Marvel Comics - Phoenix Force downgrade! And revision for the Hosts

[Confluctor]

Yeah sure, I will do Emma's in a bit then do a justification/summary for all.

 

[Confluctor]

Emma scaling ONLY

1/5

• Uncanny X-Men 2012
  • #15
    • Locates Sinister despite his shield protecting him from virtually everything
      • the world is a psychic illusion in a way.
      • also can be used for her range
  • #17
    • All five burn Sinister
• Avengers 2012 #28
  • Tanks an attack from Red Hulk
  • Fights Thor and wins but Thor obviously harmed her quite a bit. In fact, he even destroyed her diamond form once
    • As I mentioned in a post above, Thor is 5-A for most parts of AvX, sans the beginning.
• Wolverine & the X-Men #13
  • Fights this Shi'ar warrior - Ava'Dara Naganandini, who possibly beat Ice Man
• AvX #7
  • Hawkeye does this to her but she was caught by surprise
    • Hawkeye upgrade to 5-A when?

1/2

• AvX #11
  • Fights Storm
  • Does this to a distracted Wanda
  • Fights Hulk
  • Weaker than Scott

 

[Confluctor]

Okay, so here are my conclusions and justifications so far:

Magik:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Stronger than the Thing and slashes the Red Hulk with her sword
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeats Thor alongside her brother

Colossus:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Defeated Gladiator alongside Namor
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeated Thor with his sister, Magik

Namor:

• 5-A
• Fought Thor, Red-Hulk, the Thing, weakened Doctor Stranger, and Gladiator, and was winning until the Scarlet Witch intervened.

Emma:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Fought and defeated Thor
• 1/2 - 5-A
  • Stronger than before. Fought Storm on equal grounds

Scott:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Fought and overpowered a team of Avengers, Thor, Red Hulk. Equally matched Gladiator in a physical brawl.
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeated Colossus and Magik when they were distracted, and then proceeded to steal their portion of the Phoenix Force.
  • Edit; the portion went to him and Emma.
• 1/2 - 5-A
  • Fought and overpowered Thor, Iron Man, Magneto, and Scarlet Witch alongside a large roster of Marvel heroes.
• 1 - At least 5-A, likely 4-B
  • Fought and overpowered Thor, Red Hulk, the Thing, Iceman, Nova (Sam), among many other heroes. Matched Wanda and Hope with Chi and Chaos for a bit before being overpowered as both are the Phoenix Force's direct weakness.

That's all I got for now, let me know what you guys think.


Note: the power scaling was everywhere in this comic, mainly trying to make the X-Men side seem superior. So some fights were definitely odd.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Questions...

1. Red Hulk (especially) and Hulk what reasons have to be just 5A and not 4B?
2. As the scaling of now Colussus is 5A in base.... Being a Phoenix Avatar just makes again 5A?
3. Why Thor should be just 5A against the Phoenixes? I get against others but against them... There is no indication that he was weakened after the Phoenix fight.
4. As Gladiator's profile stands now he is 4B. (I remember that he gets weaker by his confidence but why 5A?)

1 - At least 5-A, likely 4-B

• Fought and overpowered Thor, Red Hulk, the Thing, Iceman, Nova (Sam), among many other heroes. Matched Wanda and Hope with Chi and Chaos for a bit before being overpowered as both are the Phoenix Force's direct weakness.

Woah. You mean Dark Phoenix Cyclops? He was ascending to the White Hot Room. Ascending above the Universe was stated to me in the past to be a low 2C feat.

Edit1: Also there is another form of Phoenix Cyclops in Secret Wars which managed to burn God Doom (who now is low 1C making it more believable for that version to be 2A, possibly low 1C).

Edit2: Emma also has a Dark Phoenix form from Endsong ....

 

[Confluctor]

Red Hulk (especially) and Hulk what reasons have to be just 5A and not 4B?

Because Hulks have varying strengths, and they are not always at 4B. When they are at 4B, you can clearly see it

. As the scaling of now Colussus is 5A in base.... Being a Phoenix Avatar just makes again 5A?

Yes. But nowhere near T2 or 1

Why Thor should be just 5A against the Phoenixes?

