when he ATTACKS, that's it. He only switched to SSB to attack, he dodged and evaded with SSG. SSG is definitely close enough to SSR Black to react to him. The fact that he can react to SSR that easily should tell us objectively that his base got boosted

Again, I do not know what happens in the manga fully, but I have still read other posts that something like that happened too.

It was black's SSJ form he couldn't keep up with initially, not base

 

[Veronica]

When did this happen in the manga?

I think its from the anime where base Black damages SSB Vegeta with a kick.

 

[Damage3245]

Again, I do not know what happens in the manga fully, but I have still read other posts that something like that happened too.

There are issues with this because if Vegeta had simply gotten strong enough where he could be equal with Goku Black, then Goku Black wouldn't be so confused as to how he is being beaten by Vegeta.

Super Saiyan Blue is also not a consistent multiplier as shown by the Universe 6 arc.

And this assumption that Vegeta merely trained to make his base be 2-C ignores that Goku didn't go though the same training so we'd still have to find a spot for him where his scaling changes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was black's SSJ form he couldn't keep up with initially, not base

Nvm, but that only means base form surpassed how strong a regular SSG was and SSJ1 surpassed how strong SSB was. Which really would still be within the 2-C ballpark.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Nvm, but that only means base form surpassed how strong a regular SSG was and SSJ1 surpassed how strong SSB was. Which really would still be within the 2-C ballpark.

Yes, that's the objective fact tbh

 

[Killerdrone123]

Iirc blacks ssj2 form was somewhat equal to vegeta's blue form then he transforms into rose and beats up vegeta

 

[Veronica]

Nvm, but that only means base form surpassed how strong a regular SSG was and SSJ1 surpassed how strong SSB was. Which really would still be within the 2-C ballpark.

The notion that SSJ3 Goku against Toppo is now 400x SSG is absolutely absurd and surported by nothing.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

There are issues with this because if Vegeta had simply gotten strong enough where he could be equal with Goku Black, then Goku Black wouldn't be so confused as to how he is being beaten by Vegeta.

Super Saiyan Blue is also not a consistent multiplier as shown by the Universe 6 arc.

And this assumption that Vegeta merely trained to make his base be 2-C ignores that Goku didn't go though the same training so we'd still have to find a spot for him where his scaling changes.

all this "how did he get stronger without training" is a non-issue. Every saiyan on their profile has reactive power level so this argument doesnt work