Marvel Negative Zone

[Vasco]

So, basically, in Issue #3, we have a mention of a thing called "the Cascade," where "infinite dimensions converge." Seems to be referring to parallel realms without more context, but in Issue #4, the "Voyager" mentioned in the title of the comic shows up, and he wants the main character's soul, which he says is because it will serve as fuel for his ascent into "the Cascade of dimensions above." When the protagonist asks what he means by that, another character explains that he's talking about is "The... next plane up, Heaven. Whatever you want to call it."

Now I've finally read the book though still doubt if it's canon to mainstream universe.

The Cascade of dimensions were never really shown to be transcendent, Heaven was never shown to be transcendent of the mortal universe.

Then at the end of it story, he finally gives his soul to the Voyager, and we get a description of the latter's ascension into the aforementioned Cascade:

"...It passes Celestial Pagodas whose balconies and hanging gardens drip sumptuous fruit earthward... It passes ever-increasing spheres and sedimentary layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe... It passes oceans of higher dimensions until, as my split second ability to comprehend what I am seeing contracts... The Voyager bursts, scattering a chorus of voices

."So, it seems the infinite dimensions that the "Cascade" here comprehends are indeed higher dimensions. They're even described as "layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe," and their amount is described as "ever-increasing," which supports the first scan saying that the Cascade is where infinite dimensions converge, and shows (Alongside it being described as "the Cascade of dimensions") that said dimensions are indeed the layers that the Voyager pierces through on his way to it.

I doubt we should accept such a statement from a normal human who was even asking questions about the Cascade of dimensions several pages back before he made this statement of a being, and his statement seem flowery.

Also Sam wrote a story on the incident with the voyager and all and it's stated to be flowery in some places in his story about it.

 

[GyroNutz]

Can somebody summarise what is still currently in contention?

 

[Deagonx]

Can somebody summarise what is still currently in contention?

The first half of the OP is the part that is still in contention. If I had to broadly summarize, it's a question of whether this scan is sufficient to assert infinite spatial dimensionality. The evidence for it is scans that show the FF experiencing shifts in their spatial dimensionality in the "distortion zone" that separates the Negative Zone (where the Crossroads is located) and the main universe.

The evidence against it is the fact that the Crossroads is also a gateway to infinite universes/dimensions and there are many scans that refer to it this way, which some (me) feel is indicative of the act that this scan sould be interpreted as referring to universes, not spatial dimensions.

 

[LuciferX]

I'm currently reading children of the Voyager, and I wanna ask is it truly canon to mainstream universe?

Where do even cascade exist in Marvel Cosmos?

 

[Vasco]

Where do even cascade exist in Marvel Cosmos?

Thats the funny thing, I didn't see anything about it in marvel database but I do know it's nature seems similar to Crossroads of infinity.

 

[LuciferX]

Thats the funny thing, I didn't see anything about it in marvel database but I do know it's nature seems similar to Crossroads of infinity.

Absolutely, Marvel has tons of places/objects connects infinite realities i.e. Nexus of all realities (M'kraan Crystal, Man thing's nexus, Forever Gate, Otherworld),Crossroads, Yggdrasil Main Root and now Cascade. not suprised at all, all infinite dimensions claims evolve with such things.

 

[Antvasima]

Absolutely, Marvel has tons of places/objects connects infinite realities i.e. Nexus of all realities (M'kraan Crystal, Man thing's nexus, Forever Gate, Otherworld),Crossroads, Yggdrasil Main Root and now Cascade. not suprised at all, all infinite dimensions claims evolve with such things.

Yes, except for Otherworld and Yggdrasil, which are differently displayed and handled from the others, all of the above-mentioned nexuses have been used for transportation across the Marvel multiverse, and that is pretty much it.

 

[LuciferX]

Yes, except for Otherworld and Yggdrasil, which are differently displayed and handled from the others, all of the above-mentioned nexuses have been used for transportation across the Marvel multiverse, and that is pretty much it.

Yeah. I meant Yggdrasil is literary plot device for norse gords like odin, which reponsible for his multiversal wide feats,connecting 10 realms and beyond.

 

[Antvasima]

The Nexus of Realities, the Crossroads Dimension, the Forever Gate, and Captain Britain's lighthouse were all presented as being used for multiversal transportation, as far as I recall, though.

 

[LuciferX]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here exactly? I would still greatly appreciate responses from @Ultima_Reality and other staff members regarding my earlier post.

