Marvel Cosmology Downgrade

[Antvasima]

Oblivion doesn't scale to Chaos King. Mikaboshi, the Japanese god, is what he scales above. Chaos King got his powers by absorbing others and has nothing to do with Oblivion.

The Chaos King was explicitly stated to be just a tiny aspect of Oblivion.

 

[Antvasima]

Oblivion just doesn't have the ability to destroy the Multiverse. Its as simple as that. Last time he tried, Infinity kicked his ass inside his own realm.

That was just the universal avatars/m-bodies of each of them, or at least that is the best explanation that we can find to explain Marvel Comics' inconsistencies in this regard.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

The Chaos King was explicitly stated to be just a tiny aspect of Oblivion.

Mikaboshi more like. And you have to understand the scaling in context of Chaos War. The whole point of Chaos War was that CK was absorbing the powers of Gods and other entities to bloster his own. This has nothing to do with Oblivion. The concept of Oblivion's "avatars" becoming independent if not stronger is nothing new. Maelstorm nearly succeeded in usurping Oblivion despite being his "Avatar".

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that the evidence seems quite explicit:

https://imgur.io/fD8B3Ed?r

Marvel Cosmic Analysis: Oblivion & Chaos King

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Deleted member 2530]

That was just the universal avatars/m-bodies of each of them, or at least that is the best explanation that we can find to explain Marvel Comics' inconsistencies in this regard.

Eh. The fight was in Oblivion's realm. Though Infinity appears there because of the Infinity Force Quasar had I am not sure there is anything suggesting them being Universal M-bodies in the comics at least.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Well, I think that the evidence seems quite explicit:

https://imgur.io/fD8B3Ed?r

Marvel Cosmic Analysis: Oblivion & Chaos King

vsbattles.fandom.com

I shall read it later.

 

[Antvasima]

Eh. The fight was in Oblivion's realm. Though Infinity appears there because of the Infinity Force Quasar had I am not sure there is anything suggesting them being Universal M-bodies in the comics at least.

Well, Mark Gruenwald is long dead and gone, so his version of Marvel's cosmology has long since likely turned very outdated.

 

[Antvasima]

I shall read it later.

Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Well, Mark Gruenwald is long dead and gone, so his version of Marvel's cosmology has long since likely turned very outdated.

I know that Quasar has that but eh I should just drop this. Since, I was talking more in terms of relation between the Abstracts.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[LuciferX]

He isn't beyond space-time but concepts of space and time

still doesn't scale to 1-A or low 1-A cuz even Lucifer (dc) is beyond all def of space/time.

 

[LuciferX]

Oblivion doesn't scale to Chaos King. Mikaboshi, the Japanese god, is what he scales above. Chaos King got his powers by absorbing others and has nothing to do with Oblivion.

It was stated its an aspect of him.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

It was stated its an aspect of him.

Ok.

 

[Alonik]

Oblivion doesn't scale to Chaos King. Mikaboshi, the Japanese god, is what he scales above. Chaos King got his powers by absorbing others and has nothing to do with Oblivion.

Looks like we're going to have a great job, only Marvel knowledgeable members

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Looks like we're going to have a great job, only Marvel knowledgeable members

I mean you have done a great job defending High 1B.

 

[Vasco]

What makes you think he is higher dimensional than Eternity? His feats certainly don't show him being stronger than the other abstracts. Unless of course, you just mean destroying the Multiverse without fighting the Abstracts.

His literally the Void beyond the multiverse and it's in his profile

It is everything outside the small multiverse which contains infinite numbers of higher infinitely superior dimensions, many with reality-fiction differences. Far more powerful than other conceptual entities of Marvel, including Death.[12] The Chaos King is only an infinitesimally small aspect of Oblivion.[13] Even a smaller manifestation of him is bigger than the Marvel Multiverse - aka Multiversal Eternity.

No matter what proof you check Oblivion is beyond the Multiverse.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

His literally the Void beyond the multiverse and it's in his profile

Him being Void doesn't really matter. The creation and destruction of the Multiverse isn't in his control.

Anyway, lets just drop it.

 

[Antvasima]

Looks like we're going to have a great job, only Marvel knowledgeable members

Would you be willing to help @Eficiente with his Marvel Comics revision work research, @Alonik? Your help would be very appreciated.

I would also appreciate if you are willing to review this content revision thread regarding which High 1-B or Low 1-A scans that have been legitimately debunked and should be removed as justifications from our pages.

 

[Vasco]

Him being Void doesn't really matter. The creation and destruction of the Multiverse isn't in his control.

Anyway, lets just drop it.

His an infinite void being the multiverse and iirc it was stated all was an illusion to him.

Okay then my bad already typed it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is imperative to contextualize the statement “1-A is unbounded by dimensions” in order to accurately interpret its meaning.

