Marvel Comics - Phoenix Force downgrade! And revision for the Hosts

[Confluctor]

Okay this has been bugging me for far toooooooo long. Ever since I came to this wiki, this is one of the stats that I hate the most. Phoenix being 2A/L1C straight up don't make sense without another statistic there.

We all know how many anti feats Phoenix has, so I say we change her statistics a bit to fix that mess. My proposal at the moment is "Unknown, 2A/L1C at peak".

Now the reason why I say unknown is because her feats differ from story to story. Too many low tier feats so it's hard to quantify properly, so I say we leave her at Unknown for now. It cannot be varied because this is merely an inconsistency between authors.


Now, onto the Hosts.
Why is every host of her straight up 2A/L1C? Most of them don't have feats of that level. Why is Colossus and Namor and the like at 2A when they highest feat they have performed is 4-B? I know, it's "possibly" but there is no need for that rating.

Also, not even Cyclops operated at 2A/L1C sans his last key. Hell, even Hope's rating is quite sketchy.

Anyway, I propose we yeet the mention of 2A/L1C completely and judge them based on their own feats. It makes more sense, looks better, less guesswork and stuff like that.

TL;DR:

1. Phoenix gets an "Unknown, 2A/L1C at peak"
2. Yeet the mention of 2A/L1C from most of her hosts, leaving only Jean and Cyclops' final key.

Or if you don't want to remove, then the person who made those keys needs to link their feats that are even close to THAT level. Cause right now it's one huge mess.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Yeah, if the Hosts don't even have a reasoning for 2-A/L1-C, I definitely agree they should be downgraded unless reasoning for that rating is given. As for the Phoenix Force itself, the reasoning seems fine, but I don't think it implies an unknown tiering, but rather something like "Varies, up to 2-A/L1-C".

 

[WeeklyBattles]

King thor should be fine to keep the 2-A/Low 1-C stuff

 

[Confluctor]

Varies, up to 2-A/L1-C

I am a bit hesitant on this myself because it's just inconsistent rather than having a logical in-canon explaination. Because last I heard, varied tiers needs to be given a proper reasoning or else it gets rejected otherwise.

King thor should be fine to keep the 2-A/Low 1-C stuff

Obviously. He, Jean, last key of Cyclops, wolverine from future, and possibly Rachael should be fine.

 

[Confluctor]

Quick question, why is ascension to the White Hot Room used as a 2A/L1A supporting feat?

Iirc, it doesn't need a tier 1/2 level of power to reach.

Or else we will be looking at 2A/L1A Sentry/Voi lol

 

[Bernkastelll]

Or else we will be looking at 2A/L1A Sentry/Voi lol

this is right tho

 

[Confluctor]

Very right, but wnot ever get accepted. sadge

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Quick question, why is ascension to the White Hot Room used as a 2A/L1A supporting feat?

Iirc, it doesn't need a tier 1/2 level of power to reach.

From the profile it's not that it reached the WHR, it's that its the very core/being of the Multiversal PF itself, and it's called the Nexus of All Realities, the Big Bang that created the Multiverse and the core of all creation. According to the PF's profile anyway. And Jean according to her profile merged with the Mutliversal Phoenix to get Low 1-A for that.

Also it "Exists on the same level of reality as other Multiversal Abstracts". Not sure if that's right unless we have a cosmology scan that says the WHR is on that level.

 

[Confluctor]

Sorry, but I know what the WHR is, so... what exactly do you mean?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I thought you thought the reason the Phoenix was Low 1-A was because it was able to reach the WHR, not that it was the very core of the Phoenix itself from reading your comment. I misunderstood your comment, sorry about that.

Unless someone else somehow got 2-A/Low 1-A from going there.

 

[LordTracer]

Shouldn’t 50% PF Cyclops (and Emma, by extension) remain at his tier since he negged a full power Scarlet Witch?

Otherwise, I agree.

 

[Confluctor]

No, the revision is about Universal Phoenix, not Multiversal. I have my own problems with Low 1A of Marvels, but don't wanna open that can of worms just yet

 

[Confluctor]

Shouldn’t 50% PF Cyclops (and Emma, by extension) remain at his tier since he negged a full power Scarlet Witch?

Otherwise, I agree.

Scarlet Witch is an interesting case. Her 2-A/Low 1-C comes from post AvX event, so it doesn't compare. It was revealed there that she can reach that high again if she has enough time and power source (Wonder Man in that case.)

Also, 50% didn't fight a fully powered SW. Fully powered just means prep time + a strong power source

 

[Confluctor]

Hope could possibly scale to SW tho... So, I guess her rating can stay (I will update the OP to remove her name from it). Since SW erased the entity itself, so that could work.

But I believe her scarlet witch stolen power needs a downgrade too. Tho I can do that some other time.

