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Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread

Fixxed said:
I think i found something interesting

「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」
"Each sanctuaries is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the root of the world is fixed, the number of fire dewdrops in da ku kadate is fixed, as is the number of flowers in this sanctuary."

Every sanctuaries of god is the microcosm of the world, so sanctuary like future world nafta and land of traces schned that everyone knows is a different time and space, and disconnected from mortal world. Even future world nafta stated that it's a another form/shape of the world

「其はあり得たかもしれぬ、もう一つの世界の形。咎人よ、汝を、限局世界の刑に処す」
"It is a another form of the world that could have been. I sentence thee, condemned man, to the punishment of a limited world."

So militia world is the time and space that encompasses another time and space and make them just like microcosm or subset of it

And if we take WoG's statement that every bubble is infinite in size, then we must put every bubble on 2A rating. Because like ultima says, it may not stated that it contain infinite universes but it stated that it could contain infinite universes

But i think there is someone that is sceptic on the WoG's statement, so i think possible rating is more make sense like 2A tier venuzdonoa

But i think i already fix that sceptical
Click to expand...
Link not opening
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Link not opening
Click to expand...
Here:

And this about the sceptical
Fixxed said:
Not the divine realm exist in the almost infinite sky, but the gate of divine realm

A place that even the demon tribe of 2,000 years ago could not reach in flesh and blood. The castle of the Demon Lords is heading in a straight line toward the faraway sky, which was once reached by the flying castle ship Xeridohevnus.

　Breaking through the clouds and blue sky, the vision eventually turned black.
This place is called the Black Sky Kokyu.

　Misha and the others gasp at the sight before them.

　The stars were shining brightly.

　The black sky was black, and they continued on their way.

　Eventually, as they slowed down, they saw a building made of the same material as the Delsogade.
What is that?
It is the lower part of the Delzogade. There is a gate of the divine world that leads to the azure sky of the gods. Two thousand years ago, I left the depths of the delzogade here in the sky in order to seal it with the Raised Wall of the Four Realms, Beno Even.

If you read carefully, Misha at that time explained first about the mortal world. when explaining that "black sky" is described in almost infinite size. but after adding azure sky it was immediately explained no end. clarified again with an explanation from the author himself that the sky in each bubble is infinite

The farther you move away from this earth, the more the black sky is stretched out, and the closer you get to nothingness. It is here, in the nearly infinite sky, that the divine world resides.

　The "azure sky of the gods" is added to the black sky.
There is no end to the black sky, which is stretched out forever.
Click to expand...
 
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Fixxed said:
Open page 3 on here:

And this about the sceptical
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Bro hate to says that thread giving me headache ☠️. Like those guys arguing like they don't know what they are talking. They are just bringing up WOG for everything.

By WN statements only we can make up so much better explanation.

Also i think we should consider zero layer as 4D Bubble and layer 1 as 5D. Later it's too vague though.

Zero layers bubble needs to reach its end and then need to evolve (Transcend) to perceive outside world and then they becomes silver bubbles.

If layers had infinite Bubbles then i could have said higher dimensional like you said if it's only countless don't know how to make an argument.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Bro hate to says that thread giving me headache ☠️. Like those guys arguing like they don't know what they are talking. They are just bringing up WOG for everything.

By WN statements only we can make up so much better explanation.

Also i think we should consider zero layer as 4D Bubble and layer 1 as 5D. Later it's too vague though.

Zero layers bubble needs to reach its end and then need to evolve (Transcend) to perceive outside world and then they becomes silver bubbles.