While it is not uncommon for statements to be open to multiple interpretations, the statement in question may assume a different meaning depending on the context in which it is used. For example, when situated within a high 1-B hierarchy, the statement may be understood to imply that the concept of space-time is not constrained by dimensions.

Therefore, it is crucial to consider the context in which the statement is made in order to fully grasp its intended meaning.

 

[Gasper]

His an infinite void being the multiverse and iirc it was stated all was an illusion to him.

Okay then my bad already typed it.

No, he stated the void he was in was illusion of his true void and not that he sees multiverse as an illusion or anything like that.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Don't new rules says transcending space time isn't 1-A? Have seen a lot of characters scaled to 1-A via using that, seems to be too vague to jump into high tiers.

I don't know why Obvilion need avatars/aspects just to destroy a multiverse? (like Chaos King)

Iirc, chaos king is an aspect of obv, and aspects got most of power of true form, but still can't even destroy a universe with easily.

1-A obv seems fuzzy.

Mikaboshi was not powerful on his own. He needed to kill several pantheon gods and absorb their power to destroy the universe/Multiverse. Chaos war was a messed up storyline so I won’t comment on it .

In other storylines we literally see Other/scarrier threatening to destroying the infinite universes in their clash and it was considered as superior to chaos war event.

2

The realm beyond Eternity is shown to be 1A which oblivion embodies according to multiple sources fr current comics.

1
2
Eternity embodies the totality of the multiverse on all lvls . So he be solid high 1B -low 1A
3

 

[LuciferX]

@Antvasima Can you please close this thread?

 

[Gasper]

@Antvasima Can you please close this thread?

Why

 

[Vasco]

Why

Yes, it is very messy.

Is somebody willing to read through it and write down the reasoning for us to disregard certain scans that we currently scale from in a single post here please? If it is good enough, it can be reposted in an entirely new content revision thread that can then be linked to here.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it is very messy.

Is somebody willing to read through it and write down the reasoning for us to disregard certain scans that we currently scale from in a single post here please? If it is good enough, it can be reposted in an entirely new content revision thread that can then be linked to here.

Well, the request that I made above had not been carried out yet.

 

[AndrewBennet]

What do you guys think ? High 1B multi Eternity is only shown in single issue of Demattis writings . In rest of the Marvel comics he is more often referred as 2A entity with infinite universes inside himself.
Even Other and Scarier who were considered as the bigger threat than Chaos king were only about to destroy the physical universes .
Beyonders were literally killed by the destruction of few million regular universes
The current 8 Multiverses are formed from single universe (First Firmament) with Celestials seperating it. (Retcon)

Don't you think Marvel needs a revision ?

 

[Hasty12345]

Don't you think Marvel needs a revision ?

it appears so

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Was the scans in Jean's profile regarding the Phoenix Force ever checked yet? There should be supporting evidence for 1-A at least.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you guys think ? High 1B multi Eternity is only shown in single issue of Demattis writings . In rest of the Marvel comics he is more often referred as 2A entity with infinite universes inside himself.
Even Other and Scarier who were considered as the bigger threat than Chaos king were only about to destroy the physical universes .
Beyonders were literally killed by the destruction of few million regular universes
The current 8 Multiverses are formed from single universe (First Firmament) with Celestials seperating it. (Retcon)

Don't you think Marvel needs a revision ?

Probably, yes. I personally think that the current incernation of the entire cosmology is usually only portrayed at somewhere within tier 1-C, and that we exaggerate it greatly.

 

[Antvasima]

Was the scans in Jean's profile regarding the Phoenix Force ever checked yet? There should be supporting evidence for 1-A at least.

Please elaborate.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Please elaborate.

This part where they're in the WHR. It's described as not only a "dimensionally transcendental space", which by itself isn't enough but note that they can't go up in that place either.

If there is no directions in a place (and I mean literally not sense of direction) then it has no dimensions at all.

Note this isn't 1-A itself, just supporting evidence.

 

[AndrewBennet]

This part where they're in the WHR. It's described as not only a "dimensionally transcendental space", which by itself isn't enough but note that they can't go up in that place either.

If there is no directions in a place (and I mean literally not sense of direction) then it has no dimensions at all.

Note this isn't 1-A itself, just supporting evidence.

1A pheonix scales from composite Marvel Cosmology via scaling from Demattis run. Pretty much the entire Cosmology of current Marvel is scaled from previous iteration of the Multiverse.

 

[LuciferX]

Well, the request that I made above had not been carried out yet.

Overspace where abstracts like Living Tribunal resides in a 16 Dimensional Space which qualify for 1-B.

Regarding High 1-B scans:

1. Beyonder said Universe is many layered and has endless dimensions.

But "dimensions" is a synonym for "alt realities/universes"

2. Reed Richard moving through infinite dimensions.

Infinities dimensions weren't even explicitly mentioned as spatial ones here. more likely its suggesting crossroads is a junction infinite alt dimensions/realities. Reed Richard jumping from 4D space to Infinite D space suddenly is also a big contradiction. not even in guidebooks described negative zone as infinite dimensional or such thing.