 

[LordTracer]

Why is every host of her straight up 2A/L1C? Most of them don't have feats of that level. Why is Colossus and Namor and the like at 2A when they highest feat they have performed is 4-B? I know, it's "possibly" but there is no need for that rating.

Also about this, the only reason the Phoenix Five were given the ‘possibly 2-A/Low 1-C’ is because when the Phoenix upgrade thread was made, there was a precedent for characters having a tier like ‘X (insert feats), possibly Y (being a finite percentage of an infinite tier).’

Of course, that’s not a thing anymore, but that’s why they were initially given that tier.

 

[Confluctor]

Ah, I see. So, it shouldn't be controversial to remove now then?

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, it’s perfectly fine to remove now, I was just explaining why it was accepted in the first place.

 

[Confluctor]

Great!

Now I can sleep easy knowing tier 1/2 colossus doesn't exist

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I also support the Phoenix Five just being 4-B too.

 

[LordTracer]

Now I can sleep easy knowing tier 1/2 colossus doesn't exist

Can’t wait for Marvel to make a new event where Colossus gets an amp to become that strong

 

[Confluctor]

Can’t wait for Marvel to make a new event where Colossus gets an amp to become that strong

Here comes more sleepless nights. Oof

 

[Confluctor]

Bump

 

[The_Impress]

I honestly think listing Phoenix Force as Unknown is nonsense, it having lower feats is PIS moreso than anything worth considering.

We don't list jobbers like Gladiator and Galactus any lower, we shouldn't list Phoenix Force any lower either.

 

[Confluctor]

Then at the very least, we should consider taking into account the dozens of low tier feats she have over the years. Her low tier feats outweighs her mid and higher tier feats.

We already have keys for different states of Galactus, so that sort of takes care of the inconsistency, and Gladiator has in-canon reason for his low showings.

 

[The_Impress]

Then at the very least, we should consider taking into account the dozens of low tier feats she have over the years. Her low tier feats outweighs her mid and higher tier feats.

Her contextual placement makes her feat count irrelevant.

Wanna know how we can take into account the "dozen of feats"? Put a note saying she's inconsistent. Fixed.

 

[Confluctor]

Contextual placement might be, but when her every other feat is so low, it becomes a laughable page.

But I suppose a note can work as long as her "real" feats are taken into account.

 

[Confluctor]

Leaving that aside, what should we do about the hosts and people who scale to them?

 

[The_Impress]

Your proposals for the hosts are fine, I was gonna do this revision but.. forgot lol

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Question. I just remebered that Phoenix (1/5) Colossus went to face Cyttorak in his Dimension but couldn't defeat him because a Demon Lord in his Dimension is outside Natural Law. Should be that taken into account for the scaling?

 

[LordTracer]

It’s directly stated that Colossus can’t even face him, so obviously not…

@Confluctor, The Phoenix Five are gonna be 4-Bs, right?

 

[Confluctor]

@Confluctor, The Phoenix Five are gonna be 4-Bs, right?

Yes, scaling from the likes of Thor.

Although some might be lower depending on their feats. So a thorough look at their feats might be needed. Next time I am off work, I can do that.

 

[LordTracer]

Yes, scaling from the likes of Thor.

Although some might be lower depending on their feats. So a thorough look at their feats might be needed. Next time I am off work, I can do that.

Well Namor fought Wanda so that’s 4-B. Colossus and Magik definitely need to be looked at though.

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah, Namor, Cyclops and Emma are fine at 4-B. They also had a battle with Thor (who was obviously 4B in this story). The other two are a problem...


I can vaguely remember her fight against Doc Strange but I will have to look at that once again to see what's up with it.

 

[Confluctor]

There is a feat of Namor and Colossus beating the crap out of Gladiator from Wolverine and X-Men #13.

Also, we definitely need to update their powers and abilities. I think some are missing.

 

[Confluctor]

Magik upscales from Thing and Red Hulk.


Until I look through them, we can use these ones for the time being:

The Messiah and the Five: Phoenix Force Respect Thread (Pt. 2) - Phoenix Force - Comic Vine

From the people who brought you the psychic respect threads brings you......The Phoenix Force has had many hosts over the years, with Jean Grey and Ra

comicvine.gamespot.com

 

[Confluctor]

Scaling ONLY for AP:

Magik:

• X-Men Legacy 2008 # 270
  • stronger than Rogue and Ms Marvel
• Avengers 2010 #28
  • Slashes the Red Hulk with her sword
• AvX #7
  • Loses to Wanda
• Wolverine & the X-Men #14
  • Magik fights the Thing
• AvX #9 - btw this is when PF was divided by 4 members only
  • She and her brother beats Thor
  • Some more avengers they have defeated
  • Fights the Avengers including Doc Strange
  • Spidey puts up a fight...
    • This is also when both lose their PF powers, which then goes into Cyke and Emma.
    • And Cyclops defeated them, it seems.

