Massive Ben 10 Revisions Part 1 (2020 Corona edition)

[Zamasu_Chan]

In the summer of 2020 I decided to downgrade Ben 10. But It was a rough start, so I upgraded them some months ago. It was cool for a time. I allowed the very thing I was against to thrive for funzies. However, It's time for this to die. So anyway, let's get started.

Flawed calculations​

Vilgax's Large Drone crashes to the Earth
This and the recalculated versions of this feat violate the rules of KE feats. It doesn’t even make a large crater in the dirt. 8-A this ain’t.

Four Arms falls out of the sky
Four Arms fell on a street. Most streets/roads are made of asphalt. So it’s not rock pulverization but concrete pulverization. Even then, I was told off site that this feat can’t be used. Four Arms fell a large distance, that’s it. Four Arms would have to weigh 11 million kg for this to be consistent.
Turns out, this feat is usable if recalculated. Yay!

XLR8 creates a tornado of water
It’s a tornado, so 90% hollowness needs to be used.

A steel tower collapses on Wildmutt
Surface area. This calc assumes every piece of the steel tower fell on Wildmutt. This isn’t true due to Ben having a lot of crawl space and the other portions of the tower hit the ground.

Vilgax jumps into the street
This is concrete, not rock. Not to mention this is blatant fragmentation.

Stinkfly shoots Vilgax into the ground
Again concrete not rock. Also, the Vilgax’x height is super inflated here. He’s 12’8 not 20 feet tall, and the measurements for the crater are wrong. It also should not scale to Stinkfly because of Vilgax's weight + the velocity.

Vilgax slams Stinkfly into a building
The pixel scaling is a little off, and the diameter is used to find the explosion, not the radius.

Vilgax destroys one of the President's faces
The faces are made of Granite, not rock. So this feat should be higher.

Vilgax survives a nuclear bomb
Vilgax disappeared for 30 years when this happened. We also never saw his condition after the nuke. Plus, he’s gotten hurt by much less.

Zs'Skayr dodges light
I was told that this is not enough evidence to be light speed.

Vilgax lifts a giant pillar
Vilgax is not 20 feet tall, and he performed this feat while amped with steroids.

Way Big throws Vilgax into space
This only works if we see the impact landing. No impact = no results. Also, Vilgax's weight is likely inflated due to his inflated height. I honestly do not get the logic of him being over 200 kg.

Humungousaur falls out of the sky
Humungousaur fell in the desert Los Soledad so that is desert soil and most definitely not rock. This is also not pulverization but displacement because we see all the sand get kicked up when Humungousaur lands. It’s better to use potential energy from him falling.

Gwen's shield withstands the explosion of the Null Void Projector
This never happened, it’s stated that Max was teleported to the Null Void not blown up. This feat literally doesn’t exist.

Big Chill makes it snow in the Null Void
Big Chill only made it snow on a portion of an asteroid. No evidence he made it snow across the entire Null Void, which is an infinite dimension btw.

Helen saves Cooper from the Ruby Ray of Ulo
Colossus Kevin dodges Chromastone's beams of light
Upchuck intercepts Chromastone's light beam
Where's the light speed evidence?

Diamondhead drops three diamond crystals on Vilgax
Chromastone and Diamondhead both are stated to be made of silicon. This also one shot Vilgax so it’s not something that scales to regular striking strength.

Negative Ultimate Humungousaur punches the ground
I have zero idea why pulverization was used when it's blatant fragmentation, and Vilgax's height is still wrong here.

Kevin dodges P'andors blast of radiation
Kevin moved before the beam was fired.

Andreas withstands a seismic bomb
This calc assumed everything for 5 square miles would have the height of the castle, which is silly and probably calc stacking. Also for some reason pulverization is used. As for the context, Andreas was able to reduce the yield of the blast by manipulating the vibrations. However, despite the yield being reduced, the seismic bomb still managed to destroy the castle. Andreas was crushed by the rubble, which managed to injure him and caused him to bleed. Besides, a weaker version of the seismic bomb did this to Diamondhead.

Malgax punches Diamondhead to Galvan B
Again Diamondhead is made of silicon, this violates our KE standards, due to the hilariously small crater, and Malgax is high 5-A. A single punch from Malgax should shatter Diamondhead.

Stinkfly flies around the world
It took almost 5 hours for Stinkfly to fly around the world. Look at the clock in the beginning of the video then look at the end.

Vilgax survives the destruction of the Chimerian Hammer
This should be straight up unusable. We have zero idea how far Vilgax was from the explosion. Vilgax was also too weak to transform for months, and needed an outside source to regain his strength. It doesn’t make sense to scale Vilgax to something he barely survived and put him on life support for several months. And about him surviving worse, he did.