If layers had infinite Bubbles then i could have said higher dimensional like you said if it's only countless don't know how to make an argument.
Click to expand...
From what i know about higher dimensional, you need a space as big as aleph 1. Not just infinite space and time that contain infinite spaces and times, that is only equal to aleph 0
 
Fixxed said:
From what i know about higher dimensional, you need a space as big as aleph 1. Not just infinite space and time that contain infinite spaces and times, that is only equal to aleph 0
Click to expand...
Actually it's specified in wiki FAQ explanation page. Atleast we could argue for possibly higher dimensional
 
A little heads up guys... I won't be available most of the time around here, my internet has been down for 3 days, still not fixed hahaha.
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In the Silver Water Holy Sea, 14,000 years ago.
　Still before the birth of the creator god Militia, the name of its bubble world is Erenesia.
　In other words, there is a discrepancy in time between the Silver Sea and that small world.
　From the perspective of the Militia world, it was more than 700 million years ago.
　It is a love story that could not be put into words, which began in the land of the demon tribe, Racafalseit.

It's clearly mentioned there is different time flow in Silver Sea
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
In the Silver Water Holy Sea, 14,000 years ago.
　Still before the birth of the creator god Militia, the name of its bubble world is Erenesia.
　In other words, there is a discrepancy in time between the Silver Sea and that small world.
　From the perspective of the Militia world, it was more than 700 million years ago.
　It is a love story that could not be put into words, which began in the land of the demon tribe, Racafalseit.

It's clearly mentioned there is different time flow in Silver Sea
Click to expand...
Hmm, I think it is not necessary to emphasize it, but I had already brought such a statment some time ago, and it is well presented in Null's blog.:eek:
 
Here's my VERY ROUGH first draft of the proposals for the cosmology revision CRT. I decided to create this rough draft just to get the idea of the cosmology revision started. I still strongly suggest that we wait for LN Volume 11 to release and that all the verse supporters work together on the CRT to gather as much info as possible for a reliable revision.
I don't really properly know anyone else's explanations for certain proposals, so if you want to add a different explanation for a certain proposal, by all means just post it here, and if it's deemed reliable enough by supporters it can be added to the draft.
I have very little information to support the potential 2-C worlds proposal, so I would appreciate if other people, like @InfiniteCosmology, can help me with gathering supporting info.
I also kinda forgot the argument for the potential 1-B Silver Sea proposal, because I don't really support the idea of 1-B Silver Sea anymore (at least layers 0-99), so other people will likely have to provide a better explanation for the proposal.
If you want to provide any extra supporting scans, which is most likely necessary IMO, please just remember that you have to provide the corresponding chapter numbers as well.

It is essential that you first read the cosmology blog before evaluating any of the following proposals. Most relevant scans will be located in the cosmology blog for the time being to avoid cluttering the draft with scans.

Quoting boxes don't seem to work very well with spoiler boxes, so just reload the page if none of the quoting boxes show a "Click to expand..." option.

From this wiki's Universe page:

It is common for fictional characters to be scaled based on creating one or multiple "Worlds", "Dimensions", or "Realms". However, many users may often be confused on whether those are synonyms of universes or simply pocket realities. They may have indications of being quite large, but they still require some more in depth or specific evidence to truly be universes. Otherwise, they will simply be pocket realities judged by their known size.

- These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.
-- If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
-- If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
-- If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
-- If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.
-- Being labelled as "Entire Alternate Realities" generally indicates them being called universes, but the context and semantics should preferably be specified.
-- If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.

- These statements are not enough to call them universes; they may support the ideas when backed up by examples above, but none of them individually or altogether may be enough.
-- Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
-- Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.
-- A realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up.
-- The Worlds being different bodies of space is not enough to consider them universes, as that does not quite prove they have different timelines. Especially if they are afterlives. Afterlives often are different bodies of space, but are generally condensed in the same timeline unless there's more proof otherwise.
-- Being "Different Worlds, Realms, or Dimensions" requires more elaborate context and even "Dreams, Imaginations and Ideas becoming reality" is not enough to say the "Worlds" are entire universes. "Becoming Reality" often simply refers more to "Becoming a piece of reality" as opposed to each and every Dream becoming and "Entire Reality".
-- Saying that it "Mirrors your world" does not automatically equate to mirroring the entire universe you came from as World can also mean planet. And it can even refer to locations in between planet and Universe. And even if the realms are larger than planet sized, the "Your World" aspect often refers to specific sceneries rather than the entire Space-Time Continuum. And just because world frequently refers to universe doesn't mean everything larger than a planet that is called a world is a universe.
Click to expand...

