Massive Ben 10 Revisions Part 1 (2020 Corona edition)

[Armorchompy]

1)they are not consistent

Debatable

2) Doesn't really matter most of the feats are based AP=DC moment which doesn't count

Unrelated

or else you might downgrade 90% of characters in fiction based on this

Don't tempt me

Either way PIS is a term that has no weight in this discussion so stop throwing it around.

 

[Greenshifter]

Don't tempt me

He’s not tempting you, he’s telling the truth lol. Every character above tier 9/8 who uses the environment to attack someone would get downgraded by this reasoning.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Debatable

Nothing debatable about it most of the aliens has shown much better feats than the anti feats that Zamasu braught up.

Unrelated

It is

Doesn't sound too bad

For you yes but unfortunately for most people it doesn't.

Either way PIS is a term that has no weight in this discussion so stop throwing it around.

It does

 

[Tllmbrg]

It does

Amazing argument, I'm convinced no questions asked

 

[Armorchompy]

He’s not tempting you, he’s telling the truth lol. Every character above tier 9/8 who uses the environment to attack someone would get downgraded by this reasoning.

oh no haha that sounds so awful

Nothing debatable about it most of the aliens has shown much better feats than the anti feats that Zamasu braught up.

That is, itself, up for debate, yes.

For you yes but unfortunately for most people it doesn't.

oh no haha that sounds so awful

It does

Well **** nevermind I'm convinced

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Doesn't matter he still survived it

Ignoring what I said and saying it doesn’t matter isn’t a refute.

You don't need proof this is called common sense if a tier 6 character survived being punched by a tier 5 character then this shows that said tier character was holding back just like Ssjb goku fighting krillin we are not going to assume that krillin is a tier 2 character so Goku was logically holding back.

Not every verse is like Dragon Ball dude.

We should since Vilgax still tanked the explosion sure he got weakned by it so he would downscale from the feat but not by that much.

He didn’t tank shit lol. That’s like saying a human getting hit by a bus and being left in critical condition for months is actually “tanking” it.

Nothing is wrong with it your only arguments against it are based on Pis and AP=DC moments

This almost isn’t a refute. Btw do you know what PIS even means? That only works if these anti-feats heavily affect the plot. You can remove some of these from the show and they affect nothing.

If anything I don’t need the anti feats. All of the calculations that carried the verse, pre tier 6, are all pretty bogus. Vilgax’s feat is a literal textbook example of an outlier, and I hate using outliers as an argument.

Nothing debatable about it most of the aliens has shown much better feats than the anti feats that Zamasu braught up.

Is that so? Ok show me a single feat performed by any street tier that exceeds any one of the anti feats in the first section of the blog.

Literally all the anti feats so far that you posted are Pis

Sure, the comedy section.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

So most of them need recalc now... Who will volunteer for it?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

You

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So most of them need recalc now... Who will volunteer for it?

I already have them in mind, as mentioned in the OP.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also he literally ******* says the latter half of the blog isn't meant to be taken seriously so the fact that you're doing it doesn't paint a great picture

Why does he get to decide what part of the feats should be taken seriously and what part doesn’t?

That’s not how watts of energy work. Watts use heat/electricity to achieve their AP, not force of impact.

1 Watt = 1 joule/s, which is actually what we’re tiering here.

Regardless if it’s a pocket dimension or not, it’s still a wild assumption that Big Chill made it snow across the entire Null Void.

Agree, I don’t agree with it being environmental destruction though, I think.

They’re outdated due to the new light speed standards.

Fine then. Was going for MFTL+ anyways so is pretty convenient.

No he doesn’t. It takes less frames for the beam to move and it’s still aim dodging regardless.

He still moves a visible distance in relation to the beam, not sure if aim-dodging applies to my argument.

Proof?

IIRC we can just scale people to the visible output of the attack of people with a higher tier. Him toying with Ben would be in-character since he believes no alien of Ben can defeat him anyways.

How do you know this?

The explosion was like right after Vilgax (and his ship which we didn’t see him exit) goes off-screen.

