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Marvel Cosmology - Clean Up and Revision.

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Antvasima said:
Well, I definitely don't want you to just repeat what we already debunked and countered in the discussion above, just to help us structure some kind of rational scaling logic for Marvel's multiversal cosmic entities, both the ones that scale to Multi-Eternity and the ones far below him.
Click to expand...
I would be better if the staffs handle it by themselves.
 
Help is obviously appreciated from regular members as well, but it should preferably be based on our conclusions and my stated instructions above.
 
We have already talked about and debunked infinite-dimensional universes in this thread. I don't consider it acceptable to waste the time and patience of myself and others over and over with the same arguments.
 
Oh yeah, the staff should do it, i hope the peeps in charge of marvel come back soon (?). I'm fine with that, cuz every time i bring a thread, the first time is supposed debunked in the thread, but then someone goes there and makes the same thread with the same argues and is approved.

Whatever, anyway.
 
I would still greatly appreciate your help if you follow my instructions above, and do not try to apply infinite-dimensional universes again, especially as Confluctor and Impress seem to have left this community.
 
so what is the conclusion of this thread? we gonna just throw out everything like we usually do with marvel? "cuse scaling bad" for the emptinth time?
 
Just to be clear, “we" agree with infinite dimensions but we disagree that the NZ or the Universe scales to it because “Marvel upgrade bad" or something?

Someone remind me why we even disagreed i was ****** up last Friday
 
Well, not only. There was an early 1990s Doctor Strange explanation sequence about the Marvel multiverse as well, and it was also stated during Secret Wars II in the mid-1980s.
 
So, we accept the Junction to be High 1-B, but we dont think its inside the NZ because it would warrant for outrageous ratings or something?
 
Alright, let this be my last shot on this (hopefully)

DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, I'm honestly iffy on this. Not every writer uses the world Universe/Multiverse to describe the entire cosmology of Marvel's Infinite-D hierarchy. I'm not going to pretend to be some super expert on the series, but I recall Zark mentioning just because some authors mention some tier 1 cosmic structures doesn't mean we suddenly assume the next author agreed with it when the same terms were mentioned in their work. Not to mention, even if it were consistent for some structures, the strong likelihood of outliers still needs to be considered.
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Antvasima said:
Well, Marvel Comics is an inconsistent and incoherent complete mess in sum total. What else is new?
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If we all agree on this premise, then why cant we use that exact logic for the opposite?
Not every writer uses every dimension in the universe when displaying “Universe affecting" feats.
Why should we assume that every universal destruction is referring to the full scope of 616, with it being a reference to every cosmological structure inside the timeline across Marvel comics history? And not just what the Characters/Authors of the comic believe “their world" as.

Especially with the fact that other structures inside 616 are regularly referred to as universes too
And with the fact that some characters interpret the 3D universe to be its own world disconnected from higher dimensions as regularly shown in Blackwulf (1994)

Simply enough, a character destroys a universe, it will be interpreted as a regular 3D space unless proven otherwise,
if shown to be encompassing the full universe, if it's completely inconsistent then we dismiss the feat, simple as that
Literally the safest option we can take instead of blatantly dismissing a fact.

After all, Marvel Comics is 80+ Years old, of course authors will simply interpret the universe as what a universe is commonly interpreted as

Executor_N0 said:
The way I see it the universe might have different interpretations not only for the writers but also in the way that specific characters know about the universe/multiverse. The fact that one character stated that the universe had more than 3 dimensions is an example of that character having a certain understanding of the cosmology and he calls that a universe, different characters might have different understandings that could work to expand the overall structure (I remember things like the Negative Zone and Subspace, or worlds within worlds as having different explanations depending on the era, that not only could talk about what different authors thoughts, but also what the characters themselves were thinking at the time).