The term "world" usually refers to a universe in Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha (MGnF).
Worlds are described as having endless and endlessly stretching size. The Author explanation also states that worlds have infinite size. It is impossible to leave a world by conventional means, like flying past the endlessly stretched space in the world. The space in a world is distorted, and therefore something that flies straight up, naturally changes direction, goes around the world and comes out from below. The world contains "other dimensions" and "different worlds or realms". The Black Sky is a part of the world that surrounds the earth, and celestial bodies like the sun, moon and stars are located in the Black Sky. Unevolved worlds all have a different flow of time, causing worlds to have different timeline lengths, but once a world evolves its flow of time syncs up with time in the Silver Sea. All worlds have a spherical shape, resembling a bubble, therefore worlds are also referred to as "bubbles", "bubble worlds", or "silver bubbles".
One "world-destroying" magic is outright stated to be capable of destroying "the entire universe", and shown to be capable of destroying an entire silver bubble. Another "world-destroying" magic is shown to be capable of destroying a "boundless world" and a 70 billion years section of a world's timeline.

Because of the above information, I strongly believe that it is now undoubtable that the term "world" usually refers to a universe, not a planet, and that if anyone wants to argue that the term "world" refers to a planet/not a universe in a certain statement, that they are then required to provide evidence for why it would refer to a planet/would not refer to a universe.
I also suggest that all worlds should be treated as separate space-time continuums (universes) in this wiki, as there are no feats/statements that contradict the notion that worlds are separate space-time continuums.

2-C/2-B worlds proposal:

"Hmm. Well, it varies outside. You were born in the Withering Desert, one of Fundamental Laws Cyclic Gardens Da Ku Kadate. There are three more divine domains in the Fundamental Laws Cyclic Garden, and many countless divine domains outside of it. It is called the azure sky of the gods, the land of the god tribe. If you pass through the gates of the divine realm, you will find the land of the demon tribe in which I was born and the land of human beings."
- WN Chapter 438
Click to expand...

"Each divine domain is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the source of the world is fixed, so is the amount of fire dew in Da Ku Kadate, and the number of flowers in this divine domain."
- WN Chapter 425
Click to expand...

The Silver Water Holy Sea, also referred to as simply the Silver Sea, is stated to have endless size and stated multiple times to contain countless worlds in the shape of bubbles, and to be composed of at least 99 layers, beginning from the shallowest layer (layer 0) and going deeper to the deepest currently accessible layer (layer 99). It is also stated that there are worlds deeper than layer 99, and that it is usually impossible to even perceive their existence. The Author explanation stated that there are countless bubbles in each layer, that each layer has infinite size, and that there are many layers deeper than layer 99.
The Silver Sea in not some kind of empty non-physical void that simply contains countless universes, but is actually a physical space with physical "silver water" that encompasses countless worlds.

Because of the above information, I suggest that the Silver Sea should at the very least be treated as countless*99+ into tier 2-B, if worlds are accepted as being separate space-time continuums, as the Silver Sea is composed of 99+ layers, and each layer contains countless universes, all of which are separate space-time continuums in the shape of bubbles.

2-A Silver Sea proposal:

Because the Silver Sea is a physical space, and not some kind of empty non-physical void, and each layer of the Silver Sea has endless/infinite size, and should therefore theoretically be able to contain an infinite number of universes, each layer of the Silver Sea could potentially be treated as a 2-A structure.
I personally am not sure whether or not the Silver Sea should be treated as above bassline into tier 2-A tho.

Low 1-C Silver Sea proposal:

From the Tiering System FAQ page:

Q: When are higher dimensions valid, then?
A: One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify.

