Massive Ben 10 Revisions Part 1 (2020 Corona edition)

[The_Impress]

What is even the current topic of discussion

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What is even the current topic of discussion

People are going around finding things to support 8-C and high 8-C.

 

[The_Impress]

Are there replacement feats present currently?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yes, there are 3 of them.

 

[The_Impress]

Mmm, set a deadline to promote workflow and null any unnecessary delay, let's say till Monday, opponents will be able to find feats, no?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Mmm, set a deadline to promote workflow and null any unnecessary delay, let's say till Monday, opponents will be able to find feats, no?

Till Monday? Sure. We don’t need to be here all day now.

 

[The_Impress]

So yeah by Monday, Zamasu, you should be applying this revision if the opponents are genuinely unable to get anything calc'd.

Also a note to CRT Opponents, preferably post EXPLICIT feats only, and if you want calcs exact, ask a Calc Member/Capable Bluename separate from this thread.

 

[Shadyboi0]

All the aliens being one tier never made sense to me.

 

[Greenshifter]

To say, abusing AOE Fallacy to write off a variety of feats not having anywhere near the AP as a supposed rating, when in fact that makes 0 sense for a lot of stuff.

How do you explain the planet busters not blowing up a planet every time they fight? Or heck not everyone (who’s tier 5) even has the range to blow up the planet in the verse so they’ll never have the same AoE as their AP. Them putting effort into stuff doesn’t matter if it doesn’t relate to regular weapons or structures.

All the aliens being one tier never made sense to me.

Give me a single instance of a mid-tier oneshotting a low-tier or a high-tier oneshotting a mid-tier. I’ll wait. Unless you’re talking about ultimates, which indeed the stronger ones should be tier 5 (Ult. Echo Echo probably AP only).

 

[Shadyboi0]

I’ll wait. Unless you’re talking about ultimates, which indeed the stronger ones should be tier 5 (Ult. Echo Echo probably AP only).

wait no more because Ultimates being in the same tier made no sense.

 

[Greenshifter]

Can't believe ya'll are telling me Stinkfly can't country-bust, smh

No-one ever claimed that he could, he doesn't even have the range to country-bust.

That all depends, but it’s probably something that needs to be looked at. Too many people use temperature feats to justify all around AP. I might be willing to take a look at characters who are carried strictly by temperature feats.

I mean it's not fully a temperature feat I think, at least not strictly. It's an energy beam, which in Ben 10 scales to physicals, see all the bounty hunters who's weapons are comparable to their stiking.

“They” as in all the street tiers.

Armodrillo almost destroyed a city in Cosmic Destruction , unless you don't count statements at all now. Also would be useful to have an actual estimate of what tier every anti-feat is, since anti-feats are limits. Too many of them in different tiers and they also start contradicting each other.

It doesn’t work like that. Their “durability” is really resistance.

Wok was the one who told me heat ≠ force, and Dargoo said heat feats shouldn’t apply to physicals.

I agree with that sentiment. It's just currently not applied as far as I'm aware, no many times you repeat that will change that. Look I'm even willing to give the example here and splice physical AP and heat on the pages for the aliens, I just don't think we'll be allowed to do that.

True but it doesn’t make it any more viable. At best it’s an outlier (ew) by definition.

You said it was straight up unusable in the OP. I suggest you change that then.

Interesting. Either way Andreas managed to reduce the yield before it detonated, so the crumbling castle portion is what he scales to.

Reducing the yield would scale to his AP since he had to counter-vibrate it.

I get the LS for the anti gravity disk but in order for Goop to perform said feat, he needed to merge with the planet.

We have no proof the core system amped the energy needed to do the feat, at best it amped its range. So LS and AP stay the same, range should probably be updated.

Plenty of these feats are characters visibly putting effort into it, and there isn't any established mechanic like Ki Control to justify AOE being automatically limited.

Actually Atomix might have the closest thing to this. I mean he literally shoots kamehameha's (but with a slightly different name).

 

[Greenshifter]

wait no more because Ultimates being in the same tier made no sense.

Oh ok yeah that'll be fixed I think, they have or scale to multipliers/added power of individual aliens. Unless their name is spidermonkey, Wildmutt, swampfire or Big Chill and Albedo's almost featless ultimates.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

To say, abusing AOE Fallacy to write off a variety of feats not having anywhere near the AP as a supposed rating, when in fact that makes 0 sense for a lot of stuff.

You do realize that some characters can have Country level AP but they don't have the necessary to bust a country right? AP tends to be concentrated most of the time in fiction or else by that logic most of the characters in fiction are only 9-A to 8-C.