Anyway, a question if I may:

During the extremely prominent "Time Runs Out" and following "Secret War" events written by Jonathan Hickman, it was very explicitly established that in the current version of Marvel Comics cosmology the entire Marvel multiverse was possible to destroy by simply colliding a finite number of regular universes against each other, and that it could be recreated by Franklin Richards and the Molecule Man creating new universes and tying them together, which also explicitly happened on a tier 2-B scale.

After that event, the writer Al Ewing has introduced several higher levels of existence that were retroactively established to have existed within previous iterations of the Marvel Comics cosmology, if I have understood correctly, but even taken together, I do not think that they seem to exceed a tier High 1-C scale at best.

Again, all of these concepts were as explicitly and prominently displayed and outlined in an as official manner as Marvel Comics stories ever reach, so they are not contingent on any speculation or easily dismissed at all as far as I am aware.

As such, should we split the cosmology to the old at least High 1-B structure explicitly outlined in Doctor Strange #21 published in 1990, and the new (High 1-C?) cosmology retconned into being by Jonathan Hickman and Al Ewing, with the House of Ideas and the One Above All scaling to being above the highest peak that either of them reached, as it is what officially continuously creates (and recreates and redefines) it all?

 

[Alonik]

So what should we do here exactly? I would still greatly appreciate responses from @Ultima_Reality and other staff members regarding my earlier post.

About Hickman's nothing needs to be done, because you always bring this up in any Marvel thread and it is always debunked, as can be seen in Owen Reece's profile updated by Confluctor, there are justifications there that debunk this.

Franklin richards traveling through a finite number of universes and creating them in Fantastic Four (2018) does not mean that the multiverse is finite and thus 2-B, besides this comic you use it's not even written by Hickman.

 

[Antvasima]

How has the very explicit fact that the entire Marvel multiverse was destroyed by all of the 3-dimensional universes bumping into each other been properly debunked? I do not even think that it is possible to debunk, given how extremely prominent these two storylines were in comparison to almost all other stories across Marvel Comics history.

Also, as far as I recall, Hickman wrote the final story of Secret Wars where Franklin Richards, the Molecule Man, and Reed Richards were together shown to recreate the Marvel multiverse one universe at a time. A later Fantastic Four story written by Dan Slott verified this, and stated and showed that Franklin Richards exhausted his powers from creating over a thousand universes during this ordeal, if I remember correctly, but that is all.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, a question if I may:

During the extremely prominent "Time Runs Out" and following "Secret War" events written by Jonathan Hickman, it was very explicitly established that in the current version of Marvel Comics cosmology the entire Marvel multiverse was possible to destroy by simply colliding a finite number of regular universes against each other, and that it could be recreated by Franklin Richards and the Molecule Man creating new universes and tying them together, which also explicitly happened on a tier 2-B scale.

After that event, the writer Al Ewing has introduced several higher levels of existence that were retroactively established to have existed within previous iterations of the Marvel Comics cosmology, if I have understood correctly, but even taken together, I do not think that they seem to exceed a tier High 1-C scale at best.

Again, all of these concepts were as explicitly and prominently displayed and outlined in an as official manner as Marvel Comics stories ever reach, so they are not contingent on any speculation or easily dismissed at all as far as I am aware.

As such, should we split the cosmology to the old at least High 1-B structure explicitly outlined in Doctor Strange #21 published in 1990, and the new (High 1-C?) cosmology retconned into being by Jonathan Hickman and Al Ewing, with the House of Ideas and the One Above All scaling to being above the highest peak that either of them reached, as it is what officially continuously creates (and recreates and redefines) it all?

How has the very explicit fact that the entire Marvel multiverse was destroyed by all of the 3-dimensional universes bumping into each other been properly debunked? I do not even think that it is possible to debunk, given how extremely prominent these two storylines were in comparison to almost all other stories across Marvel Comics history.

Also, as far as I recall, Hickman wrote the final story of Secret Wars where Franklin Richards, the Molecule Man, and Reed Richards were together shown to recreate the Marvel multiverse one universe at a time. A later Fantastic Four story written by Dan Slott verified this, and stated and showed that Franklin Richards exhausted his powers from creating over a thousand universes during this ordeal, if I remember correctly, but that is all.

So about this very important issue...

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @LuciferX @Excel616 @DarkDragonMedeus @Sandman31

Would any of you be willing to help out with a cosmology-splitting project please? I would very greatly appreciate the help.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think I'm the best informed to properly be the one who carries out the job, other than the approval having my support.