You forgot I conceded to the whole stamina thing a while ago. That’s why is agreed to back scaling from the explosion rather than up scaling. We still shouldn’t scale Vilgax to something that left him in such a weak state for such a long time

Fair

How can he skip like a stone without hitting other objects? It’s still a violation of our KE standards.

He hit the ground multiple times?

Doesn’t change my main point. Andreas was manipulating the vibrations before it detonated completely. Yet it still managed to destroy the castle, which again made him bleed.

How do you know that it couldn’t have come from internal damage exactly? He obviously didn’t completely neutralize it if it could still destroy the castle.

Getting beat up by Waybig’s fist > that hypothetical impact. It’s still worse than the Chimerian Hammer thing.

I mean sure but that’s irrelevant in such a situation since Vilgax isn’t amped there, so it has no relevance to his durability at said point. Relatively speaking Way Big’s fist hurt less than the Chimerian Hammer exploding.

If that’s really the case why would it scale to Goop’s statistics?

The AGP should be capable of restraining the people than Goop encapsulates with his body.

Heat and cold ignore durability on the site, so technically adding them as separate AP from striking strength would be pretty generous.

Ignore durability to an extent and it still gets treated like other energy-attacks last I checked. I don’t even disagree with you on this, it’s just that it doesn’t get treated that way yet.

I’m not saying every villain has to blow up Bellwood to be tier 7 or 6. I’m saying that scaling all street tiers to a singular tier 6 feat that basically killed one of the most powerful characters in the show is really stretching it when the aliens or villains have never shown feats on that level.

Fair, but you seem to more be going for “rock-level” here rather than “don’t use that calc with Vilgax”, so seems a little overkill.

Sure we got relativistic stuff to scale to.

Oki

It affects them a lot because of how bat shit crazy his calcs are lol.

Yeah I’m actually glad someone’s finally tackling them, so we can remove’em from the verse page.

It seems you two missed the part where I separated the actual anti feats from the stupid tier 9 ones. Almost like you didn’t read the entirety of the blog.

I did say skim and I also didn’t tackle the entire blog yet. But eh what’s the fundamental difference between the 2 type of anti-feats, like you just drew a line at a certain point and went everything under this is stupid?

The AP of the entire verse is built around one tier 6 feat that’s lethal to anyone that isn’t Vilgax and inflated outdated calcs. Pointing out the issues with these calcs + the anti feats, let me to this conclusion.

That seems fair, although you also know I was planning a revision to substantiate tier 6. Although I can understand if you ran out of patience.

this one

Oh it’s more extreme than you think, even Cannonbolt who no-sold the punches of everyone in the verse including Future Vilgax (who’s High 5-A but should be downgraded), got hurt by a rock falling onto him.

If the PIS is what's more consistent, then it's not PIS at all, it's just the characters being themselves at their own power level, and the outliers are PIS.

Sometimes they’ll have casual tier 7 or high into tier 8 feats for no apparent reason at all. Granted that also seems to be the case with some of the anti-feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

Why does he get to decide what part of the feats should be taken seriously and what part doesn’t?

Why do you? He literally added that last part as a joke, and he literally said it was a joke. So yeah, no shit he gets to decide if he was serious or not about saying something.

 

[Greenshifter]

Why do you? He literally added that last part as a joke, and he literally said it was a joke. So yeah, no shit he gets to decide if he was serious or not about saying something.

No I mean why are the supposed anti-feats not accepted as serious anti-feats? Maybe I went over it too fast but I don’t see a fundamental difference between the first and second section. If we’re doing this, then we better do it good you know. Otherwise it’s just mentioning tier 9 stuff to get a tier 8 downgrade through, which is more to influence public perception than anything.

 

[Armorchompy]

No I mean why are the supposed anti-feats not accepted as serious anti-feats? Maybe I went over it too fast but I don’t see a fundamental difference between the first and second section. If we’re doing this, then we better do it good you know. Otherwise it’s just mentioning tier 9 stuff to get a tier 8 downgrade through, which is more to influence public perception than anything.

