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Massive Dark Souls Downgrades 3

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1) Dude we as players can go hollow. What even. Hollows are limited in their intelligence, I'll grant you, but you're now just calling any time a person goes hollow and has some amount of sentience an obvious inconsistency. Hell, once again in Ringed City, the monument that Patches is searching for is a gathering place for Hollows to try to regain their sanity.

2) Again I've just gotta agree to disagree, you've got your opinion and I can't shake yah on that. He slew the Pygmy Lords and appears to have the whole Dark Soul.

3) yeah no worries boyo
 
Mr. Bambu said:
As for 5-A. Time is Dark Souls is never absolute, which is why I'd tend to prefer baseline 4-C. We know that huge swathes of time do indeed pass between games- entire civilizations are lost to history, renowned folkloric heroes names are lost to time, etc. The rare few references we get to time are also nearly bunk due to damned Solaire's time is convuluted mumbo jumbo.
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That doesn't really discount a milleniun timeframe. Civilizations can get razed and heroes forgotten within a single millenium
 
hSheevShezarrine said:
Mr. Bambu said:
As for 5-A. Time is Dark Souls is never absolute, which is why I'd tend to prefer baseline 4-C. We know that huge swathes of time do indeed pass between games- entire civilizations are lost to history, renowned folkloric heroes names are lost to time, etc. The rare few references we get to time are also nearly bunk due to damned Solaire's time is convuluted mumbo jumbo.
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That doesn't really discount a milleniun timeframe. Civilizations can get razed and heroes forgotten within a single millenium
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hell some civilizations don't even last a centry
 
That's true but when you consider how massive Anor Londo was (Literally ruled by the Gods) it's likely it took quite a while for it to be forgotten (I'd compare it more to say Rome where it still is remembered but alas)
 
A milennium is an extremely arbitrary timeframe was the point. The only reference point for it was that the Serpent hadn't seen the Lord Vessel in a thousand years- not that Gwyn had been the Lord of Cinder that long before faltering.

The feat should be counted the same we treat any other feat of warping a celestial object- baseline AP of the tier that object is in.
 
it wasn't tho

its still remembered historians and the like do as seen in the description of smoughs hammer

plus anor londo was from the first age we know of 8 lords of cinder form 3 games thats at least 8 seprate ages and it is stated that there were countless ages and far more lord then just 8
 
I agree with downgrades. Outside of it being a light in the sky called "the sun" there's no solid evidence of it being analogous to our sun. small, sun-like projections can be fairly easily fabricated, afaik there's no evidence of more complex astral bodies such ad nebulae and galaxies lending credence to the DkS sun being an actual star (as is the case with the Clockwork City in TES), there's no evidence of the DkS sun undergoing nuclear fusion, it doesn't die in the same manner our sun eventually will, DkS doesn't take place in a setting that is essentially a fictionalized version of our universe such as with Cthulhu Mythos or many comic universes, and it takes inspiration from Greek and Norse mythology, where the sun (and most everything else,for that matter) wasn't portrayed with mucb scientific accuracy.
 
I think most can accept that lighting the first flame is a 4-C feat. The issue becomes with the fact that it's completely non-combat applicable. None of the 4-C rated characters in dark souls can perform 4-C attacks via the feat of powering the first flame.

Containing 4-C energy and being able to utilize it in combat are two different things and it's pretty clear to anyone that has played the game that they quite clearly have different physical stats to the energy that they contain.
 
Does being able to fuel an energy source automatically equate to durability on that level? what if the vessel of the fuel is extremely fragile?
 
That makes sense. It's an interesting debate for sure. I would say Darksouls is just a verse that doesn't work particularly well with our scaling/tiering rules.
 
Sir Ovens said:
That's like saying you can store a red hot iron ball within a paper mache container. The vessel needs to be comparable to or stronger than the energy it contains for it to even be contained.
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So nuclear casings are town-city level? But in all seriiousness, it still applies. They power the Sun with their souls. You gain power the stronger your soul becomes. So it still scales.
 