 

[Deagonx]

Would any of you be willing to help out with a cosmology-splitting project please? I would very greatly appreciate the help.

I also don't know enough about Marvel to be able to recognize where the best splits would be. Having read Gaiman, Carey, DeMatteis, and the main DC stories by Morrison and Snyder, it was easier to recognize the clear differences. My knowledge of Marvel is a lot more limited. But I am helping Eficiente with some things now.

 

[Firestorm808]

It would be best to continue cataloging the various cosmology statements to see if there are any trends or patterns.

I can move my blog to a sandbox for us later today.

 

[Antvasima]

I also don't know enough about Marvel to be able to recognize where the best splits would be. Having read Gaiman, Carey, DeMatteis, and the main DC stories by Morrison and Snyder, it was easier to recognize the clear differences. My knowledge of Marvel is a lot more limited. But I am helping Eficiente with some things now.

I think that the easiest split would be between the classic cosmology outlined in Doctor Strange issue #21, 1990, and the cosmology after Hickman and Ewing retconned and revised it.

 

[Antvasima]

It would be best to continue cataloging the various cosmology statements to see if there are any trends or patterns.

I can move my blog to a sandbox for us later today.

Thank you very much for helping out. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

How has the very explicit fact that the entire Marvel multiverse was destroyed by all of the 3-dimensional universes bumping into each other been properly debunked? I do not even think that it is possible to debunk, given how extremely prominent these two storylines were in comparison to almost all other stories across Marvel Comics history.

I plan to make a thread to address this shortly, actually. After this one is finished of course. Don't want to clutter the forum up with Marvel revisions.

I'll respond to the above in a bit, btw. Sorry for the wait.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

Can you message me in private about it first please? So we get on roughly the same page rather than any rushed and stressed public arguments with many other members butting in to interrupt?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Can you message me in private about it first please? So we get on roughly the same page rather than any rushed public arguments with many other members butting in to interupt?

Certainly. One moment.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

It could take a while for me to reply though, as I have lots of wiki patrolling work as well.

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You're right, let me clarify my intentions. I am not arguing for the impossibility of your interpretation, nor suggesting that such an interpretation is definitively incompatible with the information we have. Rather, I am saying that it seems more plausible, in my opinion, to think the aforementioned phrase referred to the gateway to other dimensions, not spatiality, because a jump from a single digit number of dimensions to infinite dimensions is -- independent of any other context -- something to be regarded with a level of scrutiny, and because the crucial phrase that this is built upon can feasibly refer to the defining quality of the Crossroads, that is definitively known and repeatedly referred to, whereas this notion of infinite spatial dimensionality is not as rock-solid.

I don't think it necessarily is, since there really isn't anything that makes infinite-dimensional space more special than 4-dimensional space from an objective standpoint, so Reed going from experiencing a small part of the realm (A 4-D universe) to the entirety of the realm (An infinite-dimensional universe) really is nothing to be seen as odd. I do understand that the statement referring to infinite realms is feasible, yes, but the context provided by the preceding panel (As well as others I've shown, as you can see by the last response to you in this post) and the points I've made prior make the option that it is referring to spatial dimensionality just as feasible, in my view.

For the matter, I would not particularly mind placing an asterisk in this statement, but the fact that "limitless dimensions" are mentioned exactly right after a statement mentioning Reed going upwards from 3-D space to 4-D space makes it difficult to dismiss the latter option. Cases like this, of course, are why the "possibly" modifier exists on profiles. Though as mentioned before, due to the nature of the Crossroads, all statements of infinite dimensionality in the verse feed back to it in a sense, so Option 2 is made more solid by their presence, I would say.

Do we know that the Crossroads definitively contain more than 3 spatial dimensions? If so, is that based on the idea of the distortion area being the same thing as the Crossroads? If so, see the end of this post as there is something to iron out with that. I say "alleged" only because the matter is currently being discussed, not with regard to the dimensional shift at all, but specifically to infinite dimensionality.

Hah, I misread your post. My bad on that one.

Anyway, we do, yes. See these scans, for reference. Subspace, the Crossroads of Infinity and the Distortion Area are all one thing (Also shown by how the Crossroads are described as accessed at "The edge of subspace")

I don't think they need to be contained within the Crossroads itself in order for the phrase "world of limitless dimensions" to be used in reference to the dimensions that the Crossroads provides access to. I can see the perspective that it is mildly awkward from a linguistic standpoint, but not pressing enough to really matter IMO.

Of course, on its own, that is not particularly binding, but I would say it is relevant when taking into account the wider context that the previous page presents.