They're more comedic or lower-tier anti-feats mentioned 1: for the funsies and 2: to give an idea of how the writers perceive the characters, both of which are clearly explained in the blog itself. Have you even read it?

 

[Greenshifter]

I just said I skimmed it, I don’t have time to deal with Ben 10 all day. Yet usually I’m the only one even arguing in these types of threads minus Blanco.

Anyways some of these are comedic yes, but still seems weird to put it as “this is how the writers view the aliens” and “these remind us how the verse isn’t tier 6 or 7”. Either treat them as comedic feats and disregard them or treat them as serious feats and use them for an argument, don’t do both. And like I said still seems like an arbitrary line, tier 8 crushing feats are mentioned yet tier 9 ones are “for funsies”.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Why does he get to decide what part of the feats should be taken seriously and what part doesn’t?

The non-serious ones are tier 9 and lower than the feats they perform. However the serious ones I listed are literally higher than any feat they’ve ever performed.

1 Watt = 1 joule/s, which is actually what we’re tiering here.

Joule is a universal AP thing. All joules = AP but not all AP = force of impact. So regardless, it doesn’t scale to durability or striking strength.

Agree, I don’t agree with it being environmental destruction though, I think.

Ok, I don’t think so either, but it wouldn’t scale to striking strength anyway.

Fine then. Was going for MFTL+ anyways so is pretty convenient.

He still moves a visible distance in relation to the beam, not sure if aim-dodging applies to my argument.

Less frames to move a distance = faster speed. Kevin being somewhat relative isn’t really a problem when the characters have relativistic feats.

IIRC we can just scale people to the visible output of the attack of people with a higher tier. Him toying with Ben would be in-character since he believes no alien of Ben can defeat him anyways.

I’m not gonna continue wasting time on this. The point is, it goes against our KE standards.

The explosion was like right after Vilgax (and his ship which we didn’t see him exit) goes off-screen.

Still have no way of knowing where he got hit or how far he was.

He hit the ground multiple times?

He slid across the ground, still goes against KE standards so it doesn’t matter.

How do you know that it couldn’t have come from internal damage exactly? He obviously didn’t completely neutralize it if it could still destroy the castle.

How would it be internal damage if it destroyed the castle?

I mean sure but that’s irrelevant in such a situation since Vilgax isn’t amped there, so it has no relevance to his durability at said point. Relatively speaking Way Big’s fist hurt less than the Chimerian Hammer exploding.

Regardless Ben saying he survived worse is holds no weight due to a portion of the explosion putting Vilgax on his death bed.

The AGP should be capable of restraining the people than Goop encapsulates with his body.

If this is legitimate we shouldn’t scale it to anyone since some characters struggled to lift far less.

Ignore durability to an extent and it still gets treated like other energy-attacks last I checked. I don’t even disagree with you on this, it’s just that it doesn’t get treated that way yet.

Ask a bunch of people because it’s a relatively new thing. Regardless, it doesn’t scale to dura or striking.

Fair, but you seem to more be going for “rock-level” here rather than “don’t use that calc with Vilgax”, so seems a little overkill.

Rock > all of fiction tbh. In all seriousness, I see where you’re coming from. I added those extra things to show people how low the writers stoop. Not enough people watch Ben 10 so seeing a compilation of clips like this shows them that Ben 10 has comic book levels of inconsistency.

Yeah I’m actually glad someone’s finally tackling them, so we can remove’em from the verse page.

Blame DMUA tbh

I did say skim and I also didn’t tackle the entire blog yet. But eh what’s the fundamental difference between the 2 type of anti-feats, like you just drew a line at a certain point and went everything under this is stupid?

As mentioned above the dumb ones are lower than the feats they perform while the serious anti-feats are above feats they perform.

 

[Greenshifter]

Joule is a universal AP thing. All joules = AP but not all AP = force of impact. So regardless, it doesn’t scale to durability or striking strength.

Last I checked we can still scale to energy beams, don't Star Wars characters for instance get their AP and dura from tanking blaster shots?

higher than any feat they’ve ever performed.

They as in the alien in question?

Ok, I don’t think so either, but it wouldn’t scale to striking strength anyway.

