Marvel Comics - Phoenix Force downgrade! And revision for the Hosts

[Confluctor]

Storm didn't have an event amp and didn't casually overpower Thor.

Storm didn't, but she matched Emma.

And thor was getting jobbed left and right

Because Thor has about sixty years of other stuff that weigh him down to the point where he can't get a Tier 2 or 1 rating without an amp.

Yeah of course, I know that. But when every other feat of the characters in question weighs them down, why the upgrade now?

I'm only suggesting this a possible rating for his complete PF host. Not in any minor forms and not as a core rating.

I know, but even for that rating, why T2/L1C? As I said, I can possibly see 4B because of some odd scaling chain, but even his full form cannot support anything near T2 level. And as mentioned earlier, Scarlet Witch stuff comes from a story that happened a year later or so.

Yes, she and hope at the end does end up being 2A/1C for erasing PF, a conceptual entity, but Cyclops himself doesn't.

But no, it doesn't require Tier 2/1

Precisely, so we can just disregard this statement as it doesn't add anything to his rating.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yes, she and hope at the end does end up being 2A/1C for erasing PF, a conceptual entity, but Cyclops himself doesn't.

But he fights them in a prolonged conflict doesn't he? Why wouldn't he scale to them?

 

[Confluctor]

As I mentioned earlier, both 4B feats of Wanda and her 2A/L1C comes from a story that came much later than this event. We can't just back scale.


Wanda probably has other feats of 4B, but most I remember are around 5A. But in the recent years she has gotten an upgrade.

 

[LordTracer]

We can't just back scale.

I mean… we already do backscale a lot of stuff as far as I’m aware.

 

[Confluctor]

Oh boy, better fix those up then cause that's just wrong.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

At worst the Phoenix Five can't backscale from Rachel to be 4B? Also Dormammu being 4B just means that Phoenix Magik is 4B.

But no, it doesn't require Tier 2/1 stuff to reach. Rachel and Psylocke got there with magic crystals during House of M iirc

Rachel had a Phoenix echo back then and Phoenix Avatars could possibly enter it. Wasn't the crystal that of Jean's?

Storm didn't, but she matched Emma.

Emma though didn't want to kill any mutant...

Though as before I'm only suggesting this a possible rating for his complete PF host. Not in any minor forms and not as a core rating.

I going to agree with this^ Also the latest Marvel guidebook said that Cyclops at end took the full power of the Phoenix when he transformed. Not that means that can use it so a possible rating could teh best he gets.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wasn't the crystal that of Jean's?

Yeah.

 

[Confluctor]

At worst the Phoenix Five can't backscale from Rachel to be 4B?

Once again, why? Echo of Phoenix only has two possible 4B feats which are already listed on her profile ,and even that are slightly questionable.

Also, iirc the arc correctly (been good few years since I read it), she was clearly struggling against Gladiator until she had to start using telepathy to mess with his confidence.

Emma though didn't want to kill any mutant...

So? She still wanted storm to not stand against them. Aka she could have knocked her out but didn't.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that classic Dormammu once easily defeated the Phoenix Force in a single strike in a Guardians of the Galaxy comic book in the early 1990s.

Modern Dormammu has consistently turned into a joke because the writers seem to hate him.

 

[LordTracer]

Also, iirc the arc correctly (been good few years since I read it), she was clearly struggling against Gladiator until she had to start using telepathy to mess with his confidence

A confident Gladiator is 4-B though, right? And struggling against him would kinda just make the idea of ‘At least 5-A, possibly 4-B’ 50% Emma and 50% Scott more feasible.

 

[Confluctor]

Mega confident Gladiator should be much higher

I mean, yeah, but at the same time, the power scaling was everywhere, almost always shown in favour of X-Men.

But if we want to go down the 5A/Possibly 4B route, then it has to be done for all of his keys since he fought Gladiator 1V1 in his 1/5 state.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Once again, why? Echo of Phoenix only has two possible 4B feats which are already listed on her profile ,and even that are slightly questionable.

Also, iirc the arc correctly (been good few years since I read it), she was clearly struggling against Gladiator until she had to start using telepathy to mess with his confidence.

I was not talking about the echo but the regular Phoenix Rachel who is At least 4B, possibly higher.

The upscale from the Echo Rachel and downscale from the full Phoenix Rachel.

So? She still wanted storm to not stand against them. Aka she could have knocked her out but didn't.

There were many people there though.... If the event is going by clear scaling then the Phoenix Five should have one shot anybody and call it a Day. Well maybe the Avengers would have won before the Phoenix Five were created by they wouldn't have stopped the Phoenix...

Just a note that classic Dormammu once easily defeated the Phoenix Force in a single strike in a Guardians of the Galaxy comic book in the early 1990s.

He defeated Gerald a human Phoenix Avatar and not the Phoenix Force itself...

A confident Gladiator is 4-B though, right? And struggling against him would kinda just make the idea of ‘At least 5-A, possibly 4-B’ 50% Emma and 50% Scott more feasible.

Well that would apply to all keys. 1/5 fought Gladiator...

Yeah.