Plenty of these feats are characters visibly putting effort into it,

As stated above that doesn't matter as I said AP tends to be concentrated most of the time in fiction them putting effort into it means absolutely nothing that's like saying current Naruto is only 8-C because did put effort to destroy a building.

and there isn't any established mechanic like Ki Control to justify AOE being automatically limited

Just like 95% of the characters in fiction? As I said having Country level AP = Country level range especially if those AP feats comes from scaling.

Not to mention all of the feats of just random explosives going off, not kitted out to limit area of effect

You have yet to prove why it wouldn't

This combined with the massive list of anti-feats puts such a sentiment into question by far.

For the **** sake what are those anti feats? Most of them are based on AoE limitations not only to mention that those anti feats are not even consistent since most of the Anti feats in Ben 10 are done very Casually

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Armodrillo almost destroyed a city in Cosmic Destruction

Since when? Scans pls....

 

[Greenshifter]

 

[Gohanblanco217]

No evidence or statement for city level destruction tho unless I'm blind or something

 

[Greenshifter]

Gwen: "Ben, try not to destroy the entire city."
Kevin: "Hey, the night is young."

They clearly see Ben as capable of destroying the city, and for anyone who thinks they're hyperboling: They're using a map so they could have just said "try to not destroy the subway/wherever he is going next" if that is what they meant.

 

[The_Impress]

Gwen: "Ben, try not to destroy the subway station you are planning to head towards"

Are you familiar with the concepts of "Insinuations", "Comedic Exaggeration" and "Syllable Count", rq?

In general what makes Gwen a reliable narrator in terms of the exact area she can quantify of Ben's destruction?

 

[DemonicDude]

Gwen: "Ben, try not to destroy the entire city."
Kevin: "Hey, the night is young."

They clearly see Ben as capable of destroying the city, and for anyone who thinks they're hyperboling: They're using a map so they could have just said "try to not destroy the subway/wherever he is going next" if that is what they meant.

Just wait till someone reply you that it's probably a hyperbole

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Just wait till someone reply you that it's probably a hyperbole

Look above lol ^

 

[DemonicDude]

Gwen: "Ben, try not to destroy the subway station you are planning to head towards"

Are you familiar with the concepts of "Insinuations", "Comedic Exaggeration" and "Syllable Count", rq?

In general what makes Gwen a reliable narrator in terms of the exact area she can quantify of Ben's destruction?

Right on point... See Green, I have probability manip

 

[The_Impress]

If you're done circlejerking each other with bullshit messages to make it hit page three, I'd like a response.

Cry in the DMs or something, not on the thread. I will straight up delete derailments from this point.

 

[The_Impress]

Is it tough to understand me? @Gohanblanco217

Remain objective, have friendly discussions and jokes in Fun and Games or Vs. Threads.

 

[Greenshifter]

Gwen: "Ben, try not to destroy the subway station you are planning to head towards"

Are you familiar with the concepts of "Insinuations", "Comedic Exaggeration" and "Syllable Count", rq?

In general what makes Gwen a reliable narrator in terms of the exact area she can quantify of Ben's destruction?

She’s in a team with him and could be that she felt the shockwaves since she’s there in Tokyo, if not detected it on the instruments they’re using. She’s also more than smart enough to deduce the yield of Armodrillo’s drilling from feeling it. So she could have just said “try to not destroy the underground/subway” if that’s what she meant.

 

[Abu2411]

I hate that they're so ******* Low, but I agree with this. Accuracy is important.

This is fantastic! I can imagine a bunch of good match-ups, specifically with Marvel/DC characters. 8-C is an awesome tier for fights.

Besides, Alien-X is should be 1-A anyway.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I mean it's not fully a temperature feat I think, at least not strictly. It's an energy beam, which in Ben 10 scales to physicals, see all the bounty hunters who's weapons are comparable to their stiking.

Yes laser the impact can be comparable to the striking strength of the characters. However, this doesn’t mean the impact of the beam = the AP it has from heat. Heat ≠ force

Armodrillo almost destroyed a city in Cosmic Destruction , unless you don't count statements at all now.

C’mon man you’re really using that for a justification? This is like that one episode in Omniverse where Ben was all like “Yo Clyde is destroying the city!” When Clyde was simply flying around the city destroying buildings. Not to mention all Armodrillo did was break a wall.

Also would be useful to have an actual estimate of what tier every anti-feat is, since anti-feats are limits. Too many of them in different tiers and they also start contradicting each other.

I guess. Though some of the ones I mentioned are tier 7.

I agree with that sentiment. It's just currently not applied as far as I'm aware, no many times you repeat that will change that. Look I'm even willing to give the example here and splice physical AP and heat on the pages for the aliens, I just don't think we'll be allowed to do that.