Q: How do temporal dimensions impact on tiering?
A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any amounts of dimensions, and is also the reason destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A). So, for example, a spacetime continuum comprising two temporal dimensions (Instead of just one) would have an additional time direction whose "snapshots" correspond to the whole of a 4-dimensional spacetime, and so on and so forth.
Click to expand...

It is implied that the Silver Sea itself is a timeline/space-time continuum that contains the separate space-time continuums (worlds). Because each layer of the Silver Sea has endless/infinite size, and contains countless worlds (theoretically able to contain an infinite number of worlds) which also has endless/infinite size, the space between worlds can potentially be considered a "higher-order space" (larger infinite compared to infinite 4-D space-time continuum). A certain world has a timeline going back 700 million years ago, but it is only about 14,000 years old in the Silver Sea, therefore the Silver Sea potentially has its own timeline.
Just as a 4-D timeline contains uncountably infinite snapshots of 3-D space, a 5-D timeline would contain uncountably infinite snapshots of a 4-D space-time continuum. A world is a 4-D space time continuum, so destroying it in a single moment in a higher timeline would be Low 2-C, but if you were to destroy a world for 10 sec in a higher timeline for example, it would be equal to destroying uncountably infinite snapshots of the world (4-D space-time continuum).
(I know vsbw doesn't treat destroying sections of a timeline as uncountably infinite tho, so destroying 10 sec of a higher timeline wouldn't qualify as Low 1-C here, but it was just used as an example.)


Because of the above information, the Silver Sea could potentially be treated as a Low 1-C structure (5-D). However, the information for this proposal is rather vague, so I personally am only suggesting a likely/possible Low 1-C rating. Only Venuzdonoa and people who scale to it would be granted this rating.

The term "innumerable" will be used as a synonym for the term "countless".
Each world in the Silver Sea exists in a power hierarchy of layers. Magic power, order (laws and concepts), Fire Dew, and magical laws flow from shallow to deep.
The overall power, meaning "strength, speed, toughness, magic power, everything", as well as the strength of order (laws and concepts) from a deeper world is at least innumerably greater than that of a shallower world. The difference between layers is compared to the difference between dimensions, but it is not stated that deeper layers are higher dimensions.
Magic capable of destroying an entire shallower world (space-time continuum) cannot destroy an ordinary object (like a ship) in a deeper world. The matter in a deeper world is also stronger than any of the matter in a shallower world.

Because of the above information, I suggest that destroying deeper worlds should at the very least be treated as unquantifiably greater (innumerably greater)*whatever layer they are located in, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, destroying a world from layer 21 would be unquantifiable*21 into tier Low 2-C/2-C.
Inhabitants of a deeper world would then be treated as unquantifiably greater (innumerably greater)*whatever layer they are located in minus 1, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, any inhabitant from a world located in layer 21 would be unquantifiable*20 into tier Low 2-C/2-C, because while they would be capable of easily destroying a world from layer 20, they would not normally be capable of destroying a world in their own layer.

Infinitely into Low 2-C/2-C proposal:

High 3-A is infinite AP and Low 2-C is uncountably infinite AP because there are uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of the 3-D universe in the timeline.
Normally, a single 'snapshot' of an entire universe is either 3-A or High 3-A, so destroying an entire space-time continuum is equivalent to destroying uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of a 3-A/High 3-A structure.
However, if the 3-D aspect of a deeper world (this includes a single 'snapshot' of a deeper world) is considered to have unquantifiable into Low 2-C/2-C durability, then destroying an entire space-time continuum of a deeper world is equivalent to destroying uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of a unquantifiable into Low 2-C/2-C durability structure.
Therefore, to destroy the entire 4-D space-time continuum of a deeper world, you would possibly need uncountably infinite greater AP than the baseline Low 2-C/2-C AP needed to normally destroy an entire space-time continuum (world).
I personally do not know if the above logic is accurate or not.