However, I noticed in this scan you provided that the Crossroads is described as a black hole in the center of the Negative Zone that contains a gateway to other dimension. This same scan describes the "distortion area" as an interface between the Negative Zone and our universe. I know part of your argument was the scan that implied that the Crossroads and distortion area were identical, but this scan seems to contradict such an interpretation. If that were indeed the case, would that change the main points of your argument? I am not sure how critically the "Distortion Area = Crossroads" piece fits into the main point you were making.

That was meant to be supporting evidence for the Crossroads of Infinity being indeed tied to spatial dimensions, outside of Fantastic Four #51 alone. The thing about this is that Subspace / the Crossroad is a connection point for several realms, so it is an interface between regular space and the Negative Zone, but also between various other universes.

I see. but, Is it possible to say "n" number of dimensions exist without perceiving them? It's not a speculation and the first time he discovered negative zone. If so, reed must upgrade to High 1-B

As said prior, that line of thinking is pretty irrelevant because old comics often crank "Tell, don't show" to the max and have characters describe exactly what is happening to them in very dramatic fashion. Reed's statements in this scenario are meant to be taken as factual, and that's all there really is to it. By that logic, all of what he says is unreliable (The Crossroads being a junction to everywhere, the initial Distortion Area being 4-dimensional, and so on), which we of course know is not the case.

Cascade being above heaven doesn't prove they are infinite spatial dimensions.

First we have to look into the credibility of the statement. It was said by Herriret, a human magic user when she explained about the world to Sam.
we can guess she is an omniscient person like reed richards.

When did I ever say that the Cascade being above Heaven is the reason for them being infinite spatial dimensions? The fact you say this to begin with seems to indicate you're either not reading what I say or are deliberately misrepresenting it. Harriet's status also doesn't really disprove her credibility, especially given that she herself is who introduces the Voyager and explains what he is to the main character. These concepts are all information talked about in in-universe mystic circles, and she is taking it from those sources.

Converge mean meet at one place, higher dimensions meet at one place? what does that even mean? 2D,3D,4D,infiniteD meet at one place?

Exactly that, yes. Higher-dimensional realms are places in the exact same way 3-dimensional spaces are. There being a place in which they all converge doesn't really disprove that they are higher-dimensional.

Voyager passing oceans of higher dimensions have nothing to do with cascade. there is no evidence it was describing about cascade.

Layers of heaven are a whole different thing. It's above heaven. Heaven is not Cascade. Layers in heaven don't refer to dimensions.

Yes it does, and yes it is. What the Voyager wanted was to reunite with the spark of himself contained in Sam so he could fuel his ascent to the "Cascade of dimensions above," which Harriet then directly states is Heaven. At the end, the Voyager finally gets his essence back, and Sam then describes his ascension to his native realm. I also don't understand the last bit; why would them being higher layers disprove that they are higher dimensions? Especially when they are called higher dimensions outright, with nothing going against that label.

In guidebook, it says he transcended earth dimension/reality and then ascended through reality and reality, implies what author meant by "the ocean of higher dimensions" are just higher realms. ocean of higher dimensions def not about dimensions in casacade because he wanted to go to his realm, why do he pass his own realm? doesn't make sense.

See above. The evidence points to the Cascade being the plane that is above those higher dimensions, where they all converge, and the Voyager, during his ascension to it, passes through said higher dimensions.

Btw, evidence for QS of those dimensions in cascade? (If I assume, what you said was true) None

Evidence for QS of those dimensions mentioned by reed richards? None.

The higher dimensions accessed by the Voyager are explicitly described as "layers of heaven that encrust the tiny shell of this universe." To quote the Tiering System FAQ:

One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

As mentioned before, the Crossroads of Infinity just have all the dimensionality statements in the verse feed back into them, due to their nature, so, the above is also a response to the second line there. Nevermind the fact that infinite-dimensional space would, by default, fit the "The higher-dimensional space in question needs to be fully-sized" requirement, since an infinite number of dimensions would result in infinite volume (Unless your measurement in each dimension is 1, which is obviously not the case here)

Now I've finally read the book though still doubt if it's canon to mainstream universe.

The Cascade of dimensions were never really shown to be transcendent, Heaven was never shown to be transcendent of the mortal universe.

First point seems like an odd argument. Why, exactly, would it not be canon? Especially since it's acknowledged in the official handbook.