Already answered above

As Gladiator's profile stands now he is 4B

His profile is outdated as hell. I am working on fixing that one day. He gets varied from 5a to 4b. Plus I already mentioned the messy power scaling earlier

You mean Dark Phoenix Cyclops? He was ascending to the White Hot Room. Ascending above the Universe was stated to me in the past to be a low 2C feat

Ascension to the White hot room imo doesn't mean anything ap wise. Unless marvel states that only those ascended can reach it, then maybe. But anyway, it's the heart of the universe/multiverse, it doesn't exist on an infinitely higher plane of existence.

Also there is another form of Phoenix Cyclops in Secret Wars which managed to burn God Doom

To my recalling, he only burnt his armour.

But anyway, Can be used, but not for these keys. That was post EE phoenix, so I don't think we can back scale. Instead, you can create a new key for it.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Because Hulks have varying strengths, and they are not always at 4B. When they are at 4B, you can clearly see it

Yes I know but Red Hulk was mad at Phoenix Emma. In a situation like this why shouldn't he be 4B...

Yes. But nowhere near T2 or 1

True but 5A is a low ball.... Like his Juggernaut form wouldn't it better to be something like At least 5A possibly 4B or At Least 5A up to 4B.

Already answered above

You didn't answer though why he should be weaker after the battle against the Phoenix. The Phoenixes are a threat to their whole world so Thor should be using his full strength against them at least. There is no in story reason...

Also, by Aaron's retcon, Firehair (Phoenix first human host irk) is the mother of Thor and the Phoenix in other battles doesn't let Old Phoenix Logan kill King Thor for a reason which is this one... Meaning that the Phoenixes can not kill Thor... But yeah this is after the event...

His profile is outdated as hell. I am working on fixing that one day. He gets varied from 5a to 4b. Plus I already mentioned the messy power scaling earlier

I get that but for the above scaling to work, you need to revise him first. You said messy scaling but I don't see how this affects Gladiator's situation. I don't remember him having any indication of being just 5A or weaker than full power against the Phoenix Five.

Ascension to the White hot room imo doesn't mean anything ap wise. Unless marvel states that only those ascended can reach it, then maybe. But anyway, it's the heart of the universe/multiverse, it doesn't exist on an infinitely higher plane of existence.

It's also a kind of afterlife... Existing as a plane above the Universe/Multiverse by the wiki's standards isn't enough for a low-2c rating? The Phoenix says it transcends the universe.

To my recalling, he only burnt his armour.

But anyway, Can be used, but not for these keys. That was post EE phoenix, so I don't think we can back scale. Instead, you can create a new key for it.

Burning his Armor and having being hurt (it was indicated) means hurting him. Yeah its not good for backscaling and it needs another key. So another thread.

 

[Confluctor]

Yes I know but Red Hulk was mad at Phoenix Emma. In a situation like this why shouldn't he be 4B...

Not really? I reread the issue 4 times since I began making this list and I didn't see any hints of 4-B or even him being super mad at Emma.

At least 5A possibly 4B or At Least 5A up to 4B.

But why?

You didn't answer though why he should be weaker after the battle against the Phoenix.

Ah yes, let Thor take on a "multiversal" entity, right it, and then gets heavily damaged, and yet still has enough power to go out on phoenix five...

Even that aside, as I said, the power scaling is wonky af. Thor was just there to get jobbed left and right. In the meantime, another comic was going on where Thor was doing much better...

Also Thor was shown equal to the likes of Thing, who is 5A and not 4B.

Existing as a plane above the Universe/Multiverse by the wiki's standards isn't enough for a low-2c rating?

Not always... Without more context, it's not much. And again, where does it say that the White Hot Room is infinitely above a 3D uni or 4D multi, and you need to ascend to reach it.

 

[LordTracer]

• 1/2 - 5-A
  • Fought and overpowered Thor, Iron Man, Magneto, and Scarlet Witch alongside a large roster of Marvel heroes.
• 1 - At least 5-A, likely 4-B
  • Fought and overpowered Thor, Red Hulk, the Thing, Iceman, Nova (Sam), among many other heroes. Matched Wanda and Hope with Chi and Chaos for a bit before being overpowered as both are the Phoenix Force's direct weakness.

Wanda is a straight up 4-B, so I don’t know why Scott would only be 5-A for overpowering her. Especially when Wanda attacked him with all she had (as she stated herself) and 50% Scott just negged it.

 

[Confluctor]

Honestly Wanda's 4B rating is kind sketchy, I don't know why got left behind when the big downgrade was happening.