Because of the above information, if it is deemed accurate, then destroying deeper worlds could potentially be treated as infinitely greater*whatever layer they are located in, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, destroying a world from layer 21 would be infinitely*21 into tier Low 2-C/2-C.
Inhabitants of a deeper world would then be treated as infinitely greater*whatever layer they are located in minus 1, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, any inhabitant from a world located in layer 21 would be infinitely*20 into tier Low 2-C/2-C, because while they would be capable of easily destroying a world from layer 20, they would not normally be capable of destroying a world in their own layer.

1-B proposal:

The Sovereign of a world can use their own world and other worlds under their control as shogi pieces in a game of 'Silver Water Shogi'. Silver Water Shogi uses the Fire Dew of worlds to create shogi pieces. It is stated multiple times that using the shogi pieces in Silver Water Shogi is equivalent to using the worlds themselves as pieces. If a shogi piece is destroyed, the corresponding world is also destroyed.

Because of all the information provided in the "Power Hierarchy" section so far, deeper layers could potentially be treated as higher levels of existence, and therefore the entire Silver Sea from layer 0 up to layer 99 could be treated as 1-B. Because layer 0 is considered 4-D, layer 1 would be considered 4-D+1 (1 deeper layer), i.e. "5-D", and so forth up to layer 99, which would be considered 4-D+99 (99 deeper layers), i.e. "103-D".

Also, I've always been iffy on using the presumed Author explanation, because I didn't get it directly from the author and I cannot 100% confirm that the author truly wrote the explanation. However, I think it is likely that the author truly wrote this explanation based on how the background of the message looks, and I know most verse supporters don't care about this that much, so I'm still fine with using it for now. Just be warned that it could still potentially, although unlikely, be fake.
 
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Well, referring to whether the SS should be treated as Above baseline or not, I have some theories, its specified the clear difference that exists between the layers, but it is not specified that the layers themselves have the same differences as the previous ones we already know, we know that if you use a spell to destroy a world (4-D) of layer 1 you couldnt destroy even a simple ship, but we do not know if you can completely destroy layer 1 then you could destroy layer 2? Will there be the previously mentioned difference? Idk... We will assume that yes, then in this case it would provide the same difference that exists with the worlds therefore, the SS should scale above the layers by being a 2-A structure immensely superior to the same layers (2-A) that for obvious reasons should be superior in all aspects.

In short, the difference that exists between the worlds in the layers would also apply to the layers themselves? World from layer 2 -------->>>>> World from layer 1 but Layer 2------->>>> Layer 1????
 
imZer0Null said:
Here's my VERY ROUGH first draft of the proposals for the cosmology revision CRT. I decided to create this rough draft just to get the idea of the cosmology revision started. I still strongly suggest that we wait for LN Volume 11 to release and that all the verse supporters work together on the CRT to gather as much info as possible for a reliable revision.
I don't really properly know anyone else's explanations for certain proposals, so if you want to add a different explanation for a certain proposal, by all means just post it here, and if it's deemed reliable enough by supporters it can be added to the draft.
I have very little information to support the potential 2-C worlds proposal, so I would appreciate if other people, like @InfiniteCosmology, can help me with gathering supporting info.
I also kinda forgot the argument for the potential 1-B Silver Sea proposal, because I don't really support the idea of 1-B Silver Sea anymore (at least layers 0-99), so other people will likely have to provide a better explanation for the proposal.
If you want to provide any extra supporting scans, which is most likely necessary IMO, please just remember that you have to provide the corresponding chapter numbers as well.

It is essential that you first read the cosmology blog before evaluating any of the following proposals. Most relevant scans will be located in the cosmology blog for the time being to avoid cluttering the draft with scans.

Quoting boxes don't seem to work very well with spoiler boxes, so just reload the page if none of the quoting boxes show a "Click to expand..." option.

