Massive Dark Souls Downgrades 3

[Konaguna]

1. Yeah obviously linear scaling is bunk since Lore > Gameplay.

No, the scaling Works completely fine without tier 4 which is the point here

2. Kona is essentially just memeing/poking at people at this point so this is essentially dead.

Nice strawmann, I was adressing their bs, since they were literally lying on the spot

3. I agree with upgrading Lord Souls to 4-C tbh. Gwyn's soul might have been the strongest, and I say that as a maybe, but the others shouldn't be too far off from him. Note that I disagree (if this was brought up) with scaling beings with shards of their souls to them- Daughters of Izalith, Seath, Four Kings, etc.

I have no problem with having other lord souls comparable to Gwyn, but by no means are they tier 4

 

[Konaguna]

And you haven't provided any viable counterarguments against their points.

Says the guy who has to rely on others to try and prove a point, I literally made a lenghty post on this and explained it to you you just continue to ignore

She did create the flame. Or rather a twisted version of it that went horribly wrong. She wasn't not strong enough, she was playing with an unstable primordial force, and ****** up big time.

Scans?

Maybe because it makes sense for the other Lords to scale to Gwyn? It's because the scaling makes sense, with extreamely few outliers/anti-feats. Maybe quit making fallacies, and I'll quit calling you out on them "Cheya".

It does, but they ain't tier 4

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Dude, attack the point, not the person.

We're going to go nowhere if you keep saying that people are lying and accuse people of ignoring your posts.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

@Kon how do you refute the fact that lords clearly contain the energy to fuel the sun and therefore would require equivelant AP to harm/be harmed by other characters in the franchise?

 

[Konaguna]

But people are lying, this guy telling me in the first comment he sees good point in the thread, and now he's saying no good arguments have been made, it's honestly pathetic

I made a post for a reason but peopel choose to ignore it and just pretend like the points I made don't exist, only Overlord actually bothered to make a proper refute.

 

[Konaguna]

@Kon how do you refute the fact that lords clearly contain the energy to fuel the sun and therefore would require equivelant AP to harm/be harmed by other characters in the franchise?

1) Gonna need scans to prove they directly fuel it

2) Gonna need scasn to prove that they keep it in existnece

3) Aldia's dialouge goes against it

4) Far better reasoning for this explanation give how the current tiering goes against verse consistency

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The points you make have been addressed. Scaling can and will be fixed. I agree that the scaling as of now is kinda wack.

But the sun argument still stands. As you said in the OP, we rate them as 4-C because they make sense. You have provided us one anti-feat regarding illusions, but even so, it doesn't outright state that the sun is an illusion.

That within itself has some problems. First of all, it's one statement made by one guy over the countless other interpretations that say otherwise. Dark Souls is based on myth, so why does Aldia's statement hold any more water than the others? Plus, if the sun truly is an illusion, it's one heck of a powerful illusion that would still put the verse well above tier 6.

 

[Overlord775]

No, the scaling Works completely fine without tier 4 which is the point here

No, it doesn't. For exemple the Old Demon King is fought after the Abyss Watcher and unless you think that the combined power of the best army in Dark Souls is inferior to the half-dead corpse of a demon of old you would realize that it doesn't make sense

Another exemple is that the Dancer is fought after Sulyvan (Which is the correct progression as seen by the NPC quests), who is canonically superior to her.

I have no problem with having other lord souls comparable to Gwyn, but by no means are they tier 4

Nothing implies that the other 2 prime lord souls were much weaker than Gwyn's, so they should be 4-C too

 

[Konaguna]

The guy making that statement has literally broke free of the cycle of kindling and rekindling, he knows more about the flame than anyone else.

There is nothing firm to actually prove what they stand for now, it's all hasty generalization.

 

[Konaguna]

@Over

When did I say he was inferior? I said bosses past stronger ones can be somewhat comparable, just because they have the same Ap don't make em as strong as them.