Of course, when a random character talks about destroying the universe in any random comic it wouldn't necessarily mean that they think of the universe as having more than 4 dimensions or any other pocket/beyond realms that can still be called to be "within the universe" by certain characters, it would depend on what the character knows and the overall context. In the end there's nothing wrong to say something like "the universe has more than three dimensions" if the context is right, it's something that impacts the overall structure, but isn't something that is going to be the basis for literally every character when they are talking about the universe, context will always matter.
Click to expand...

Yeah thats about it, i am unfortunately certain this thread will be rejected, even though i think its very good evidence of Subspace being High 1-B and an already High 1-B structure existing inside the NZ, as well as the statement that implies that the NZ literally controls dimensionality as a whole
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Yeah thats about it, i am unfortunately certain this thread will be rejected, even though i think its very good evidence of Subspace being High 1-B and an already High 1-B structure existing inside the NZ, as well as the statement that implies that the NZ literally controls dimensionality as a whole
Click to expand...
I would even reinforce how the term Hyperspace was born in Captain Marvel vol 1, and there it describes this structure being part of the Negative Zone and just another name for subspace like the guidebook says, but if even the evidence showing 5D and 6D in dimensional readjustments inside the Negative Zone isn't enough for the false counter argument of "this will cause a wanked tiering", and not the fact of how Marvel works the realm, then it's just a waste of time.

The peeps who took care of the verse had already warned me that it would never pass, not because it was wrong, but because even if i bring evidence to every writer saying that the Negative Zone is Infinite Dimensional, it won't be accepted.
 
Alonik said:
I would even reinforce how the term Hyperspace was born in Captain Marvel vol 1, and there it describes this structure being part of the Negative Zone and just another name for subspace like the guidebook says, but if even the evidence showing 5D and 6D in dimensional readjustments inside the Negative Zone isn't enough for the false counter argument of "this will cause a wanked tiering", and not the fact of how Marvel works the realm, then it's just a waste of time.

The peeps who took care of the verse had already warned me that it would never pass, not because it was wrong, but because even if i bring evidence to every writer saying that the Negative Zone is Infinite Dimensional, it won't be accepted.
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yeah honestly I gave up on getting marvel any higher than low 1-A for the multiversial abstracts ages back
 
Antvasima said:
Well, not only. There was an early 1990s Doctor Strange explanation sequence about the Marvel multiverse as well, and it was also stated during Secret Wars II in the mid-1980s.
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Secret wars states the beyonder is infinite-dimensional or his realm is, no statement that the multiverse is infinite-dimensional especially in case of higher-infinities.
 
Alonik said:
The peeps who took care of the verse had already warned me that it would never pass, not because it was wrong, but because even if i bring evidence to every writer saying that the Negative Zone is Infinite Dimensional, it won't be accepted.
Click to expand...
Cause it could be 2-A.
 
Setsuna_tenma said:
Negative zone refers to spatial dimensions not just dimensions in general
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Dimensions are either spatial or temporal, I don't get what you mean except you mean Negative zone containing infinite dimensions that are superior to one another with R>F difference. I would like to see the scans of Negative zone.
 
Vasco said:
Secret wars states the beyonder is infinite-dimensional or his realm is, no statement that the multiverse is infinite-dimensional especially in case of higher-infinities.
Click to expand...
I think that it was mentioned during The Beyonder's appearance in the Hulk comic at the time.

Also, to NHTkenshin2 and Alonik, again, infinite-dimensional universes do not have anywhere near sufficiently consistent and elaborate evidence for an 83 years old company with several tens of thousands of stories, and the junction to everywhere definitely seems to work much the same way as several other higher-dimensional nexyses that have been established to exist in Marvel Comics and interconnect with and are accessible via lower-dimensional universes, but definitely not remotely contained and confined by them in their entireties.

In fact, if they were entirely contained rather than just being accessible by lower universes, they wouldn't be able to lead anywhere else in the multiverse per logical definition.

End of discussion. Do not ever bring up this issue again. Thank you.

Now, let's focus on the scaling of the lower multiversal aspects/conceptual entities, and the comparable cosmic entities, who do not scale to Multi-Eternity in their entireties.
 