Currently you could still do Big Chill's freezing AP >= Alan's heat AP << Vilgax's dura >= Humungousaur's striking I think.

Still have no way of knowing where he got hit or how far he was.

I mean calcs still have high-balls and low-balls when assumptions need to be made.

Less frames to move a distance = faster speed. Kevin being somewhat relative isn’t really a problem when the characters have relativistic feats.

Aight.

I’m not gonna continue wasting time on this. The point is, it goes against our KE standards.

Fine, if you're certain of that.

How would it be internal damage if it destroyed the castle?

Same reason a soundwave can make your ears bleed and knock you backwards at the same time.

Regardless Ben saying he survived worse is holds no weight due to a portion of the explosion putting Vilgax on his death bed.

Agreed.

If this is legitimate we shouldn’t scale it to anyone since some characters struggled to lift far less.

LS is a different topic (from the majority of your revision at least), I honestly don't know. Could still be useful for AP though. Also keep in mind with LS not everyone has to scale to everyone.

Ask a bunch of people because it’s a relatively new thing. Regardless, it doesn’t scale to dura or striking.

I asked Wok during Easter Break how heat revisions are coming along and he said he had no idea (when that'll be finished), so unless something changed between then and now...

Ben 10 has comic book levels of inconsistency.

I never wanted to admit it because I thought DC and Marvel were worse, but considering in Ben 10 there's even no explanation for certain inconsistencies, whereas in DC and Marvel there sometimes is... you might have a point. You have stuff like Malware saying "I have enough power to conquer the universe", to then get hit in the head by a rock and feel pain despite his regenerative capabilities being so high he can regen from being turned to dust, to then match Diamondhead (who thus would also have the power to conquer the universe). That doesn't mean we should always go for the lowest end possible "because Ben 10 is inconsistent" though.

Blame DMUA tbh

OOF

As mentioned above the dumb ones are lower than the feats they perform while the serious anti-feats are above feats they perform.

Oki.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Last I checked we can still scale to energy beams, don't Star Wars characters for instance get their AP and dura from tanking blaster shots?

That all depends, but it’s probably something that needs to be looked at. Too many people use temperature feats to justify all around AP. I might be willing to take a look at characters who are carried strictly by temperature feats.

They as in the alien in question?

“They” as in all the street tiers.

Currently you could still do Big Chill's freezing AP >= Alan's heat AP << Vilgax's dura >= Humungousaur's striking I think.

It doesn’t work like that. Their “durability” is really resistance.

I mean calcs still have high-balls and low-balls when assumptions need to be made.

True but it doesn’t make it any more viable. At best it’s an outlier (ew) by definition.

Same reason a soundwave can make your ears bleed and knock you backwards at the same time.

Interesting. Either way Andreas managed to reduce the yield before it detonated, so the crumbling castle portion is what he scales to.

LS is a different topic (from the majority of your revision at least), I honestly don't know. Could still be useful for AP though. Also keep in mind with LS not everyone has to scale to everyone.

I get the LS for the anti gravity disk but in order for Goop to perform said feat, he needed to merge with the planet.

I asked Wok during Easter Break how heat revisions are coming along and he said he had no idea, so unless something changed between then and now...

Wok was the one who told me heat ≠ force, and Dargoo said heat feats shouldn’t apply to physicals.

I never wanted to admit it because I thought DC and Marvel were worse, but considering in Ben 10 there's even no explanation for certain inconsistencies, whereas in DC and Marvel there sometimes is... you might have a point. You have stuff like Malware saying "I have enough power to conquer the universe", to then get hit in the head by a rock and feel pain despite his regenerative capabilities being so high he can regen from being turned to dust, to then match Diamondhead (who thus would also have the power to conquer the universe). That doesn't mean we should always go for the lowest end possible "because Ben 10 is inconsistent" though.