Goop holds Piscciss together
Doesn’t scale to his actual LS because he had to merge with the planet to perform this feat, so he can't do this regularly.

Techadon Factory crashes to the Earth
Another violation of KE standards due to the small crater.

The Gourmands eat a planet
In order for this calc to work a single Gourmand would have to eat a city sized object at a time. This is never shown. Also clearly a cartoony feat that doesn’t fit the theme of the show.

NRG causes an Eruption
This was debunked in the comments but assuming NRG got lava from the earth’s core is bogus. He obviously melted the walkway. This doesn’t scale to striking strength anyway.

Temperature feats​

Heatblast melts an ambulance
Acidbreath melts a car
Ultimos freezes Vulkanus and Sixsix
Articguana 10k freezes Vilgax
Heatblast melts a hole in a wall
Heatblast evaporates SAM
Heatblast destroys a cave
Alan Albright melts a hole in a wall
These are temperature feats, meaning they’re only performed by heating and cooling. Though they technically qualify for AP, they don’t scale to striking strength or durability because it's not blunt force. “Tanking” these kind of feats is just resisting heat/cold.

Conclusion? With all the ginormous flaws with these important calculations, once recalculated, the feats come out at 8-C to high 8-C. I re watched the whole series and the only characters shown to **** over buildings are Vilgax and Humungousaur. I am not kidding, this is the most impressive on screen feat we have for Humungousaur and this is the most impressive on screen feat we have from the regular cast of characters as a whole. I'm genuinely confused as to how all of these were able to slide under the radar. Now, new calculations will be made soon, but for now, I just want to get this out of the way.

Btw, here's a little something to support the idea of these guys not even being tier 7. It'll probably give you a laugh too.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I was told of this privately already so of course I am agreeing with this.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I agree

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I agree. Although you considering that the craters that are created in street are 100% made of concrete is wrong. The concrete on street is no more than 1 meter deep.

 

[Hellbeast]

Chews popcorn

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I hate that they're so ******* Low, but I agree with this. Accuracy is important.

 

[Baken384]

I agree.. It hurts seeing em go like this tho

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Pain, agony.

Suffering, for those inclined

 

[Dalesean027]

Oh wow this is pretty extensive I agree

 

[DMUA]

"hey, a lot of these are old calcs I probably didn't do anything wrong here"

"... Wait, a feat with lava... I vaguely recognize that... Wait..."

Looks at the blog

Scrolls down

 

[Mr. Bambu]

A lot of these are... odd, I will say. The debunks, I mean, though a lot of the calcs are obviously wrong, too.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

A lot of these are... odd, I will say. The debunks, I mean, though a lot of the calcs are obviously wrong, too.

How so?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well. The second one, for example. I don't think "but for this to work he should weigh more" is a valid debunk given the oddities of countless other feats on the wiki. That just seems nitpicky, abnormally so for us. My other notable complaint was me misreading so I'll edit my comment to say, I find this particular debunk to be extremely odd and a bit of a reach.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Well. The second one, for example. I don't think "but for this to work he should weigh more" is a valid debunk given the oddities of countless other feats on the wiki. That just seems nitpicky, abnormally so for us. My other notable complaint was me misreading so I'll edit my comment to say, I find this particular debunk to be extremely odd and a bit of a reach.

I wanted to use the feat but was told off site not to use it ¯\(ツ)/¯. If the majority of us agree to use it then I have no problem doing so.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair enough. I think the feat is fine, personally, though I didn't check the math I must admit- so if that's biffed, my bad, I just think that's a damn bizarre "debunk".

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

This is freaking amazing, I've never been so convinced by a CRT before. I can't believe how many anti feats are in ben 10 that last link made me laugh so much.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Also guys, there's one feat that looks extremely impressive done by ultimate aggregor when he fought humungasaur, he punched him so hard that he made a shockwave that leveled all the buildings around them in a big radius, maybe it can be used. Here it is.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think the falling four arms feat is fine, even if it didn't scale to his AP it'd still scale to his dura.

But everything else is correct here.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Is this a downgrade in tier? If so, to what?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Is this a downgrade in tier? If so, to what?

To literally everything.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree...

I hope this isn't like your average Alien X CRT tho...

 

[Gohanblanco217]

This isn't good

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding Speed, the previous thread didn't really conclude. My calc hasn't gotten evaluated to so we can revise the scaling chain.