Okay. I think that we link to it in one of our Marvel cosmic entities profile pages.
 
Antvasima said:
infinite-dimensional universes do not have anywhere near sufficiently consistent and elaborate evidence for an 83 years old company with several tens of thousands of stories
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Please re-read my post
You have brought up this problem multiple times and i have already given a very plausible solution

Antvasima said:
the junction to everywhere definitely seems to work much the same way as several other higher-dimensional nexyses that have been established to exist in Marvel Comics and interconnect with and are accessible via lower-dimensional universes
Click to expand...

It is stated that the junction (not a portal to the junction) is “within" the NZ, as well as a scan from databooks explicitly showing the junction to everywhere while showing images that describe the Negative Zone

Also, maybe i am not aware, but Is there evidence that the junction is “accessed” by the NZ?
Like a statement or a showing where a character enters a portal which leads inside the junction and outside The Negative Zone?
If not, then why exactly assume that the junction is even “accsesed from the NZ”

If no evidence is given, then this is an argument straight up built on nothing

Antvasima said:
In fact, if they were entirely contained rather than just being accessible by lower universes, they wouldn't be able to lead anywhere else in the multiverse per logical definition.
Click to expand...
Im confused here, are you saying that these structures being inside The NZ wouldn't make sense because they now cant be accessed somewhere else? Why would we assume that? We already do know that dimensions like the Crossroads can still be accessed from everywhere while still being inside the 616 universe

Antvasima said:
End of discussion. Do not ever bring up this issue again. Thank you.
Click to expand...
The discussion will end, when this threads main purpose has evidence to get rejected
You will have to:
  1. Prove that the Junction to Everywhere doesn't exist inside The Negative Zone
  2. Prove that the Subspace isnt High 1-B
  3. Prove that universe statements includes Marvel Comics 80+ years of cosmological structures and doesn't work on factoring in Characters/Writer interpretation of the universe
If these three are completely proven, i will admit my wrong comments and apologise for wasting your time
 
Now that I remembered, the thread about the High 1-B Negative Zone was already accepted when it was done by Kepekley in 2019, I was going to pick up hundreds of proofs that Hyperspace and Subspace are the same thing, but it's irrelevant in the face of it.

Thread where it was accepted, and Antvasima accepted it as well.

Anyway, Negative Zone should be 2portrayed as the High 1-B part of the Multiverse, and the higher realms beyond that. The only thing I brought in this thread was a lot of scans to support and a more solid base for what had already been passed and outvoted by staff and knowledgeable members in the past:
Deep Space
"Deep Space" describes any realm or universe contained within the "mainstream" Multiverse, before the more abstract domains proper. While this is technically the entirety of the normal 2-A multiverse and beyond, the most relevant realm of this layer for our purposes is the Negative Zone, a zone of reality that was shown to encompass the Subspace, which in itself is composed of infinite higher dimensions (High 1-B):

"I've done it!! I'm drifting into a world of limitless dimensions!! It's the crossroads of infinity - the junction to Everywhere!

As stated by the Celestials, the Subspace is just one of the many locations that Eternity encompasses:

"Beyond the edge of the Subspace to the cusp of Eternity."

The Negative Zone in itself is but a negative counterpart to the normal multiverse (described in the Infinity Finale as the "PosiVerse" by multiple sources), which strongly suggests that the mainstream multiverse also contains an infinite amount of higher dimensions within its breadth. This is just to show right away that even the lowest layer of the Multiversal Eternity is High 1-B in complexity.
Click to expand...
Here the things to be accepted I think depends on whether you have a stafftag below your profile or not, not least because after the Deep Space part it was my arguments that Kepekley used, and now just bringing the solid evidence for what is already accepted in the profile is being denied. LOL
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Please re-read my post
You have brought up this problem multiple times and i have already given a very plausible solution
Click to expand...
No, you have brought up a "solution" that would sometimes use the word universe for a multiverse and sometimes not, and use a distinction that has not been established anywhere. So no.
NHTkenshin2 said:
It is stated that the junction (not a portal to the junction) is “within" the NZ, as well as a scan from databooks explicitly showing the junction to everywhere while showing images that describe the Negative Zone