Yes, separating heat AP and striking AP was part of my plan as well. And like I said before, I feel like too many characters get away with things like this.

You said it was straight up unusable in the OP. I suggest you change that then.

And how does calling it an outlier at best make it less unusable?

Reducing the yield would scale to his AP since he had to counter-vibrate it.

The bomb was vibrating before it discharged. Andreas stopping pre-discharged vibrations doesn’t mean he scales to the full blast. The reduced blast still hurt him very bad too. Not to mention a simple blast from said weapon managed to hurt Swampfire, Gwen, Kevin, and Andreas himself. If a fired shot from the seismic weapon is that deadly, why on earth would most of the cast scale to the self destruction of the weapon?

We have no proof the core system amped the energy needed to do the feat, at best it amped its range. So LS and AP stay the same, range should probably be updated.

If Goop has to become a planet to perform a feat on that level, why would it scale to him physically? At best this would be “up to 6-C (or whatever tier) with abilities. And if we keep the lifting strength, it should scale to no one else.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

C’mon man you’re really using that for a justification? This is like that one episode in Omniverse where Ben was all like “Yo Clyde is destroying the city!” When Clyde was simply flying around the city destroying buildings. Not to mention all Armodrillo did was break a wall.

I mean Gwen made that statement when she saw/felt Armodrillo shaking the whole station by punching the ground proving that he would've destroyed the whole station if he continued like this

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I mean Gwen made that statement when she saw/felt Armodrillo shaking the whole station by punching the ground proving that he would've destroyed the whole station if he continued like this

Shaking an entire train station until it eventually crumbles is not as impressive as it sounds. Train stations are building sized, and very hollow.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Shaking an entire train station until it eventually crumbles is not as impressive as it sounds. Train stations are building sized, and very hollow.

The problem is considering Gwen felt the shockwaves then the shock waves made by Amarillo should've reached Gwen position so it simply depends where was Gwen during that moment

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The problem is considering Gwen felt the shockwaves then the shock waves made by Amarillo should've reached Gwen position so it simply depends where was Gwen during that moment

You put saw/felt, which implies it’s not clear. What points to her actually seeing it?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

You put saw/felt, which implies it’s not clear. What points to her actually seeing it?

My bad I mean she should've felt the shockwaves from her position

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

My bad I mean she should've felt the shockwaves from her position

Ah well if it's that ambiguous then there's no way of knowing.

 

[Antvasima]

If you're done circlejerking each other with bullshit messages to make it hit page three, I'd like a response.

Cry in the DMs or something, not on the thread. I will straight up delete derailments from this point.

I largely agree with the sentiments, but there are much nicer ways to express them, so our regular members do not feel abused by our staff.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, have Zamasu's new calculations been evaluated? If so, what has been accepted in this thread can probably be applied.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Anyway, have Zamasu's new calculations been evaluated? If so, what has been accepted in this thread can probably be applied.

They've been accepted. Zark set a deadline for Monday. If no one brings any new feats or evidence to oppose this downgrade, then the changes shall be made.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

They've been accepted. Zark set a deadline for Monday. If no one brings any new feats or evidence to oppose this downgrade, then the changes shall be made.

Can you post the calcs that were accepted?

 

[Antvasima]

They've been accepted. Zark set a deadline for Monday. If no one brings any new feats or evidence to oppose this downgrade, then the changes shall be made.

Okay. That is probably fine.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yes laser the impact can be comparable to the striking strength of the characters. However, this doesn’t mean the impact of the beam = the AP it has from heat. Heat ≠ force

Yes, separating heat AP and striking AP was part of my plan as well. And like I said before, I feel like too many characters get away with things like this.

All right fine, I'm willing to give the example and let Ben 10 currently be the one and only verse on VSBW (and even outside of it) that separates heat and striking AP, under a few conditions: 1) You'll make a new thread after this to discuss all the heat feats and anti-feats in the verse. 2) All the pages will have a division between striking and heat in their AP and durability in the form of x tier physically, y tier with/against heat. 3) You (and I'll help) make a distinction between physical anti-feats and heat anti-feats (or some that qualify for both) on your blog. If you can arrange all of that then I'll co-operate to give the example for other verses. If not the deal's off and we treat it like we currently do for all other verses.

C’mon man you’re really using that for a justification? This is like that one episode in Omniverse where Ben was all like “Yo Clyde is destroying the city!” When Clyde was simply flying around the city destroying buildings. Not to mention all Armodrillo did was break a wall.

