Marvel Cosmology - Clean Up and Revision.

[Antvasima]

Looking at the Marvel fandom page, it does seem to be described as an Anti-Matter universe several times. However, I am not currently able to look at the comic books which say this, though I can do so later to get a more thorough view of what the Negative Zone actually is.

Yes. It is a "regular" 3-dimensional antimatter universe with 3-dimensional denizens corresponding to positive matter universes. That is all.

Anyway, @Firestorm808 @Pain_to12 @Deagonx , and the members that I called for earlier, would you be be willing to handle this going-in-circles argument please? I get extremely overworked, mentally strained, and stressed out from being forced to endure and waste time on it by inconsiderate and unreasonable fanatic upgrade-addicts while I simultaneously have to do other important tasks to handle, both in real life and in this community.

 

[Deagonx]

Why is this such a big deal?

I do think it warrants investigation as to why we would cherry-pick the highest tier iteration of a realm, and ignore all the various times it has been portrayed as something much much smaller.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, we dont assume any universe level feat to scale to the entire Universe and its dimensions, from what i understand, the Dark dimension is a part of 616 but we still dont assume any Universe buster to be Low 1-C

Why is this such a big deal?

No, the Dark Dimension has been firmly established as a higher-dimensional separate magical universe that is superior to regular ones, which is one of the main reasons for why we scale classic Dormammu to Low 1-C.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Honestly I'm not that good on Tier 1 discussions, but I 100% agree with this:

A single regular universe isn't remotely consistently portrayed as infinite-dimensional

I'm aware that some statements will appear in 80 years of story, but they aren't really consistent at all with the usual representation of these realms, the fact that this may scale to a bunch of people makes this even harder to accept

 

[NHTkenshin2]

No, the Dark Dimension has been firmly established as a higher-dimensional separate magical universe that is superior to regular ones, which is one of the main reasons for why we scale classic Dormammu to Low 1-C.

The dark dimension exists inside other alternate universes though? Earth-9047 for example, why do we assume its a separate realm?

 

[Antvasima]

Reed's scan is literally shows that the Junction to Everywhere, has limitless dimensions in subspace.

Fine, but comic book writers are not scientists and have recurrently got their terminology wrong, as we all are familiar with due to them calling magical universes "dimensions" instead.

Just don't scale them to the High 1-B, if a character has destroyed a universe, unless all dimensions are quoted, he has only destroyed the 3-D part of the universe.

By that reasoning there wouldn't be any difference between what you are saying an a large multiverse.

Anyway, I am fine with scaling the Marvel multiverse from this, but not the lowest parts of its reality. In fact, it is likely useful to scale the multiversal aspects/abstract entities, that are below Multi-Eternity in the hierarchy, from.

 

[Deagonx]

The dark dimension exists inside other alternate universes though? Earth-9047 for example, why do we assume its a separate realm?

Earth-9047 was a parody comic, there wasn't a "dark dimension." It was the "Not-too-bright-dimension" or "Dimly-Lit-Dimension-That-Didn't-Pay-Its-Light-Bill" ruled by "Doormammoomoo." In mainstream Marvel it's consistently described as a separate realm.

 

[Executor_N0]

Someone asked me to send this

In the classic Doctor Strange, the universe isn't just three-dimensional, there are many times when it said that the universe has more than three dimensions, even in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme, Strange comments that there is a greater reality, and the reality they live in is just a shadow of this greater reality, and that there dimensions above, below, beside, and worlds within worlds. The argument that reality is just "Three Dimensional" is incoherent.

+Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #87 : "That what we take to be reality is only a shadow of a greater reality that extend outward -- in infinite directions".
+Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #88: "There are invisible worlds within this worlds... Beside this world... Above this worlds. A few of them are glorious. Most of them are dangerous".
+ Doctor Strange (1974) #5: "Fell, in fact in more many more dimensions than just length width, height, and time".

And in other comics, there are some explanations about "dimensionality" where within the universe you can go to different "layers" where lower and higher dimensions exist. You can go to higher dimensions without leaving the universe, you just left the lower dimension.