3. This scan from Ghost Rider 2099 series was used to prove High 1-B, but the problem is, credibility of source. It mentioned randomly without any further context. the statement itself is kinda vague and not objective.

"X dimensional space" term could refer to alt universes and here is the best example.

4. "Infinite Levels"

But it is refering to bubble realities created by Hypercomputers which are real fantasies.

In fact., they aren't real.

also it says "us who can observe multiverse on infinite levels" mean humans can observe inf spatial dimensions? doesn't make sense. thus, could refer to infinite alt existences.

5. Actually I don't know how "infinity beyond infinity" prove High 1-B? (seen used to prove High 1-B ranking)

6. Only scan that actually mention about infinite dimensions is this, but there is no evidence whether they have qualitative superiority. you can't use other comic series as evidence to prove since this version is limited to "Secret Wars 2", also other abstarct beings are below than PR Beyonder and doesn't scale to him. However, this is invalid now due to being a retcon.

7. In Georg Cantor's transfinite series, Marvel Multiverse was stated to be 3D with other Higher Dimensional Universes upto 6.2 likely 1-C,Complex Multiversal level.

Summary:

Cosmology ranges from 1-C to 1-B, but there is no consistent evidence for qualitative superiority of those dimensions. another main problem is the relevancy of scans that imply the qualitative superiority, I mean "dimensions" were mentioned in a random comic and "Q superiority" evidence is from another comic, written by another author. If someone can provide some consistent evidence for it, then 1-C to 1-B scaling is fine.

 

[LuciferX]

This part where they're in the WHR. It's described as not only a "dimensionally transcendental space", which by itself isn't enough but note that they can't go up in that place either.

If there is no directions in a place (and I mean literally not sense of direction) then it has no dimensions at all.

Note this isn't 1-A itself, just supporting evidence.

"Dimension" term oftenly use as a synonym to "Universe", so a bit vague statement if there is no further context.

 

[Hasty12345]

Lucifer makes some solid points above

 

[Vasco]

This scan from Ghost Rider 2099 series was used to prove High 1-B, but the problem is, credibility of source. It mentioned randomly without any further context. the statement itself is kinda vague and not objective.

This looks High 1-B, it said infinite dimensional space and kept mentioning transcendence

"X dimensional space" term could refer to alt universes and here is the best example.

Perphaps you're right but this is from DC comics not marvel.

Actually I don't know how "infinity beyond infinity" prove High 1-B? (seen used to prove High 1-B ranking)

Perhaps it was used as supporting evidence.

Only scan that actually mention about infinite dimensions is this, but there is no evidence whether they have qualitative superiority. you can't use other comic series as evidence to prove since this version is limited to "Secret Wars 2", also other abstarct beings are below than PR Beyonder and doesn't scale to him. However, this is invalid now due to being a retcon.

I said above on this, it probably meant his being in the Beyond Realm is infinite-dimensional though you are right about no definite proof of qualitative superiority but his realm was larger than the universe like comparing a drop of ocean to an ocean that can be a possible transcendence. The abstract then aren't even universal just Eternity in later in Infinite gauntlet and Thanos quest they became really powerful and yes none scale to him only Molecule man that could probably reach his level or comparable to him.

6.2 likely 1-C,Complex Multiversal level.

It's Low 1-C, 1-C is from 7-D, but this would make marvel Low 1-C this most powerful.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Multiverse has four hierarchies: deep space, super flow, neutral zone, and outside(mystery).
But the mystery seems to be outside of Multiverse lately.
If deep space is an infinite physical universe, Marvel could be at least 1-C.(Toaa is still on top of the mystery.)
This is all about the current Marvel and classic Marvel can be much more powerful

 

[LuciferX]

This looks High 1-B, it said infinite dimensional space and kept mentioning transcendence

It says transcending to a matrix of pure intellect.

Perphaps you're right but this is from DC comics not marvel

I know. It has similarities. Both mention as dimensional space but in fact refer to alt realities in DC scan.

Perhaps it was used as supporting evidence.

Maybe.

I said above on this, it probably meant his being in the Beyond Realm is infinite-dimensional though you are right about no definite proof of qualitative superiority but his realm was larger than the universe like comparing a drop of ocean to an ocean that can be a possible transcendence. The abstract then aren't even universal just Eternity in later in Infinite gauntlet and Thanos quest they became really powerful and yes none scale to him only Molecule man that could probably reach his level or comparable to him.

Yeah.

It's Low 1-C, 1-C is from 7-D, but this would make marvel Low 1-C this most powerful.

Well.

 

[Vasco]

I know. It has similarities. Both mention as dimensional space but in fact refer to alt realities in DC scan.

True both are probably meant as alternate universes.