Ben 10 S1 Feats Calculations

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Is this a downgrade in tier? If so, to what?

8-C or high 8-C for now

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding the other feats, can you sort out what's actually being used in the scaling chains on the profiles?

 

[Greenshifter]

Ok so first off DC =/= AP in Ben 10, much like any other franchise in fiction. We wouldn’t have a show if every attack the hero or villain does kills literally all bystanders. For instance a techadorian multiblaster can deliver an output of 3 petawatts. Despite the resulting beam being underwhelming in DC to say the least. So this immediately discards all supposed anti-feats where a sci-fi beam causes a too small explosion for it’s actual energy output.

Vilgax is not 20 feet tall, and he performed this feat while amped with steroids.

Everyone backscales via Kevin 11.

No evidence he made it snow across the entire Null Void, which is an infinite dimension btw.

They call it a pocket dimension in AF, so it probably isn’t.

Where's the light speed evidence?

Iirc Liger did give evidence for lightspeed in his calcs, maybe it’s outdated by now but there were definitely qualifying reasons for it such as it refracting on Vilgax’s sword.

Kevin moved before the beam was fired.

He still moves relative to the beam in the same timeframe… again.

However, despite the yield being reduced, the seismic bomb still managed to destroy the castle. Andreas was crushed by the rubble, which managed to injure him and caused him to bleed. Besides, a weaker version of the seismic bomb did this to Diamondhead.

He could have been injured by the vibrations of the bomb itself. Tetrax’s vibration weapon has nothing to do with this, this is more hax than anything (and DH is weak to vibrations) and nothing states that it’s weaker than the vibration bomb.

violates our KE standards, due to the hilariously small crater

I mean his landing was like in 3 parts where he essentially skipped like a stone over water, maybe that changes things?

and Malgax is high 5-A. A single punch from Malgax should shatter Diamondhead.

And he could have simply been holding back to toy with Ben.

It took almost 5 hours for Stinkfly to fly around the world. Look at the clock in the beginning of the video then look at the end.

I mean he also delivered all those presents in that time, so it should be higher than just flying around the world in that time.

This should be straight up unusable. We have zero idea how far Vilgax was from the explosion.

I mean estimates are a thing in calcs, we know he was still in the ship.

Vilgax was also too weak to transform for months, and needed an outside source to regain his strength

You said yourself that Vilgax’s stamina could be worse in that form, nice backtracking. Seems like you only agree with the interpretation of the feat that fits your motive at a given time.

And about him surviving worse, he did.

Seems like a false comparison to make for Ben. Also like you said before, no impact = no results.

Doesn’t scale to his actual LS because he had to merge with the planet to perform this feat, so he can't do this regularly

His anti-gravity projector was capable of pulling the planet back together. At best you can say that the core system spread out it’s influence over the planet, but the energy needed to pull off said feat should come from the anti-gravity projector.

These are temperature feats, meaning they’re only performed by heating and cooling. Though they technically qualify for AP, they don’t scale to striking strength or durability because it's not blunt force. “Tanking” these kind of feats is just resisting heat/cold.

Ehm not sure actually, heat revisions didn’t go through yet I think. I don’t mind separating them, I just don’t think they’re separated just yet on-site.

I re watched the whole series and the only characters shown to **** over buildings are Vilgax and Humungousaur. I am not kidding, this is the most impressive on screen feat we have for Humungousaur and this is the most impressive on screen feat we have from the regular cast of characters as a whole.

Again DC =/= AP, it’s a kids show so you don’t expect every villain to blow up Bellwood or something. Also I’m not sure if that’s even correct, Malware (the versions that scale to regular aliens) have more impressive stuff iirc. With this reasoning you might as well downgrade all the tier 5’s for not busting a planet with every attack they do.

I'm genuinely confused as to how all of these were able to slide under the radar. Now, new calculations will be made soon, but for now, I just want to get this out of the way.

Yeah Liger’s calcs are something else. Not sure how much of this affects the current ratings though.

I’ll probably agree with the speed downgrade for now, AP not too sure, I am going to make a revision for that anyways with new feats so probably doesn’t matter too much what they end up at for now.

I’ll go over the blog later if it’s necessary.

 

[Greenshifter]

8-C or high 8-C for now

I mean this sorta seems like the “let’s ignore all the feats in the show and make fiction realistic type of treatment”. I’m not truly opposed to tier 8, it just makes me wonder what we’re actually tiering.

Oh also I’ve also noticed that crushing in Ben 10 (and by extension the other MoA shows) seems to hurt people. But I’m wondering if this ain’t some sort of LS thing rather than AP (even though their LS should also make them no-sell that probably?), cause in the same fights that they get crushed by say rocks, their punches hit harder than what the rocks falling would yield (usually the punches even being responsible for the rocks that are falling).