+Blackwulf #8 This one has engaged you long enough in your paltry 3-Dimensional Space... Prepare for tessellation into the higher dimensions of God-Stalker!
+Blackwulf #9: Nonsense, child. He is in this universe. Just not in this dimension.
+Blackwulf #10: Touchstone -- A temporal anomaly existing in all dimensional realities simultaneously.
+Blackwulf #10: Showed Touchstone alternate versions/realities with 28D.

Conclusion: In every age, you can see examples with higher dimensional universes/realities, with much more than Three Dimensions, Antvasima, your arguments are like the time in which you said that Marvel Multiverse is just 2-B even being showed scans about infinite dimensions or higher dimensions. In every thread about Marvel, you always catch the lowest example about something, even when the majority of scans don't sustain your arguments.

Marvel threads are always this same thing
Someone show 100 scans and context about Marvel being Higher Dimensional with Infinite Higher Dimensions or anything like this, and you appear and say: "But, in this one comic there is one piece of information that is different from this", that is, you want that everyone ignores the majority of comics of Marvel and use base the comics that you acknowledge as "valid".

The way I see it the universe might have different interpretations not only for the writers but also in the way that specific characters know about the universe/multiverse. The fact that one character stated that the universe had more than 3 dimensions is an example of that character having a certain understanding of the cosmology and he calls that a universe, different characters might have different understandings that could work to expand the overall structure (I remember things like the Negative Zone and Subspace, or worlds within worlds as having different explanations depending on the era, that not only could talk about what different authors thoughts, but also what the characters themselves were thinking at the time).

Of course, when a random character talks about destroying the universe in any random comic it wouldn't necessarily mean that they think of the universe as having more than 4 dimensions or any other pocket/beyond realms that can still be called to be "within the universe" by certain characters, it would depend on what the character knows and the overall context. In the end there's nothing wrong to say something like "the universe has more than three dimensions" if the context is right, it's something that impacts the overall structure, but isn't something that is going to be the basis for literally every character when they are talking about the universe, context will always matter.

 

[Antvasima]

Honestly I'm not that good on Tier 1 discussions, but I 100% agree with this:


I'm aware that some statements will appear in 80 years of story, but they aren't really consistent at all with the usual representation of these realms, the fact that this may scale to a bunch of people makes this even harder to accept

Thank you very much for the support. I really really hate these types of "let's upgrade everything to absolutely staggering degrees, and be completely unreasonable about it, based on a few offhanded scans that just constitute 0.00001% of Marvel Comics' history" prolonged and very mentally straining arguments.

 

[Alonik]

Anyway, I am fine with scaling the Marvel multiverse from this, but not the lowest parts of its reality. In fact, it is likely useful to scale the multiversal aspects/abstract entities, that are below Multi-Eternity in the hierarchy, from.

That's what this revision is for, only characters like abstract levels would start to scale.

 

[Antvasima]

The dark dimension exists inside other alternate universes though? Earth-9047 for example, why do we assume its a separate realm?

That is just another example of extreme inconsistency in the storytelling though. Marvel is generally an incoherent mess due to the sheer amount of writers and editorial disorganisation over the past eight decades, which is a big part of the reason why we need great consistency in order to properly apply any drastic changes. The more extraordinary the claims, the more extraordinary, consistent, and coherent the evidence needs to be.

 

[Deagonx]

Someone asked me to send this

I think the scans are not terribly compelling for the points that chunk of text is trying to make.

In the classic Doctor Strange, the universe isn't just three-dimensional, there are many times when it said that the universe has more than three dimensions, even in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme, Strange comments that there is a greater reality, and the reality they live in is just a shadow of this greater reality, and that there dimensions above, below, beside, and worlds within worlds. The argument that reality is just "Three Dimensional" is incoherent.

+Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #87 : "That what we take to be reality is only a shadow of a greater reality that extend outward -- in infinite directions".
+Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #88: "There are invisible worlds within this worlds... Beside this world... Above this worlds. A few of them are glorious. Most of them are dangerous".
+ Doctor Strange (1974) #5: "Fell, in fact in more many more dimensions than just length width, height, and time".