See the thing is, there were 5 accepted feats that carried the AP of the verse (pre tier 6 btw) Each of those calculations had huge errors in them, which led them to being tier 8, as shown in the OP. When the characters regularly perform feats that are no higher than tier 8, while they can’t survive tier 7 things, then clearly having them be 6-B from a single super lethal feat that happens to scale to one of the strongest characters is really stretching it. It’s on the level of rule breaking at this point.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

What tiers are the old calcs getting replaced with?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What tiers are the old calcs getting replaced with?

8-C to high 8-C, at least for the usable ones.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

8-C to high 8-C, at least for the usable ones.

Can we make a calc for this and this

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Can't believe ya'll are telling me Stinkfly can't country-bust, smh

---

I can go over a lot of different reasons basing the entire series' scaling off of an explosion that put Vilgax at death's door in a super special duper form he only uses like, once or twice, isn't that great for a series spanning 200+ episodes with some pretty low consistency even for kid's cartoons standards, but yeah.

also apply common sense like this to the Reboot, please

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Can we make a calc for this and this

Eyeballing the first one is at least 8-C while the second one is most definitely 9-A. I'm making some calcs as we speak though.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Eyeballing the first one is at least 8-C while the second one is most definitely 9-A. I'm making some calcs as we speak though.

This to :

• Ultimate Echo echo Survives getting hit with a nuclear explosion that was going to take out an entire plumber space station, albeit at a significant distance

He was a little bit far from the explosion tho

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This to :

• Ultimate Echo echo Survives getting hit with a nuclear explosion that was going to take out an entire plumber space station, albeit at a significant distance

Damn, this is gonna take a little bit, lol.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

NRG Blasts a deep hole in the floor.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

NRG Blasts a deep hole in the floor.

This is something I'll definitely need help with. Is anyone willing to do this feat?

 

[KieranH10]

If we know the size of the lil guy you can probably angsize him and take off how far away NRG is from the hole, which we see at the end of the clip.

After that vaporisation would be fine for a cylindrical volume.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

An other good feat

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

If we know the size of the lil guy you can probably angsize him and take off how far away NRG is from the hole, which we see at the end of the clip.

After that vaporisation would be fine for a cylindrical volume.

I think there should be a pulverization and vaproization end due to how strict the wiki is with vaporization stuff.

 

[KieranH10]

Fair enough, I only assumed vaporisation cus NRGs beam seems to be closed to heat based than concussive too.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Heatblast also survived this

 

[Gohanblanco217]

And an other one

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Vilgax destroyed multiple large buildings

 

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense to me as well.

Also, given that several calc group, staff, and former staff members have agreed with this, the changes can probably be applied.

However, the calculations in the following blog were evaluated and accepted earlier today. Is there anything useful for scaling within it?

Ben 10 S1 Feats Calculations

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. It seems to only have been a single speed calculation.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Vilgax was unharmed by an explosion

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Vilgax was unharmed by an other explosion

 

[DMUA]

Ok so first off DC =/= AP in Ben 10, much like any other franchise in fiction. We wouldn’t have a show if every attack the hero or villain does kills literally all bystanders. For instance a techadorian multiblaster can deliver an output of 3 petawatts. Despite the resulting beam being underwhelming in DC to say the least. So this immediately discards all supposed anti-feats where a sci-fi beam causes a too small explosion for it’s actual energy output.

This was once coined by an otherwise terrible person as "AOE Fallacy Fallacy"

To say, abusing AOE Fallacy to write off a variety of feats not having anywhere near the AP as a supposed rating, when in fact that makes 0 sense for a lot of stuff.

Plenty of these feats are characters visibly putting effort into it, and there isn't any established mechanic like Ki Control to justify AOE being automatically limited. Not to mention all of the feats of just random explosives going off, not kitted out to limit area of effect. This combined with the massive list of anti-feats puts such a sentiment into question by far.

 

[DMUA]

Vilgax was unharmed by an explosion

Vilgax was unharmed by an other explosion

The former is only maybe Tier 8 and the latter is definitely so but that nowhere near justifies Tier 7 or 6

 

[Gohanblanco217]

The former is only maybe Tier 8 and the latter is definitely so but that nowhere near justifies Tier 7 or 6

How about this :

Vilgax destroyed multiple large buildings