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Honestly the whole anti feats in the blog are based on Pis moments and AP≠DC moments the fact he mentioned NRG struggled against a car is pretty laughable when most of his other feats shows otherwise

 

[Greenshifter]

I remember this one time where Humungousaur got hit by a car that was rolling down a street and he got hit by that thing so hard he flew back into a building and made a huge ass hole in the wall. So it’s funny when people go “KE isn’t applicable because of the size of the crater” or “DC = AP” when there are times that the DC or crater is bigger than what the AP should have been.

Honestly the whole anti feats in the blog are based on Pis moments and AP≠DC moments the fact he mentioned NRG struggled against a car is pretty laughable when most of his other feats shows otherwise

Like Zamasu said, the blog will give us a good laugh.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Shit hurts. but my favorite alien aint getting downgraded so im good! pain stakingly agree.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I remember this one time where Humungousaur got hit by a car that was rolling down a street and he got hit by that thing so hard he flew back into a building and made a huge ass hole in the wall. So it’s funny when people go “KE isn’t applicable because of the size of the crater” or “DC = AP” when there are times that the DC or crater is bigger than what the AP should have been.



Like Zamasu said, the blog will give us a good laugh.

Sure it would be funny if this was in Fun and Games board but this one isn't funny at all it's simply a blatant way of downplaying a character based on Pis and DC moments so I'm against any kind of tier 8 downgrade

 

[Greenshifter]

So I’ve skimmed through the blog, Zamasu missed an anti-feat: Seems like everyone should be downgraded to 10-C for Kangaroo Commando getting defeated by a falling apple. On a more serious note though, the blog seems to suggest something more like 9-B rather than tier 8 if you take everything literally in the way that it’s supposed to happen IRL.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hurting people via crushing is AP, you're outputting enough pressure to surpass their durability.

Also he literally ******* says the latter half of the blog isn't meant to be taken seriously so the fact that you're doing it doesn't paint a great picture.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Hurting people via crushing is AP, you're outputting enough pressure to surpass their durability.

Which part are you referring to?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ok so first off DC =/= AP in Ben 10, much like any other franchise in fiction. We wouldn’t have a show if every attack the hero or villain does kills literally all bystanders. For instance a techadorian multiblaster can deliver an output of 3 petawatts. Despite the resulting beam being underwhelming in DC to say the least. So this immediately discards all supposed anti-feats where a sci-fi beam causes a too small explosion for it’s actual energy output.

That’s not how watts of energy work. Watts use heat/electricity to achieve their AP, not force of impact. So that doesn’t scale to striking strength.

Everyone backscales via Kevin 11.

There’s already a feat not too far from steroid Vilgax so this logic is sound.

They call it a pocket dimension in AF, so it probably isn’t.

Regardless if it’s a pocket dimension or not, it’s still a wild assumption that Big Chill made it snow across the entire Null Void.

Iirc Liger did give evidence for lightspeed in his calcs, maybe it’s outdated by now but there were definitely qualifying reasons for it such as it refracting on Vilgax’s sword.

They’re outdated due to the new light speed standards.

He still moves relative to the beam in the same timeframe… again.

No he doesn’t. It takes less frames for the beam to move and it’s still aim dodging regardless.

He could have been injured by the vibrations of the bomb itself. Tetrax’s vibration weapon has nothing to do with this, this is more hax than anything (and DH is weak to vibrations) and nothing states that it’s weaker than the vibration bomb.

Doesn’t change my main point. Andreas was manipulating the vibrations before it detonated completely. Yet it still managed to destroy the castle, which again made him bleed.

I mean his landing was like in 3 parts where he essentially skipped like a stone over water, maybe that changes things?

How can he skip like a stone without hitting other objects? It’s still a violation of our KE standards.

And he could have simply been holding back to toy with Ben.

Proof?

I mean he also delivered all those presents in that time, so it should be higher than just flying around the world in that time.

That much is obvious I never said it wasn’t true. I was just pointing out the timeframe shown.

I mean estimates are a thing in calcs, we know he was still in the ship.

How do you know this?

You said yourself that Vilgax’s stamina could be worse in that form, nice backtracking. Seems like you only agree with the interpretation of the feat that fits your motive at a given time.

You forgot I conceded to the whole stamina thing a while ago. That’s why is agreed to back scaling from the explosion rather than up scaling. We still shouldn’t scale Vilgax to something that left him in such a weak state for such a long time.