It seems telling that only one of these scans, from 50 years ago, is the only one that says there's anything more than 3 spatial dimensions.

Someone show 100 scans and context about Marvel being Higher Dimensional with Infinite Higher Dimensions or anything like this, and you appear and say: "But, in this one comic there is one piece of information that is different from this", that is, you want that everyone ignores the majority of comics of Marvel and use base the comics that you acknowledge as "valid".

To be honest, I think it's more the opposite. Someone will show a couple of vague scans and maybe one or two storylines where higher dimensionality is actually attested to, but the vast majority of Marvel will not display that. I mean, this whole infinite dimensionality thing seems to rely on this single FF scan.

 

[Antvasima]

That's what this revision is for, only characters like abstract levels would start to scale.

I am referring to multiversal abstracts, not universal abstracts. All of the other tier 2 characters would also be included in the High 1-B or Low 1-A upgrade as well via scaling otherwise.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm honestly iffy on this. Not every writer uses the world Universe/Multiverse to describe the entire cosmology of Marvel's Infinite-D hierarchy. I'm not going to pretend to be some super expert on the series, but I recall Zark mentioning just because some authors mention some tier 1 cosmic structures doesn't mean we suddenly assume the next author agreed with it when the same terms were mentioned in their work. Not to mention, even if it were consistent for some structures, the strong likelihood of outliers still needs to be considered.

 

[Deagonx]

just because some authors mention some tier 1 cosmic structures doesn't mean we suddenly assume the next author agreed with it when the same terms were mentioned in their work. Not to mention, even if it were consistent for some structures, the strong likelihood of outliers still needs to be considered.

I completely agree.

 

[Antvasima]

Someone asked me to send this

As a staff member, you preferably shouldn't act as a spokesperson to post prolonged arguments from people who were banned from our community, if that is what happened, and neither should regular members.

The way I see it the universe might have different interpretations not only for the writers but also in the way that specific characters know about the universe/multiverse. The fact that one character stated that the universe had more than 3 dimensions is an example of that character having a certain understanding of the cosmology and he calls that a universe, different characters might have different understandings that could work to expand the overall structure (I remember things like the Negative Zone and Subspace, or worlds within worlds as having different explanations depending on the era, that not only could talk about what different authors thoughts, but also what the characters themselves were thinking at the time).

Of course, when a random character talks about destroying the universe in any random comic it wouldn't necessarily mean that they think of the universe as having more than 4 dimensions or any other pocket/beyond realms that can still be called to be "within the universe" by certain characters, it would depend on what the character knows and the overall context. In the end there's nothing wrong to say something like "the universe has more than three dimensions" if the context is right, it's something that impacts the overall structure, but isn't something that is going to be the basis for literally every character when they are talking about the universe, context will always matter.

Well, Marvel Comics is an inconsistent and incoherent complete mess in sum total. What else is new? Regardless, if we start to consider all inhabitants of regular universes to be 11-dimensional according to the tiny dimensions in string theory that does not consider higher dimensions to be higher infinities, and combine that with claims from some other Marvel stories and writers that higher dimensions are higher infinities, then we would end up with every single denizen of the Marvel universe getting High 1-C tiers, just to name one example, and what is suggested here is far far more extreme than that.

 

[Antvasima]

just because some authors mention some tier 1 cosmic structures doesn't mean we suddenly assume the next author agreed with it when the same terms were mentioned in their work. Not to mention, even if it were consistent for some structures, the strong likelihood of outliers still needs to be considered.

I completely agree.

I strongly agree as well.

 

[Vasco]

But not that "concept" will change anything, since dimensionality speaks for itself

Concept of dimensions or just saying dimensions or dimensionality or whatever are different and this wiki takes it seriously especially statement like "Concept of dimensions".

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I hope that you are willing to back me up here, so all Low 2-C universe-destroying Marvel Comics characters and above are not upgraded to tier High 1-B or Low 1-A.