Sir Ovens said:
That's like saying you can store a red hot iron ball within a paper mache container. The vessel needs to be comparable to or stronger than the energy it contains for it to even be contained.
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My only problem with this is that it implies whatever energy the lord contains to light the first flame is constantly occuring within their body when this almost never occurs in nature. While stars do act like this normally, this doesn't need to be the case with something like the chosen undead lighting the first flame. This is also like saying a bomb has X ap and therefor X defense when this isn't true.


Most things in nature have potential energy and aren't always reacting. What's to say it's not the physical act of lighting the first flame that causes the potential energy in their bodies to come forth. This would make sense seeing as the characters are complete husks of themselves after lighting said flame.
 
Nuclear casings are destroyed when the bomb explodes aka when it actually is 7-B, meanwhile the Lords of Cider survive the kindling

Also wrong equalicy as in Dark Soul power comes from souls, which's power doesn't change, and as seen by the fact that the firekeeper says "Sovereignless souls will become thy strength." and soul magic, this power is used to power one self up and can be weaponized.
 
Everyone here still acting like they keep the sun in existence when I showed that is isn't the only option and there ain't proof of it, unless of course you've been saving in all along.
 
^ Actually not true. Dark Souls does have a rare case of legitimate KE for the storm.
 
The storm is seen physically dispersing upon the Nameless King's death to the point it is no longer visible. Similarly the storm is seen being pulled in upon the ringing of the bell. It isn't that far dissimilar to All Might's storm feat, to be honest.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
That just seems to be a variation of the "medieval fantasy" fallacy.
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"I think the cosmology of the verse is too far removed from our own to be equated for various reasons, including its lack of realism in that regard and its influences also lacking such realism"

"FALLACY"
 
A lot of the arguing for the downgrade here is basically just "I don't believe this medieval setting with knights in armor swinging swords can be this strong". Let's be absolutely real.

The feats involving the First Flame lore-wise are very clear in how existence itself in the Dark Souls Universe originates from it.
 
I just want to ask

Does anyone who currently supports the downgrades actually know and understand the lore and events in the series that are used to give them their current rating?
 
Really if you push it hard enough you could get Tier 2 Dark Souls, which is obviously too much, but it is undeniable the power that the First Flame has.
 
If this thread wasn't about a downgrade I'd push for The Abyss being on the same level as the First Flame. Somehow, Manus being 6-B just doesn't sit right with me. That, and Artorias' soul giving the Abyss Watchers Lord of Cinder status just screams 4-C Abyss.
 
The Abyss Watcher got their power from steam rolling multiple civilizations in the name of Artorias and their hunt for the Abyss, not because Artorias is 4-C but I do feel like Artorias surviving Manus' smack down could be an outlier on his part but I'm not to confident on Manus' scaling.

Pretty much if Artorias is 4-C, that would mean Ornstein is 4-C, which makes Solaire, Havel, Black Iron Tarkus, and all Everlasting Dragons 4-C.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
A lot of the arguing for the downgrade here is basically just "I don't believe this medieval setting with knights in armor swinging swords can be this strong". Let's be absolutely real.

The feats involving the First Flame lore-wise are very clear in how existence itself in the Dark Souls Universe originates from it.
Click to expand...
I support Low 2-C Castlevania and end-game Skyrim/Morrowind as well as the accompanying cosmic body feats of those verses, but oh well I guess I downplay them as weak because they use swords because Matt says I do ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»

And where exactly is it stated that the sun has to be an actual star for the First Flame's power to manifest through it?
 
Even if the DS sun isn't an actual sun, it should be hell of a lot stronger than weaker. It's basically keeping existence together. So the alternative to treating the sun as not a real one would be a Low 2-C sun.

Even I can't get behind that.
 
What I'm trying to say is that the DS sun, even if not an actual sun, should be much stronger than one, not weaker.
 
Sir Ovens said:
Even if the DS sun isn't an actual sun, it should be hell of a lot stronger than weaker. It's basically keeping existence together. So the alternative to treating the sun as not a real one would be a Low 2-C sun.

Even I can't get behind that.
Click to expand...
Or it could be Planet level, like with Demon's Souls and Ninjago characters with creation/sustenance feats of the same variety. Hell, the First Flame actively demonstrates what,coukd be construed as a,continental to multi-continental feat in the convergence that occurs in Dark Souls 3, while the First Flame is in its weakest-ever state
 
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