But there are a few reasons for that. As I mentioned earlier, she was the best mentally or emotionally (see the lead up to the event), and even during the fight, she wasn't at her top form for various reasons;

• She saw too many of her close, extremely close friends "die"; vision and Hawkeye and you can see that for most parts of the event, she wasn't at her best. This is also kinda expanded upon in Uncanny Avengers.
• Additionally, I also mentioned she was tired. Because she was the only thing saving the avengers left and right.

Especially when Wanda attacked him with all she had (as she stated herself) and 50% Scott just negged it.

Also which scan specifically?

 

[Confluctor]

Actually upon look at her profile again just a moment ago, she isn't straight up 4-B as I thought. It says "At most, 4-B".

Also, I have forgotten the context of the scene, but I am pretty sure Thor was mind controlled. So, I find the fully 4-B a bit wonky

(Wanda does have 4b feats, but just not these ones).


But until Wanda's profile is properly fixed, Cyke's last key could get 4-B. But I don't see it for the other keys.

 

[LordTracer]

I don't know why got left behind when the big downgrade was happening.

She fought an enraged Thor while already injured, that seems like 4-B. In fact, she wasn’t left behind by the 5-A/4-B thread, she only has an ‘At most’ because of said thread.

Also which scan specifically?

The one currently on Cyclops’ profile for his 50% PF key.

 

[Confluctor]

Okay, fair. But that's also back scaling. Plus in Uncanny Avengers, Wanda was more powerful than shown in most of her appearances post HoM for various reasons.

But I don't see how she was 4B throughout most of this arc for the reasons I mentioned? Like yeah she attacked him and he negged it (somehow), but it still falls under the reasons I mentioned.

 

[The_Impress]

Wanda is a straight up 4-B

Deadass shouldn't be tbh.

smh so many revisions to do for poor me uMu

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Not really? I reread the issue 4 times since I began making this list and I didn't see any hints of 4-B or even him being super mad at Emma.

Here

But why?

Because regular Colosuss is already 5A and like Cyttorak said he and the Phoenix are not incompatible. Colossus has both powers even in Phoenix form so even for that he could get the ratings I said before...

Also Thor was shown equal to the likes of Thing, who is 5A and not 4B.

What? When? Aside from that Thor fought Emma but Emma tanked Laura's claws which the wiki here has at 4B. Also consistent with her taking a hit from a 4B Red Hulk. 1/2 Emma also hurts Wanda.

Ah yes, let Thor take on a "multiversal" entity, right it, and then gets heavily damaged, and yet still has enough power to go out on phoenix five...

You know by Aaron's current retcon that the Phoenix didn't want to kill Thor at all... There is also PIS.

Also to point out that Wanda's Chaos Magic hurts the hosts. That's why she is so effective against them.

About Gladiator:

His kid said some of his feats here which includes tearing a black hole with his hands and he doen't seem like I said weaker than 4B.

 

[Confluctor]

Here

I know, but its not enough for him to increase his power by few thousand times. And look at the next few pages where he fights Magneto...

Because regular Colosuss is already 5A and like Cyttorak said He and the Phoenix are not incompatible. Colossus has both powers even in Phoenix form so even for that he could get the ratings I said before...

Again, but why? The gap between 5-A and 4-C and then 4-B is INSANELY huge. He has the least amount of feats because of he relied on hax rather than AP, and his AP scaling leads only to 5-A.

What? When?

Look at the scans I posted for Namor

Emma tanked Laura's claws which the wiki here

.....So? Also it says their claws can hurt someone up to 4-B, and "tanking" it doesn't mean anything. So, what? 4-B deadpool too? 4-B everyone who has fought Logan?

You know by Aaron's current retcon that the Phoenix didn't want to kill Thor at all... There is also PIS.

And what does that lead to? Just cause Phoenix doesn't want to hurt him in this one story, it doesn't retcon many others where opposite was shown. Heck, even an earlier Aaron Thor comic story is retconed if I remember it correctly?

Also to point out that Wanda's Chaos Magic hurts the hosts. That's why she is so effective against them.

I know, I mentioned that a few times + Hope's chi stuff.

 

[Confluctor]

Actually thinking about it... Aside from the Loeb era, does Rulk even have any legit 4-B feats? Cause every other I see is around 5-A tier.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

You sure write fast... You didn't see my last edit.