Seems like a false comparison to make for Ben. Also like you said before, no impact = no results.

Getting beat up by Waybig’s fist > that hypothetical impact. It’s still worse than the Chimerian Hammer thing.

His anti-gravity projector was capable of pulling the planet back together. At best you can say that the core system spread out it’s influence over the planet, but the energy needed to pull off said feat should come from the anti-gravity projector.

If that’s really the case why would it scale to Goop’s statistics?

Ehm not sure actually, heat revisions didn’t go through yet I think. I don’t mind separating them, I just don’t think they’re separated just yet on-site.

Heat and cold ignore durability on the site, so technically adding them as separate AP from striking strength would be pretty generous.

Again DC =/= AP, it’s a kids show so you don’t expect every villain to blow up Bellwood or something. Also I’m not sure if that’s even correct, Malware (the versions that scale to regular aliens) have more impressive stuff iirc. With this reasoning you might as well downgrade all the tier 5’s for not busting a planet with every attack they do.

I’m not saying every villain has to blow up Bellwood to be tier 7 or 6. I’m saying that scaling all street tiers to a singular tier 6 feat that basically killed one of the most powerful characters in the show is really stretching it when the aliens or villains have never shown feats on that level.

Yeah Liger’s calcs are something else. Not sure how much of this affects the current ratings though.

It affects them a lot because of how bat shit crazy his calcs are lol.

I’ll probably agree with the speed downgrade for now, AP not too sure, I am going to make a revision for that anyways with new feats so probably doesn’t matter too much what they end up at for now.

Sure we got relativistic stuff to scale to.

Honestly the whole anti feats in the blog are based on Pis moments and AP≠DC moments the fact he mentioned NRG struggled against a car is pretty laughable when most of his other feats shows otherwise

So I’ve skimmed through the blog, Zamasu missed an anti-feat: Seems like everyone should be downgraded to 10-C for Kangaroo Commando getting defeated by a falling apple. On a serious note though, the blog seems to suggest something more like 9-B rather than tier 8 if you take everything literally in the way that it’s supposed to happen IRL.

It seems you two missed the part where I separated the actual anti feats from the stupid tier 9 ones. Almost like you didn’t read the entirety of the blog.


The AP of the entire verse is built around one tier 6 feat that’s lethal to anyone that isn’t Vilgax and inflated outdated calcs. Pointing out the issues with these calcs + the anti feats, let me to this conclusion.

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh also I’ve also noticed that crushing in Ben 10 (and by extension the other MoA shows) seems to hurt people. But I’m wondering if this ain’t some sort of LS thing rather than AP (even though their LS should also make them no-sell that probably?), cause in the same fights that they get crushed by say rocks, their punches hit harder than what the rocks falling would yield (usually the punches even being responsible for the rocks that are falling).

this one

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Doesn’t change my main point. Andreas was manipulating the vibrations before it detonated completely. Yet it still managed to destroy the castle, which again made him bleed.

Doesn't matter he still survived it

Proof?

You don't need proof this is called common sense if a tier 6 character survived being punched by a tier 5 character then this shows that said tier character was holding back just like Ssjb goku fighting krillin we are not going to assume that krillin is a tier 2 character so Goku was logically holding back.

We still shouldn’t scale Vilgax to something that left him in such a weak state for such a long time.

We should since Vilgax still tanked the explosion sure he got weakned by it so he would downscale from the feat but not by that much.

I’m saying that scaling all street tiers to a singular tier 6 feat that basically killed one of the most powerful characters in the show is really stretching it when the aliens or villains have never shown feats on that level.

Nothing is wrong with it your only arguments against it are based on Pis and AP=DC moments

It seems you two missed the part where I separated the actual anti feats from the stupid tier 9 ones. Almost like you didn’t read the entirety of the blog.

Literally all the anti feats so far that you posted are Pis

 

[Armorchompy]

"Plot-Induced Stupidity, or PIS for short, is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot"

If the PIS is what's more consistent, then it's not PIS at all, it's just the characters being themselves at their own power level, and the outliers are PIS.

 

[KieranH10]

This makes sense to me. Sad to see them go.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

"Plot-Induced Stupidity, or PIS for short, is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot"

If the PIS is what's more consistent, then it's not PIS at all, it's just the characters being themselves at their own power level, and the outliers are PIS.

1)they are not consistent most of the aliens has shown much better feats than the anti feats that Zamasu braught up.


2) Doesn't really matter most of the feats are based AP=DC moments which doesn't count or else you might downgrade 90% of characters in fiction based on this