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge on the Negative Zone, but High 1-B / Low 1-A Universes does seem like a very exaggerated claim, yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the support. I appreciate it.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

That is just another example of extreme inconsistency in the storytelling though. Marvel is generally and incoherent mess due to the sheer amount of writers and editorial disorganisation over the past eight decades, which is a big part of the reason why we need great consistency in order to properly apply any drastic changes. The more extraordinary the claims, the more extraordinary, consistent, and coherent the evidence needs to be.

No, in heros reborn there is another alternate dark dimension from what i remember

Again, further proving that The Dark dimension is just another dimension inside the universe.
Even if this is not accepted, Yggsrasil is also a part of the universe. But, we don't assume universal destruction to be 2-A

 

[Deagonx]

No, in heros reborn there is another alternate dark dimension from what i remember

Again, further proving that The Dark dimension is just another dimension inside the universe.

No, there isn't. They have a "Dread Dimension." Also, it was never said that the Dread Dimension was inside the universe.

Moreover, a single errant instance does not "further prove" the Dark Dimension is inside the universe, especially since this flies directly in the face of it's consistent portrayal over decades.

Even if this is not accepted, Yggsrasil is also a part of the universe. But, we don't assume universal destruction to be 2-A

The universe is part of Yggdrasil, rather.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with DDM.
And also reading the OP, I am not a fan of scans that are just 2 lines.

A possibly Remake of this thread.
1. An actual scan that says the hyperspace and sub space are the same
The one in the OP just mentioned something about travel
2. Uncontested infinite higher D in each universes, not theories
3. No anti-feats (from what I can gather there are tons, so those will have to be addressed)
4. Who scales and why they scale.

 

[Antvasima]

We might be able to turn this thread into a constructive purpose though:

We will likely upgrade The 7th Cosmos (original Eternity and Infinity), The Never Queen, The Beyonders, Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, Rune King Thor, Mikaboshi, Chaos War Hercules, and the complete Phoenix Force in The White Hot Room to 1-A eventually, and at that point we preferably need to scale the multiversal aspects/conceptual entities, the Celestials at their peak, and Lifebringer Galactus to something else, as they do not reach nearly as high in scale on their own, and scaling them to being beyond an infinite-dimensional nexus that is still contained within the multiverse itself, but below the conceptual space where these entities currently interact, might work.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Are we sure every multiverse has a Far Shore inside of it?

 

[Antvasima]

I unfortunately do not remember well anymore. Does somebody here remember the evidence for this?

 

[Alonik]

Are we sure every multiverse has a Far Shore inside of it?

• In the Seventh Cosmos, En Dwi Gast, the Grandmaster, sealed the previous Grandmaster known as Challenger on the Far Shore of the Seventh Cosmos,and he stayed there while the inner parts of the cosmos evolved into the eighth. - Avengers Vol 1 #679
  • Ewing also confirmed on Twitter that Far Shore was always in Cosmos prior to the Eighth.
• The First Firmament consciousness was drived to the Far Shoreafter the Celestials split it into the Second Cosmos | The Marvel Book: Expand Your Knowledge Of A Vast Comics Universe

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the information. It seems like we should give all of the multiverses the same 1-A tiering then, but it would be good if somebody reminds us about the complete scaling reasoning for it. Meaning, why 1-A instead of High 1-B or Low 1-A, for example?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

• In the Seventh Cosmos, En Dwi Gast, the Grandmaster, sealed the previous Grandmaster known as Challenger on the Far Shore of the Seventh Cosmos,and he stayed there while the inner parts of the cosmos evolved into the eighth. - Avengers Vol 1 #679
  • Ewing also confirmed on Twitter that Far Shore was always in Cosmos prior to the Eighth.
• The First Firmament consciousness was drived to the Far Shoreafter the Celestials split it into the Second Cosmos | The Marvel Book: Expand Your Knowledge Of A Vast Comics Universe

Thank you, alright then, 1-A 7th eternity should be pretty easy

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we also need to make a clear distinction between the scaling for Multi-Eternity and his inner functions/aspects/concepts, given that they do not reach nearly as high. Low 1-A is probably sufficient for them, but we need to properly figure out the details.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Thank you for the information. It seems like we should give all of the multiverses the same 1-A tiering then, but it would be good if somebody reminds us about the complete scaling reasoning for it. Meaning, why 1-A instead of High 1-B or Low 1-A, for example?