No, you can fight dancer after wordt, character progressions and NPC quest are optional as is selection of boss order, Dark souls is a game that encourages freedom of choices, not tell you that this is the only way.

before you start claiming that they tier 4, first have a solid argument for a tier 4 lmao

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Breaking free of the cycle doesn't explain how he knows more. Hell, I can say Gwyn should know more since he's the guy who started the cycle in the first place.

 

[Overlord775]

@Over
No, you can fight dancer after wordt, character progressions and NPC quest are optional as is selection of boss order, Dark souls is a game that encourages freedom of choices, not tell you that this is the only way.

and Greatwood can be fought after you killed every other boss in the game.

 

[Konaguna]

It's not like Aldia has spent his life doing research which allowed him to do so in the first place

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@Over

No, you can fight dancer after wordt, character progressions and NPC quest are optional as is selection of boss order, Dark souls is a game that encourages freedom of choices, not tell you that this is the only way.

Good to know that Dragonslayer Armour is stronger than 3 Lords of Cinder.

The same Dragonslayer Armour that scales to everything that can kill a dragon. Havel, Seath, etc. And who cant kill a Khlameet? Gwyn. So, Dragonslayer Armour is canonically stronger than Gwyn.

Nice.

 

[Konaguna]

and Greatwood can be fought after you killed every other boss in the game.

Alright, let's take a different approach.

Let's put your logic into something more direct.

You claim bosses should have their own feats due to scaling being whack, and yeah I agree, scalin gis whack mostly just in DKS 3.

But what you're saying is that literally every boss past a lord of cinder such as abyss watchers now get Shitstomped? Even though these bosses can keep up with you and damage you just like every other boss?

You prolly want to say "Game Mechanics" "Lore is more important".

But no, Lore comes after the ACTUAL FEATS. And if you're telling me every insiginifacnt boss past a strong one has no feats or all his feats are wrong becaus it can keep up with you, then we have problem don't we?

A'll I am saying is that they should hold similar power, not be automatically stronger.

Saying every other boss is a joke beacuse it contradicts the lore is just ridoncuolus

 

[Konaguna]

@Over Good to know that Dragonslayer Armour is stronger than 3 Lords of Cinder.

The same Dragonslayer Armour that scales to everything that can kill a dragon. Havel, Seath, etc. And who cant kill a Khlameet? Gwyn. So, Dragonslayer Armour is canonically stronger than Gwyn.

Nice.

Good to know that Dragonslayer armor can be beaten before any lord is beaten

nice

 

[Overlord775]

A random hollow can still hurt you and survive your attacks after you killed Vordt and Greatwood, who are >>>> a random hollow, so saying that weaker enemies scale via being able to hurt you is wrong

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am too overworked to try to handle this, but you should use the Dark Souls verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to find staff members to ask to comment here.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Good to know that Dragonslayer armor can be beaten before any lord is beaten

nice

You're missing the point. It's not about choosing to kill Dragonslayer Armour before the Lords of Cinder. It's about whether I can kill the Lords of Cinder before Dragonslayer Armour. You can't say that there's a "correct" way to play Dark Souls. If I knew nothing about the game and just went on my merry way, I would have killed Dragonslayer Armour after the Lords. The same way the Player Character would have done if they knew nothing about being an Ashen One.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Also if Darksouls universe is so similar to ours, how in the age of Ancients were there heliocentric planets without stars/suns. They are sort of required to form planets I believe? If we weren't lowballing the feat it would be possibly 2-C (something Matthew mentioned earlier) we would be implying the lighting of the first flame keeps all the stars in the verse alive if there was just no sun before the first flame appeared.

All it's stated is in flowery language in the intro DS1 cinematic that when the lords took their souls from the first flame it created 'light and dark' 'Heat and cold' 'life and death' but it also heavily implies that it's the creation of the spark of life itself.