About Gladiator:

His kid said some of his feats which includes tearing a black hole with his hands and he doen't seem like I said weaker than 4B.

Again, but why? The gap between 5-A and 4-C and then 4-B is INSANELY huge. He has the least amount of feats because of he relied on hax rather than AP, and his AP scaling leads only to 5-A.

Phoenix is an amp. It increases your current powers. Apart from that what I said that Colossus can use both powers even in Phoenix form. His Juggernaut key is 5A to 4B.

I know, but its not enough for him to increase his power by few thousand times. And look at the next few pages where he fights Magneto...

Why? We talk about Marvel here... And that's how Hulk's powers always work. They more mad the Hulk the stronger he gets. Fighting Magneto is indeed stupid but its not the worts thing in this event...

Look at the scans I posted for Namor

What I saw is that Red Hulk made Namor bleed and then the Thing punched him... Hulk's hit though was first and after that he stomped him. Being in standstill with Wanda wouldn't make Namor 4B though?

.....So? Also it says their claws can hurt someone up to 4-B, and "tanking" it doesn't mean anything. So, what? 4-B deadpool too? 4-B everyone who has fought Logan?

Logan has hurt Thanos with his claws. Its not incosistent here so it can be used. The point is that Emma at her diamond form was scratched.

I know, I mentioned that a few times + Hope's chi stuff.

I know but that means she is more effective against all of them. She barely could barely defeat Namor here and she tried at it.

And what does that lead to? Just cause Phoenix doesn't want to hurt him in this one story, it doesn't retcon many others where opposite was shown. Heck, even an earlier Aaron Thor comic story is retconed if I remember it correctly?

Call it a PIS whatever but Phoenix not wanting to hurt has been said in 2-3 stories...

Going to rest... Searching feats gets tiring

 

[Confluctor]

His kid said some of his feats which includes tearing a black hole with his hands and he doen't seem like I said weaker than 4B.

Black hole feats needs calculation. Honestly I don't get why they are automatically assumed as 4-B.

Phoenix is an amp. It increases your current powers. Apart from that what I said that Colossus can use both powers even in Phoenix form. His Juggernaut key is 5A to 4B.

I know, but the profile reasoning is rather poor. Anyway, why don't we just stick to the feats they have shown rather than a long chain of scaling. What are JugCol's 4-B feats?

They more mad the Hulk the stronger he get

I know, but there are a few problems with it. Look at Loeb's era and Pak's, 4-B Rulk would be much different. You can be angry Hulk and still 5-A.

And I don't think Rulk has any other 4-B feats outside of Loeb (which also goes up to Tier 1)

Being in standstill with Wanda

I already explained Wanda's condition above. She was nowhere near 4-B and currently her 4-B comes from a story that took place a year after this event, so that's just back scaling.

Logan has hurt Thanos with his claws

Piercing damage is one thing, and solar system level Dura is different. And again, it's a varied tier, it's not straight up 4-B. So by that logic we upgrade everyone who has been stabbed by wolverine all the way to 4-B? Many people have been stabbed by it and healed from it.

She barely could barely defeat Namor here and she tried at it.

See my reasoning above

Call it a PIS whatever but Phoenix not wanting to hurt has been said in 2-3 stories...

But all came from recent years which ignores wayyyyyy too much stuff.

And if she really didn't want to hurt him, then how did she nearly kill thor in #3/4? Odd logic, Aaron.

Going to rest

Peace out. Until you return

Searching feats gets tiring

Agreed.

 

[Eficiente]

I support the general idea here.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Just wondering, but how would this affect Iron Man's phoenix buster?

 

[The_Impress]

Initial CRT was, but I'm likely not gonna support downgrading Phoenix for the reasons presented, so we'll see

 

[Confluctor]

Well... I believe that should stay along with Hope and Saw's 2A/L1C key because they destroyed a conceptual entity? But I did mention that the scaling is wonky af in this comic.

But either way, those three won't be affected despite the scaling problem.

Just wondering, but how would this affect Iron Man's phoenix buster?

 

[Confluctor]

Bump

 

[Confluctor]

bump

 

[The_Impress]

Okay, so here are my conclusions and justifications so far:

Magik:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Stronger than the Thing and slashes the Red Hulk with her sword
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeats Thor alongside her brother

Colossus:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Defeated Gladiator alongside Namor
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeated Thor with his sister, Magik

Namor:

• 5-A
• Fought Thor, Red-Hulk, the Thing, weakened Doctor Stranger, and Gladiator, and was winning until the Scarlet Witch intervened.