Also, maybe i am not aware, but Is there evidence that the junction is “accessed” by the NZ?
Like a statement or a showing where a character enters a portal which leads inside the junction and outside The Negative Zone?
If not, then why exactly assume that the junction is even “accsesed from the NZ”

If no evidence is given, then this is an argument straight up built on nothing
Click to expand...
If the junction truly reaches "everywhere", it is not confined to the Negative Zone per definition, it is just one of many entry points.

We have to use basic logic and consistency in our evaluations. Not extremely rare inconsistencies to overturn try to overturn entire cosmology for as maximised and unreliable statistics as possible.

Also, you image link doesn't work.
NHTkenshin2 said:
Im confused here, are you saying that these structures being inside The NZ wouldn't make sense because they now cant be accessed somewhere else? Why would we assume that? We already do know that dimensions like the Crossroads can still be accessed from everywhere while still being inside the 616 universe
Click to expand...
That isn't how higher-dimensional junctions/nexuses logically fundamentally mathematically function. Tiny parts of them can intersect with lower dimensions, but that doesn't make those lower dimensions encompass them in their entireties, neither in the case of the Crossroads, the Junction to Everywhere, or otherwise.
NHTkenshin2 said:
The discussion will end, when this threads main purpose has evidence to get rejected
You will have to:
  1. Prove that the Junction to Everywhere doesn't exist inside The Negative Zone
  2. Prove that the Subspace isnt High 1-B
  3. Prove that universe statements includes Marvel Comics 80+ years of cosmological structures and doesn't work on factoring in Characters/Writer interpretation of the universe
If these three are completely proven, i will admit my wrong comments and apologise for wasting your time
Click to expand...
All that we need is reasonable doubt that Marvel's editorial department and writers usually or consistently treat regular Marvel universes as infinite-dimensional, which is a very extreme claim that requires similarly extreme evidencem and for our staff to reject this suggestion. Both of these requirements have been filfilled, and continuing to pester me and wasting my time here is not going to change that. Sorry.

So is anybody here willing to collaborate by following my earlier instructions in this thread, so we can accomplish something constructive here, or do you insist on continuing to stubbornly go around in circles by repeating arguments that have already been firmly rejected, in which case I will be forced to close this thread and possibly delete your derailing posts.
 
Alonik said:
Now that I remembered, the thread about the High 1-B Negative Zone was already accepted when it was done by Kepekley in 2019, I was going to pick up hundreds of proofs that Hyperspace and Subspace are the same thing, but it's irrelevant in the face of it.

Thread where it was accepted, and Antvasima accepted it as well.

Anyway, Negative Zone should be 2portrayed as the High 1-B part of the Multiverse, and the higher realms beyond that. The only thing I brought in this thread was a lot of scans to support and a more solid base for what had already been passed and outvoted by staff and knowledgeable members in the past:

Here the things to be accepted I think depends on whether you have a stafftag below your profile or not, not least because after the Deep Space part it was my arguments that Kepekley used, and now just bringing the solid evidence for what is already accepted in the profile is being denied. LOL
Click to expand...
Infinite-dimensional regular universes, including the Negative Zone, have been firmly rejected, whereas infinite-dimensional multiverses that are partially scaled from the Junction to Everywhere are obviously fine.

If your claim above were exactly accurate, Kepekley would have listed all of the universal cosmic entities as High 1-B long ago, which he definitely didn't.
 
Antvasima said:
If the junction truly reaches "everywhere", it is not confined to the Negative Zone per definition, it is just one of many entry points.
Click to expand...
Exactly my thoughts, I saw read it as a gateway or dimension that connects other dimensions.
I don't know for others but that scan is 2-A as no statement or proof of higher-infinities was mentioned just "limitless dimensions".
 