You could go even further and imply the first flame keeps these concepts in existance as well.

I think it's more likely that the world was just shrouded in fog by the age of ancients and didn't allow sunlight in for life to form, then upon the first flame appearing the fog dispersed allowing for the creation of the 4 lords.

The cinematic also clearly shows Gwyn unable to kill eternal dragons by himself.

I think one of the main points against all of this is reality falling apart in Darksouls 3 due to the first flame not being linked but that also doesn't automatically equate to 4-C attack power IMO.

@Kona, I think you should probably drop it though. It's generally accepted by too many people at this point

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Kona

The scaling "working" without Tier 4 doesn't matter lol. The scaling being batshit insane is largely due to the open nature of the game, and the simple fact that Tier 4 is rough for scaling in that scheme is irrelevant.

It isn't strawman to point out the fact that you're regularly like that. If you want to make a serious change, approach it seriously.

Simple denying of Tier 4 doesn't negate the Tier 4 implications.

As for your points on Lightbuster... How in the hell do you claim strawman at me and then completely ignore his point by saying "yeah well you rely on others lawl ecks dee"? What?

You asking for scans in Dark Souls is a good sign that you probably don't know what you're talking about considering how vague the lore is. Earlier you referenced a Dark Souls video- if I may make a suggestion, VaatiVidya. Very good guy, had the opportunity to talk to him once, knows his shit. You want scans? Watch the videos.

I'm about 99.9% certain this will be yet another "Tier 4 is bunk imho" thread that goes nowhere because it has been a dead horse getting ruthlessly beaten for a few years now.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr. Bambu

So, given that this thread is apparently not going to lead anywhere, should we close it, so it won't waste the staff's time anymore?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm personally willing to see if Kona has anything to say aside from the points that have been debated to death in the past to no results, but I am doubtful. If other staff are needed elsewhere I'm more than happy to handle the thread, though if nothing results in, say, twenty-four hours I'd say this is the same as every other thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to close it when you consider it appropriate then, and Konaguna should permanently stop creating these threads, as he is wasting the staff's time and energy.

 

[Lightbuster30]

@Kona As for your points on Lightbuster... How in the hell do you claim strawman at me and then completely ignore his point by saying "yeah well you rely on others lawl ecks dee"? What?

Pretty sure he pulled a genetic fallacy on me. And ofc I'd rely on your arguments instead of my own. You and others clearly know more about the Ringed City DLC than me (seeing as I only just started), so you're the better judge in those areas.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No worries boyo.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

ok this is litrally getting no where

no real argument has been made for the downgrade in the past 2 weeks

i think this should be closed(Plus i don't really want for this to go further into the subject of the first flame cuse that might result in tier 2 dark souls and i have a few warhammer vs ds battles i wanted to do and that would really **** it up)

>No real argument has been made

"there are good points here some that i agree with but the whole gael thing is wrong" -your quote

mhmmmm Sounds like you have me for an idiot

IN THE PAST 2 WEEKS

not over all read what i say mate

 

[Sir_sun_man]

plus memeing at this point dosen't do anything other then make it look like you don't even have a point to make anymore

 

[Overlord775]

@Bambu

Wouldn't it be better to change the 4-C to "possibly 4-C" or "likely 4-C" since we don't know exactly how the the linking of the fire works ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair point. "Likely 4-C" would work.

 

[Overlord775]

Then we should make the changes

 

[Konaguna]

Uhhh, honestly Is debate all of this but I got a test tomorrow and I'm he only one who has to do all the ******* chores again so I'll reply tomorrow if this still open

I'm being completely serious

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Is there a more solid tier we can place them at before the likely 4-C?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not really?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Can the changes be put into place now?

 

[Hellbeast1]

ID suggest High 6-A as the more solid tier for world illuminating but alas.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Probably. Basically the "changes" result in adding a "Likely 4-C" instead of the original "4-C".

Gonna close this since Kona literally never returned.