Second point is addressed by the above. Higher-dimensional spaces embedding lower-dimensional ones within themselves, as the higher dimensions leading to the Cascade do (They're described as "encrusting the tiny shell of this universe") is generally enough for them to qualify for Tier 1.

I doubt we should accept such a statement from a normal human who was even asking questions about the Cascade of dimensions several pages back before he made this statement of a being, and his statement seem flowery.

The statement is valid because it is done as Sam establishes a direct link with the Voyager and starts to share his memories and thoughts, as well as his perception of reality. The latter of which you can see by how he describes his mind as "dilating" (Growing larger) and himself as gaining "new senses" that allow him to keep track of the Voyager's ascension back home. In fact, his ability to comprehend what it is that he is seeing only terminates ("contracts," as he puts it) when the Voyager finally ascends back to the Cascade and their link is severed.

I also don't see how the statements being slightly poetical in their wording means anything. Verbiage being flowery doesn't necessarily mean that it is entirely comprised of overstatements, and the straightforward nature of the monologue itself here lends to that.

 

[LuciferX]

As said prior, that line of thinking is pretty irrelevant because old comics often crank "Tell, don't show" to the max and have characters describe exactly what is happening to them in very dramatic fashion. Reed's statements in this scenario are meant to be taken as factual, and that's all there really is to it. By that logic, all of what he says is unreliable (The Crossroads being a junction to everywhere, the initial Distortion Area being 4-dimensional, and so on), which we of course know is not the case.

Other info can be backuped by other comics and guidebooks while your infinte D interpretation CAN'T. Reed found it for the first time we can't be assure of the terminology used, when something discovered for the first time. Good excuse.

See above. The evidence points to the Cascade being the plane that is above those higher dimensions, where they all converge, and the Voyager, during his ascension to it, passes through said higher dimensions.

Well. But I'm saying that they maybe higher dimensions but not 6D, 7D, Inf D but Infinite higher realms what connects in the cascade. literary in guidebook says interconnected dimensions. Simply, Higher dimensional realms which are infinite not infinite spatial dimensions.

 

[Vasco]

First point seems like an odd argument. Why, exactly, would it not be canon? Especially since it's acknowledged in the official handbook.

Second point is addressed by the above. Higher-dimensional spaces embedding lower-dimensional ones within themselves, as the higher dimensions leading to the Cascade do (They're described as "encrusting the tiny shell of this universe") is generally enough for them to qualify for Tier 1.

Nothing about that book makes it seem canon to mainstream universe, literally nothing, it's acknowledge doesn't necessarily mean it's part of the mainstream marvel.

Still skeptical since he said it flowery (it passes Celestial PAGODAS whose balconies and hanging gardens drip sumptuous fruit EARTHWARD...it passes every incressing spheres and sedimentary LAYERS of HEAVENS that encrust the tiny SHELL of this universe) besides how are to take his statement literally when the Voyager said he needs to consume his spirit to ascend into a Cascade of dimensions above and then said Sam would die once he gets reabsorbed, yet Sam is talking about his ascension into higher dimensions without being reabsorbed or dead, seems flowery and contradictory.

The statement is valid because it is done as Sam establishes a direct link with the Voyager and starts to share his memories and thoughts, as well as his perception of reality. The latter of which you can see by how he describes his mind as "dilating" (Growing larger) and himself as gaining "new senses" that allow him to keep track of the Voyager's ascension back home.

Makes sense since he got the Voyager dreams and memories and kinda checks about about the higher dimensions existing but wouldn't that be 1-B? The higher dimensions were never called infinite.

The Cascade was simply called a place were infinite dimensions converge doesn't necessarily mean the infinite dimensions are all higher dimensions.

I also don't see how the statements being slightly poetical in their wording means anything. Verbiage being flowery doesn't necessarily mean that it is entirely comprised of overstatements, and the straightforward nature of the monologue itself here lends to that.

From my short stay on this forum whenever words are actually flowery they tend not be used or accepted, and it's stated some places in the story are indeed flowery, if it actually is that straightforward like you see it to be this debate would have ended long ago.

 

[Antvasima]

Nothing about that book makes it seem canon to mainstream universe, literally nothing, it's acknowledge doesn't necessarily mean it's part of the mainstream marvel.

Can somebody tell me which story that these scans were taken from please? They do seem out of place for the Marvel Comics superhero setting, and we should not scale from any comic book ever published by Marvel regardless if they are officially canon or not.

From my short stay on this forum whenever words are actually flowery they tend not be used or accepted, and it's stated some places in the story are indeed flowery, if it actually is that straightforward like you see it to be this debate would have ended long ago.