Emma:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Fought and defeated Thor
• 1/2 - 5-A
  • Stronger than before. Fought Storm on equal grounds

Scott:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Fought and overpowered a team of Avengers, Thor, Red Hulk. Equally matched Gladiator in a physical brawl.
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeated Colossus and Magik when they were distracted, and then proceeded to steal their portion of the Phoenix Force.
• 1/2 - 5-A
  • Fought and overpowered Thor, Iron Man, Magneto, and Scarlet Witch alongside a large roster of Marvel heroes.
• 1 - At least 5-A, likely 4-B
  • Fought and overpowered Thor, Red Hulk, the Thing, Iceman, Nova (Sam), among many other heroes. Matched Wanda and Hope with Chi and Chaos for a bit before being overpowered as both are the Phoenix Force's direct weakness.

That's all I got for now, let me know what you guys think.


Note: the power scaling was everywhere in this comic, mainly trying to make the X-Men side seem superior. So some fights were definitely odd.

@Antvasima Can you call people to input on this specific

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to apply to me at least.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so here are my conclusions and justifications so far:

Magik:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Stronger than the Thing and slashes the Red Hulk with her sword
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeats Thor alongside her brother

Colossus:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Defeated Gladiator alongside Namor
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeated Thor with his sister, Magik

Namor:

• 5-A
• Fought Thor, Red-Hulk, the Thing, weakened Doctor Stranger, and Gladiator, and was winning until the Scarlet Witch intervened.

Emma:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Fought and defeated Thor
• 1/2 - 5-A
  • Stronger than before. Fought Storm on equal grounds

Scott:

• 1/5 - 5-A
  • Fought and overpowered a team of Avengers, Thor, Red Hulk. Equally matched Gladiator in a physical brawl.
• 1/4 - 5-A
  • Defeated Colossus and Magik when they were distracted, and then proceeded to steal their portion of the Phoenix Force.
  • Edit; the portion went to him and Emma.
• 1/2 - 5-A
  • Fought and overpowered Thor, Iron Man, Magneto, and Scarlet Witch alongside a large roster of Marvel heroes.
• 1 - At least 5-A, likely 4-B
  • Fought and overpowered Thor, Red Hulk, the Thing, Iceman, Nova (Sam), among many other heroes. Matched Wanda and Hope with Chi and Chaos for a bit before being overpowered as both are the Phoenix Force's direct weakness.

That's all I got for now, let me know what you guys think.


Note: the power scaling was everywhere in this comic, mainly trying to make the X-Men side seem superior. So some fights were definitely odd.

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Elizio33 @LordTracer

What do you think about this?

 

[Firestorm808]

I'll read this later.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Hello again. I am really busy these days and I don't have much time to reply to Confluctor's posts but I remebered that Dormammu waited for Magik to lose the Phoenix Force to make a move against her. Doesn't this mean that he was scared of Phoenix Magik?

 

[Confluctor]

the link doesn't work.

As for dormammu... Isn't this around the same era where a normal Cyke defeated him? And with rather ease too?

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

the link doesn't work.

As for dormammu... Isn't this around the same era where a normal Cyke defeated him? And with rather ease too?

Here.



Cyclops damaged hime which was silly but Magik with her Hell Lord powers defeated him.

 

[Confluctor]

Thanks for the link.

But no offence, how are we supposed to take this seriously when the same Dormammu lost to such a low tier character? Is the write treating Cyke as some sort of multiversal threat under his own power? Because otherwise its just stupid and imo, should disregarded as the writer has no idea how to scale them.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Because otherwise its just stupid and imo

I don't think we should call it stupid. To treat Dormammu as consistent Tier 2 is to treat Odin as consistently Tier 2 or 3, Superman as consistently Tier 4, or the treat the Flash as consistently having an IQ above room temperature. Even back in the Silver and Bronze Ages he got trashed or had incredibly bad showings. To complain about him not being whatever tier is just knocking on a comic following an already established trend of Dormammu not being some hyper competent universe buster.

As for the thread I don't think we should discount the 4-B rating and I think we should keep the Tier 2/1 stuff for Scott's full power.