Currently, the 7th Eternity (Multiversal Eternity key) being the embodiment of The Low 1-A 7th Multiverse, however, we (supposedly) assume that this excludes The Far Shore, which we accept as 1-A via it transcending all levels of the multiverse and viewing them as fiction
Alonik has proved that this doesn't exclude The Far Shore, thus, 7th Eternity jumps from Low 1-A to solid 1-A
Which upgrades a bunch of people to 1-A

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, thank you for trying to help out, but that is not what I asked. The infinite-dimensional nature of the Marvel multiverse definitely scales it to High 1-B, but what makes it transcend that scale by two tiers exactly? Can somebody provide a schematic and proper reasoning please?

 

[Vasco]

It's kinda true, Low 1-A is uncountable infinite dimensions so being higher than Low 1-A could still be layer into Low 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, and the same is true for High 1-B.

 

[Firestorm808]

I recommend compiling the list of cosmology statements and the like with references in a sandbox going from the lower to higher realities.

I have not cataloged enough of Marvel to give a proper evaluation.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, help with that would be very appreciated.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

We might be able to turn this thread into a constructive purpose though:

We will likely upgrade The 7th Cosmos (original Eternity and Infinity), The Never Queen, The Beyonders, Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, Rune King Thor, Mikaboshi, Chaos War Hercules, and the complete Phoenix Force in The White Hot Room to 1-A eventually, and at that point we preferably need to scale the multiversal aspects/conceptual entities, the Celestials at their peak, and Lifebringer Galactus to something else, as they do not reach nearly as high in scale on their own, and scaling them to being beyond an infinite-dimensional nexus that is still contained within the multiverse itself, but below the conceptual space where these entities currently interact, might work.

Are we sure every multiverse has a Far Shore inside of it?

• In the Seventh Cosmos, En Dwi Gast, the Grandmaster, sealed the previous Grandmaster known as Challenger on the Far Shore of the Seventh Cosmos,and he stayed there while the inner parts of the cosmos evolved into the eighth. - Avengers Vol 1 #679
  • Ewing also confirmed on Twitter that Far Shore was always in Cosmos prior to the Eighth.
• The First Firmament consciousness was drived to the Far Shoreafter the Celestials split it into the Second Cosmos | The Marvel Book: Expand Your Knowledge Of A Vast Comics Universe

Thank you for the information. It seems like we should give all of the multiverses the same 1-A tiering then, but it would be good if somebody reminds us about the complete scaling reasoning for it. Meaning, why 1-A instead of High 1-B or Low 1-A, for example?

We also need to make a clear distinction between the scaling for Multi-Eternity and his inner functions/aspects/concepts, given that they do not reach nearly as high. Low 1-A is probably sufficient for them, but we need to properly figure out the details.

The infinite-dimensional nature of the Marvel multiverse definitely scales it to High 1-B, but what makes it transcend that scale by two tiers exactly? Can somebody provide a schematic and proper reasoning please?

It's kinda true, Low 1-A is uncountable infinite dimensions so being higher than Low 1-A could still be layer into Low 1-A.

Yes, and the same is true for High 1-B.

I recommend compiling the list of cosmology statements and the like with references in a sandbox going from the lower to higher realities.

I have not cataloged enough of Marvel to give a proper evaluation.

Yes, help with that would be very appreciated.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Eseseso

Would any of you be willing to help out with this please?

 

[Alonik]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Eseseso

Would any of you be willing to help out with this please?

maybe i can help, I'm just a little busy this week, but maybe I can start some drafts for the CTR of the top tier justifications and tidy up for their Tiering.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I definitely don't want you to just repeat what we already debunked and countered in the discussion above, just to help us structure some kind of rational scaling logic for Marvel's multiversal cosmic entities, both the ones that scale to Multi-Eternity and the ones far below him.