Colossus:

• Uncanny X-Men 2012 #15
  • Believed he could take on Cyttorak but didn't end well
  • Fights Man-Thing (?)
  • But falls when Sinister's army attacks
• Wolverine & and the X-Men
  • #13
    • Fights Gladiator alongside Namor and other PF hosts
  • #14
    • Beats up some X-Kids and Kitty
• AvX #9 - look at Magik's list

Namor:

• Uncanny X-Men 2012 #15
  • Thrown away by some psychic kids
  • Beats this monster who looks too much like Man-Thing
• Wolverine & the X-Men
  • Fights Gladiator alongside other PF hosts
• AvX #7
  • Fights Wanda, but doesn't end well for him
  • Starts drowning Wakanda
• AvX #8
  • Drowns Wakanda
  • Fights Avengers, Doc Strange, the Thing, Thor, and more but gets overwhelmed in the end
    • Mind you, Wanda has been emotionally vulnerable around this time for various reasons, including the destruction of Vision and "death" of Hawkeye, among other reasons. In addition to that, she was tired by this point because of how many times she needed to save the Avengers from death
• Avengers 2012 #29
  • Against the Avengers and Thor among others

That's all for now, will do Cyclops and Emma some other time.


Tl;dr:

• Magik gets 5-A
• Colossus... Idk. His only big fight was against Gladiator and they ganged up on him. So...
• Namor gets 5-A
  • Yes, this Thor was quite serious and all, but... he was injured earlier in his fight against the Phoenix Force. Additionally, he had been getting his ass kicked by literally every other OP X-Men in this event. So, take it as well, but I believe this wasn't 4-B Thor post #3 of the event. But what do you guys think?

 

[The_Impress]

Man-Thing scan is kinda wrong, since that's not the original one. Clones have varying degree of strength.

Spider-Man scan is also kinda robbing context, making them budge isn't = harming.

Rest seems fine, Colossus and Magik supposedly scale to one another in this form.

 

[Confluctor]

Man-Thing scan is kinda wrong, since that's not the original one. Clones have varying degree of strength

I know, I just wanted to take into account everything they have done

Spider-Man scan is also kinda robbing context, making them budge isn't = harming.

I know. It was more to show that Cyclops took them out rather easily.

 

[Confluctor]

Scaling ONLY

Cyclops:

• 1/5
  • AvX #5
    • Blasts away the Avengers with ease
  • AvX #6
    • Blasts away the Avengers... Again
    • Overpowers Thor
  • AvX: Infinite #6
    • Cannot hear the thoughts of the world from the moon
      • I just thought it would be interesting to note for his telepathic range
    • Considers himself """"omnipotent""""
  • Wolverine & the X-Men #14
    • Fights Gladiator on equal footing until others gets involved
    • Fights Gladiator alongside other PF hosts
  • Avengers 2010 #28
    • Fights Red Hulk and then other hosts join in as well as Magneto
  • AvX #7
    • Overpowers Valkyrie
• 1/4
  • Uncanny X-Men 2012
    • #15
      • Fights his former wife and gets knocked out
    • #16
      • Burns Sinister (but not alone)
  • AvX #9
    • Cyke defeats both siblings when they are distracted and takes their power
• 1/2
  • AvX #10
    • Overpowers Iron Fist (obviously)
    • Vs iron Man
    • Thor gets jobbed again...
    • Fights Shao Lao. Also his weakness as the PF
    • And then this happens (forgot the guy's name)
    • Hope with chi vs Cyke
    • Vs Scarlet Witch
    • Chi Hope + Chaos vs Cyke round 2
  • AvX #11
    • This happens
    • Blasts them away
    • Cap blocks his optic blast
    • Wanda does this
    • Vs magneto and Wanda
      • And Hawkeye can pierce him with an arrow. Maybe he needs to get a varied durability idk
        • Although he is not harmed by it, but still
• 1/Dark Phoenix
  • AvX #11
    • Does this to Logan
  • Uncanny X-Men 2012 #19
    • Ascension time - after killing his mentor, in anger, he loses control. So, this happens on a mental/spiritual plane rather than physical.
  • AvX #12
    • Against all of these
    • Red Hulk and Iceman and Hulk and Thor and more
    • Vs Nova (Sam)
    • Wanda and Hope - with Chi and hex blasts - vs Scott
    • Slightly weakened Cyke vs the rest
    • Confused Cyke is taken on by surprise by Wanda and Hope
    • And then Hope takes the PF from him

Tl;dr: Cyclops at 1 should be 4-B maximum...

 

[The_Impress]

Looks fine ig.

Can you summarize your ratings proposed and give a mockup of AP justifications for visualization?