Vasco said:
Exactly my thoughts, I saw read it as a gateway or dimension that connects other dimensions.
I don't know for others but that scan is 2-A as no statement or proof of higher-infinities was mentioned just "limitless dimensions".
Click to expand...
Thank you for trying to be sensible, reasonable, and to use your common sense. I am getting extremely tired of having to deal with people who seem to nearly completely let go of all three qualities whenever DC Comics or Marvel Comics are involved, and recurrently combine this with relentless argumentative persistence, for over 8 years now.

Anyway, is anybody here willing to help me out with the scaling of Marvel's lesser multiversal abstract entities to either High 1-B or Low 1-A or so, or at least lower than Multi-Eternity, or should I close this thread in lack of better options?
 
Leave it open, i guess it would be easier for the other revisions to be done here. Btw, Ultima said he would still comment here.
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, is anybody here willing to help me out with the scaling of Marvel's lesser multiversal abstract entities to either High 1-B or Low 1-A or so, or at least lower than Multi-Eternity, or should I close this thread in lack of better options?
Click to expand...
They probably do scale to Eternity the more i think about it
If i am not incorrect master order and chaos are comparable to Lifebringer Galactus, who is “as infinite as the last cosmos"
 
Antvasima said:
No, you have brought up a "solution" that would sometimes use the word universe for a multiverse and sometimes not, and use a distinction that has not been established anywhere. So no.

If the junction truly reaches "everywhere", it is not confined to the Negative Zone per definition, it is just one of many entry points.

We have to use basic logic and consistency in our evaluations. Not extremely rare inconsistencies to overturn try to overturn entire cosmology for as maximised and unreliable statistics as possible.

Also, you image link doesn't work.

That isn't how higher-dimensional junctions/nexuses logically fundamentally mathematically function. Tiny parts of them can intersect with lower dimensions, but that doesn't make those lower dimensions encompass them in their entireties, neither in the case of the Crossroads, the Junction to Everywhere, or otherwise.

All that we need is reasonable doubt that Marvel's editorial department and writers usually or consistently treat regular Marvel universes as infinite-dimensional, which is a very extreme claim that requires similarly extreme evidence and for our staff to reject this suggestion. Both of these requirements have been filfilled, and continuing to pester me and wasting my time here is not going to change that. Sorry.

So is anybody here willing to collaborate by following my earlier instructions in this thread, so we can accomplish something constructive here, or do you insist on continuing to stubbornly go around in circles by repeating arguments that have already been firmly rejected, in which case I will be forced to close this thread and possibly delete your derailing posts.
Click to expand...
I'm inclined to agree with Ant here from what I've read
 
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Alonik said:
Leave it open, i guess it would be easier for the other revisions to be done here. Btw, Ultima said he would still comment here.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, the tried and true method of ganging up and spamming Ultima with very onesided information via Discord about verses that he is not in-depth familiar with until he agrees to be used as a weapon of mass destruction for completely exaggerated astronomical upgrades into tier 0 territory. Wonderful. It is great that others here take our responsibility of striving for high accuracy and reliability for our wiki, rather than biased exaggeration, seriously.

Anyway, our staff have already thoroughly rejected your extremely unreasonable suggestion of infinite-dimensional regular universes based on minor snippets of very inconsistent information that at best constitute 0.001% of Marvel's total history, so this thread is over and done with given that you stubbornly refuse to adapt and help me out to turn this into something constructive instead.
 
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NHTkenshin2 said:
They probably do scale to Eternity the more i think about it
If i am not incorrect master order and chaos are comparable to Lifebringer Galactus, who is “as infinite as the last cosmos"
Click to expand...
No, they do not seem to reach higher than the level of existence where multiversal aspects/conceptual entities have meetings with each other (although I seem to have forgotten the exact name that Al Ewing gave it at the moment). They certainly shouldn't encompass The Far Shore in particular.
 
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Quantu said:
I'm inclined to agree with Ant here from what I've read
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Thank you for trying to maintain some degree of objectivity and common sense even for verses that you personally really like. 🙏
 
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