And that Crystal contained her essense so they used Jean in a way to get to the White Hot Room. Jean being the true Phoenix Avatar has access to it. So using something that has her essense to get there doesn't seem to me that the place is accessible to anybody.

 

[LordTracer]

But if we want to go down the 5A/Possibly 4B route, then it has to be done for all of his keys since he fought Gladiator 1V1 in his 1/5 state.

A small price to be paid

Tbh that’s not exactly an issue cause they were fighting a lot of people that could be 4-Bs (Thor, Wanda, Rulk, etc).

 

[Confluctor]

Wanda

Aside from back scaling, any feats of 4-B wanda? I cannot recall any tbh.

Rulk

Aside from Jeph Loeb era where he beat up Thor and Sentry, does he have any other 4-B feats?

 

[LordTracer]

Aside from back scaling, any feats of 4-B wanda? I cannot recall any tbh.

Actually… yeah. There is one thing, she briefly fought an amped(?) Quasar during Marvel Team-Up Annual #5.

Aside from Jeph Loeb era where he beat up Thor and Sentry, does he have any other 4-B feats?

I don’t read Hulk so idk oop

 

[Confluctor]

I don't think the crown amps one's powers, just add new abilities, like telepathy?

But I see, that is a good feat ig

 

[Confluctor]

Full fight here

 

[LordTracer]

I don't think the crown amps one's powers, just add new abilities, like telepathy?

But I see, that is a good feat ig

Yeah, that’s why I put the ? after amped, cause I wasn’t sure if it actually made him stronger.

 

[Antvasima]

He defeated Gerald a human Phoenix Avatar and not the Phoenix Force itself...

Didn't Geraud possess the full universal Phoenix Force? I think that he significantly harmed Eternity at least.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Didn't Geraud possess the full universal Phoenix Force? I think that he significantly harmed Eternity at least.

Yes he did but the Force is stronger than its hosts and Geraud is not stronger than Jean. I am not saying that Dormammu defeating him is not impressive but just that he is not Jean. In another Reality Dark Phoenix Jean trashed Classic Dormammu.

Yeah, that’s why I put the ? after amped, cause I wasn’t sure if it actually made him stronger.

That's a good feat. So Wanda is 4B.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, alternative "What if?" timelines should not scale to the main continuity, but we are derailing.

Anyway, what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Confluctor]

Anyway, what are the conclusions here so far

Completely disregard any T2 and 1 mention in their profiles. Even full power Cyclops, but hope and Wanda are good to go.

Now we are discussing 5A Vs 4B for the said characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am uncertain about full power Cyclops though.

 

[Confluctor]

I mean... He has literally zero relevant feats for tier 2 and 1.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

I mean... He has literally zero relevant feats for tier 2 and 1.

I agree but a possibly or likely shouldn't be that bad?

 

[Confluctor]

But why? We aren't giving actual characters who have tier 2 and 1 feats "likely or possibly" and are often disregarded, so why do it here?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

But why? We aren't giving actual characters who have tier 2 and 1 feats "likely or possibly" and are often disregarded, so why do it here?

I suggested it because he has the full Force. Hmmm maybe possibly higher would be better like we have for Rachel?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he reached the White Hot Room, and the power inside of him was referred to as infinite, for what it is worth.

 

[Confluctor]

I suggested it because he has the full Force. Hmmm maybe possibly higher would be better like we have for Rachel?

Eh, it can work.

Well, he reached the White Hot Room, and the power inside of him was referred to as infinite, for what it is worth.

We already discussed the WHR and why it wouldn't grant anything near T2. Additionally, yes, his power was said to be infinite, but Black Bolt's power was also describe infinite many times, so....

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Eh, it can work.

Its better that way if we don't want T1/2.

We already discussed the WHR and why it wouldn't grant anything near T2. Additionally, yes, his power was said to be infinite, but Black Bolt's power was also describe infinite many times, so....

Comparing Black Bolt to the Phoenix Force.... That's not a good comparison...

 

[Confluctor]

Not really, it is a right comparison. Know why? Because infinite power is meaningless.

 

[Antvasima]

We already discussed the WHR and why it wouldn't grant anything near T2. Additionally, yes, his power was said to be infinite, but Black Bolt's power was also describe infinite many times, so....

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[Antvasima]

Not really, it is a right comparison. Know why? Because infinite power is meaningless.

Well, hyperbolic claims of infinite power are recurrently meaningless at least.

 

[Confluctor]

Which seems to be the case here too unfortunately.

 

[LordTracer]

My final suggestion for these guys would be ‘At least 5-A, possibly 4-B’ with 1/5 of the Phoenix Force, 4-B for Scott and Emma with 1/2 of the Phoenix Force and ‘4-B, possibly far higher’ for Dark Phoenix Scott.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me.

 

[Confluctor]

Well-- nvm. Whatever others accept, will apply that.

I just want this to finish now

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

My final suggestion for these guys would be ‘At least 5-A, possibly 4-B’ with 1/5 of the Phoenix Force, 4-B for Scott and Emma with 1/2 of the Phoenix Force and ‘4-B, possibly far higher’ for Dark Phoenix Scott.

This seems the best way to go. I agree.

 

[Firestorm808]

Can someone summarize the final scaling chain we are working with for the revision proposal?