The rest shouldn't get one though.

 

[Confluctor]

I don't think we should call it stupid.

Its PIS, which is stupid.

As for the thread I don't think we should discount the 4-B rating and I think we should keep the Tier 2/1 stuff for Scott's full power.

Why?

"Possibly 4-B", I can see. But a full blown 4-B? Because of a feat that happened a year later... That's just wrong. And as I mentioned earlier, ascendance quote thing is the only 2A/L1C thing we have. And if we treat that as 2A/L1C thing, then be ready to accept a lot of upgrades.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Its PIS, which is stupid.

Its no longer PIS if it happens multiple times. At that point its just the character being consistently not as effective as we treat them as on site.

Not suggesting a downgrade, just that like MMH or Silver Surfer they're just a bad metric to use to dispute something because they suck consistently.

Why?

I think the ones that clearly fight against Thor should keep their rating. He wasn't mentioned as being weakened afaik and some of his better showings come from this event.

The tier 2 stuff is the statement combined with scaling.

And if we treat that as 2A/L1C thing, then be ready to accept a lot of upgrades.

Not really. Its a statement that

• We know has happened before to other hosts and other hosts have preformed the feat
• We have no reason to doubt it

 

[Confluctor]

I think the ones that clearly fight against Thor should keep their rating.

Here is the problem with that tho. I already mentioned above that Thor wouldn't be operating at 4-B level after #3 or #4. Dude nearly died and then the only time he ever showed up was to get jobbed.

Now if you put them at 4B, might as well start upgrading Storm to 4B too. Because a 1/2 Emma was fighting equally against her.

Do you not see the problem?

better showings come from this event.

No, it doesn't. The only one is where he fights against Phoenix off panel. But guess what? Even vision was there and fighting iirc.

The tier 2 stuff is the statement combined with scaling

And once again, I ask why? Why should they get T2/1 when their feats CLEARLY contradicts it.

Not to beat around an old horse, but why keep Thor at 5A and 4B then? Clearly he is multiversal+.

Not really.

Care to provide scans for white hot room require T2/1 level of power to reach it?


I hope I don't sound rude, but these arguments don't make much sense to me why characters will get special treatment here when their feats are extremely contradictory. And also using back scaling.

 

[LordTracer]

About this whole Dormammu thing, I’m 100% sure that’s Modern Dormammu, who is 4-B at best, nowhere near Tier 2/1 like his Classic self.

Also about 4-B Phoenix Five, would 1/2 Scott (and 1/2 Emma) being ‘At least 5-A, possibly 4-B’ be acceptable?

 

[Confluctor]

Personally, I disagree. But if others accept it, I have nothing against it then.

As I mentioned earlier, the 4B thing comes from a scarlet witch feat which happened a year later (or at least 6-7 months later, just to be safe).

And I already mentioned my arguments for Thor. And also Gladiator. Who shouldn't be 4B straight up.

 

[Confluctor]

About this whole Dormammu thing, I’m 100% sure that’s Modern Dormammu, who is 4-B at best, nowhere near Tier 2/1 like his Classic self.

Make sense.

Unrelated but I THINK in the 2018 comic, Waid restored him to his earlier power levels. Tho it hasn't been demonstrated yet. So maybe modern dormamu isn't a lost cause yet.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Now if you put them at 4B, might as well start upgrading Storm to 4B too.

Storm didn't have an event amp and didn't casually overpower Thor.

but why keep Thor at 5A and 4B then?

Because Thor has about sixty years of other stuff that weigh him down to the point where he can't get a Tier 2 or 1 rating without an amp.

Even then we do give him a 2-A rating with certain powers like the God Blast.

Why should they get T2/1 when their feats CLEARLY contradicts it.

At full power that's just an AP fallacy. We scale plenty of people in DBS for example to Tier 2 despite having zero Tier 2 feats or showing. Just because Cyclops didn't nuke the multiverse doesn't mean he can't possibly scale to that level.

Though as before I'm only suggesting this a possible rating for his complete PF host. Not in any minor forms and not as a core rating.

Care to provide scans for white hot room require T2/1 level of power to reach it?

Its some weird multiverse nexus where everything sorta loops into itself.

But no, it doesn't require Tier 2/1 stuff to reach. Rachel and Psylocke got there with magic crystals during House of M iirc