I realized this wasn't a great idea after looking up the feat, it was the statement I could remember where Ben almost caused the most amount of collateral damage if you see it as city level. That said Blanco did bring up a good point afterwards.

And how does calling it an outlier at best make it less unusable?

If suddenly we get a continuation of the show and get say 100 tier 6 feats then the feat could be usable, if the calc were inherently flawed then this would't be the case. That's the difference I want to make clear.

The bomb was vibrating before it discharged. Andreas stopping pre-discharged vibrations doesn’t mean he scales to the full blast. The reduced blast still hurt him very bad too. Not to mention a simple blast from said weapon managed to hurt Swampfire, Gwen, Kevin, and Andreas himself. If a fired shot from the seismic weapon is that deadly, why on earth would most of the cast scale to the self destruction of the weapon?

I see where you're coming from here. That said, he also reduced the yield of the bomb as stated by Kevin, so his own vibrations must be comparable to the 5 square miles (which would be it's yield after Swampfire muffled it probably). So I'm unsure how to treat this since Andreas' AP should scale to the main cast (whether or not we use the feat).

If Goop has to become a planet to perform a feat on that level, why would it scale to him physically? At best this would be “up to 6-C (or whatever tier) with abilities. And if we keep the lifting strength, it should scale to no one else.

Treat the AGP like a battery, a battery doesn't need to be part of something for it to output a certain energy level, but whatever it's a part of can distribute said energy over a certain area. That doesn't mean Goop's punches would be said tier, however the energy (AP) and force (LS) he uses to restrain or crush people would actually be said tier. So whether it scales to other people depends on whether they can resist his crushing/restrainment, which is a discussion for another time. His AP would more be like x tier physically/by himself, y tier with AGP and his LS would stay as is.

 

[The_Impress]

She’s in a team with him

Do you know the BMI of your parents exact? This is the level of precision we're discussing

And could be that she felt the shockwaves since she’s there in Tokyo, if not detected it on the instruments they’re using.

Proof to support this sentiment?

She’s also more than smart enough to deduce the yield of Armodrillo’s drilling from feeling it.

What are her Intelligence feats? This is like, Mister Fantastic level shit you're discussing

So she could have just said “try to not destroy the underground/subway” if that’s what she meant.

I mean, "city" works as well. Ben isn't an idiot that he won't understand basic insinuations

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

All right fine, I'm willing to give the example and let Ben 10 currently be the one and only verse on VSBW (and even outside of it) that separates heat and striking AP, under a few conditions: 1) You'll make a new thread after this to discuss all the heat feats and anti-feats in the verse. 2) All the pages will have a division between striking and heat in their AP and durability in the form of x tier physically, y tier with/against heat. 3) You (and I'll help) make a distinction between physical anti-feats and heat anti-feats (or some that qualify for both) on your blog. If you can arrange all of that then I'll co-operate to give the example for other verses. If not the deal's off and we treat it like we currently do for all other verses.

I don’t mind separating temperature feats. Not all profiles, but the ones who have feats based on temperature. Even then, that depends on how heat feats are currently being treated. Ask Wok lol. I also don’t get what you mean by heat anti-fetas because I never added any. I see no point in doing that.

I realized this wasn't a great idea after looking up the feat, it was the statement I could remember where Ben almost caused the most amount of collateral damage if you see it as city level. That said Blanco did bring up a good point afterwards.

His evidence was rater weak and based on speculation.

If suddenly we get a continuation of the show and get say 100 tier 6 feats then the feat could be usable, if the calc were inherently flawed then this would't be the case. That's the difference I want to make clear.

Guess what dude those 100 tier 6 feats don’t exist so I don’t see how this changes what I said.

I see where you're coming from here. That said, he also reduced the yield of the bomb as stated by Kevin, so his own vibrations must be comparable to the 5 square miles (which would be it's yield after Swampfire muffled it probably). So I'm unsure how to treat this since Andreas' AP should scale to the main cast (whether or not we use the feat).

They got hurt by a simple blast from it and a much smaller yield of the stated detonation put Andreas in critical condition, yet the high end is the bteer option? You said yourself that manipulating vibrations can be hax. So you tell me, why should it scale when it's directly contradicted?

Treat the AGP like a battery, a battery doesn't need to be part of something for it to output a certain energy level, but whatever it's a part of can distribute said energy over a certain area. That doesn't mean Goop's punches would be said tier, however the energy (AP) and force (LS) he uses to restrain or crush people would actually be said tier. So whether it scales to other people depends on whether they can resist his crushing/restrainment, which is a discussion for another time. His AP would more be like x tier physically/by himself, y tier with AGP and his LS would stay as is.

Maybe that can work but it shouldn’t affect anyone else.