That is correct, yes. Marvel Comics writers have used a massive amount of hyperbolic flowery language to get impressionable younger readers more interested in what is going on. They need to be connected to actual evidence to be considered reliable.

 

[Alonik]

That is correct, yes. Marvel Comics writers have used a massive amount of hyperbolic flowery language to get impressionable younger readers more interested in what is going on. They need to be connected to actual evidence to be considered reliable.

From my short stay on this forum whenever words are actually flowery they tend not be used or accepted, and it's stated some places in the story are indeed flowery, if it actually is that straightforward like you see it to be this debate would have ended long ago.

It's not even said that exactly in the story, it's like any of you presenting our tiering system in some college and they say it's very hyperbolic and very flowery, because it has a very exaggerated fictional tone like entities that can be very big and destroy various things, just because the person doesn't want to think within the same scope, and the statement of that doesn't come to contradict what actually happened. I mean, what college is going to believe someone who wrote down his spiritual experience being abducted by a cosmic entity in marvel? People wouldn't believe it even if someone said he was Spider-Man's best friend, even though they are. It is the same as a human finding the existence of Gods in Marvel an exaggeration and saying that they are false Gods, Vasco just failed to interpret the story, and took it too literally.

 

[Antvasima]

I am just saying that flowery hyperbolic language is a very poor gauge to base the entire cosmological scaling on for one of our most popular featured verses, especially given that this verse easily qualifies as one of the most inconsistent ever created, due to the sheer enormous amounts of stories and many hundreds of writers with approaches that often strongly contradict each other.

As such, we always need concrete explicit evidence, so we do not turn our Marvel Comics statistics even more extremely unreliable than they already are, regardless if some of our members likely want to inflate the tiers as much as possible in some sort of self-perceived competition for power levels rather than accuracy.

 

[Vasco]

Can somebody tell me which story that these scans were taken from please?

Children of the Voyager.

They do seem out of place for the Marvel Comics superhero setting, and we should not scale from any comic book ever published by Marvel regardless if they are officially canon or not.

Yes it does, I agree and this book doesn't look canon to mainstream universe.

It's not even said that exactly in the story, it's like any of you presenting our tiering system in some college and they say it's very hyperbolic and very flowery, because it has a very exaggerated fictional tone like entities that can be very big and destroy various things, just because the person doesn't want to think within the same scope, and the statement of that doesn't come to contradict what actually happened. I mean, what college is going to believe someone who wrote down his spiritual experience being abducted by a cosmic entity in marvel? People wouldn't believe it even if someone said he was Spider-Man's best friend, even though they are. It is the same as a human finding the existence of Gods in Marvel an exaggeration and saying that they are false Gods, Vasco just failed to interpret the story, and took it too literally.

It literally is, different analogy also, the tone of that book wasn't really big, it only used larger flowery grammar in #4 which is obvious andwas later confirmed when turned into a story, except the person who took his work is literally a sister to the claimed most powerful witch so yes she has no reason not to believe since she herself introduced him to her sister.
Also, I wasn't even talking about the statement of Sam being contradictory but that of the Voyager which i clarified above.

 

[LuciferX]

Yes it does, I agree and this book doesn't look canon to mainstream universe.

Where do even Cascade exist in cosmos? who scales to it? I don't think Voyager is High 1-B being, him passing through higher dimensions can be contradicted by guidebook saying he passed reality by reality, which I guess "oceans of higher dimensions" meant higher realms in the context.

 

[Vasco]

Where do even Cascade exist in cosmos? who scales to it?

It's just called a place were infinite dimensions converge, no one.

I don't think Voyager is High 1-B being, him passing through higher dimensions can be contradicted by guidebook saying he passed reality by reality, which I guess "oceans of higher dimensions" meant higher realms in the context.

Voyager isn't High 1-B probably just 1-B to move through an unknown amount of higher dimensions.

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Vasco @Deagonx

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Vasco]

We're still waiting on Ultima response, his probably busy.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. We have a conversation in private, so it could take a while, as we likely have to put this discussion on hold in the meantime.

 

[Lewis]

Sorry that he came to the staff's forum. I just want to see the progress of this thread. Bump

 

[Gasper]

One thing i want to address here is that seeing infinite dimensions dosen't mean you are infinite dimensional nor is it enough for High 1-B. So please don't use that argument anymore because it's silly as hell.

Also i don't see why Crossroads of infinity can't connect both universes and dimensions at the same time.