From this wiki's Universe page:



The term "world" usually refers to a universe in Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha (MGnF).
Worlds are described as having endless and endlessly stretching size. The presumed Author explanation stated that worlds have infinite size. It is impossible to leave a world by conventional means, like flying past the endlessly stretched space in the world. The space in a world is distorted, and therefore something that flies straight up, naturally changes direction, goes around the world and comes out from below. The world contains "other dimensions" and "different worlds or realms". The Black Sky is a part of the world that surrounds the earth, and celestial bodies like the sun, moon and stars are located in the Black Sky. Unevolved worlds all have a different flow of time, causing worlds to have different timeline lengths, but once a world evolves its flow of time syncs up with time in the Silver Sea. All worlds have a spherical shape, resembling a bubble, therefore worlds are also referred to as "bubbles", "bubble worlds", or "silver bubbles".
One "world-destroying" magic is outright stated to be capable of destroying "the entire universe", and shown to be capable of destroying an entire silver bubble. Another "world-destroying" magic is shown to be capable of destroying a "boundless world" and a 70 billion years section of a world's timeline.

Because of the above information, I strongly believe that it is now undoubtable that the term "world" usually refers to a universe, not a planet, and that if anyone wants to argue that the term "world" refers to a planet/not a universe in a certain statement, that they are then required to provide evidence for why it would refer to a planet/would not refer to a universe.
I also suggest that all worlds should be treated as separate space-time continuums (universes) in this wiki, as there are no feats/statements that contradict the notion that worlds are separate space-time continuums.

2-C worlds proposal:

...

The Silver Water Holy Sea, also referred to as simply the Silver Sea, is stated multiple times to contain countless worlds in the shape of bubbles, and to be composed of at least 99 layers, beginning from the shallowest layer (layer 0) and going deeper to the deepest currently accessible layer (layer 99), and these layers are stated to be "unimaginably wide". It is also stated that there are worlds deeper than layer 99, and that it is usually impossible to even perceive their existence. The presumed Author explanation stated that there are countless bubbles in each layer, that each layer has infinite size, and that there are many layers deeper than layer 99.
The Silver Sea in not some kind of empty non-physical void that simply contains countless universes, but is actually a physical space with physical "silver water" that encompasses countless worlds.

Because of the above information, I suggest that the Silver Sea should at the very least be treated as countless*99+ into tier 2-B, if worlds are accepted as being separate space-time continuums, as the Silver Sea is composed of 99+ layers, and each layer contains countless universes, all of which are separate space-time continuums in the shape of bubbles.

2-A Silver Sea proposal:

Because the Silver Sea is a physical space, and not some kind of empty non-physical void, and each layer of the Silver Sea supposedly has infinite size, and should therefore theoretically be able to contain an infinite number of universes, each layer of the Silver Sea could potentially be treated as a 2-A structure.
I personally am not sure whether or not the Silver Sea should be treated as above bassline into tier 2-A tho.

Low 1-C Silver Sea proposal:

From the Tiering System FAQ page:



It is implied that the Silver Sea itself is a space-time continuum that contains the separate space-time continuums (worlds). Because each layer of the Silver Sea supposedly has infinite size, and contains countless worlds (theoretically able to contain an infinite number of worlds) which also has endless/infinite size, the space between worlds can potentially be considered a "higher-order space" (larger infinite compared to infinite 3-D space). A certain world has a timeline going back 700 million years ago, but it is stated to only be about 14,000 years old in the Silver Sea, therefore the Silver Sea potentially has its own timeline.
Just as a 4-D timeline contains uncountably infinite snapshots of 3-D space, a 5-D timeline would contain uncountably infinite snapshots of a 4-D space-time continuum. A world is a 4-D space time continuum, so destroying it in a single moment in a higher timeline would be Low 2-C, but if you were to destroy a world for 10 sec in a higher timeline for example, it would be equal to destroying uncountably infinite snapshots of the world (4-D space-time continuum).
(I know vsbw doesn't treat destroying sections of a timeline as uncountably infinite tho, so destroying 10 sec of a higher timeline wouldn't qualify as Low 1-C here, but it was just used as an example.)

Because of the above information, the Silver Sea could potentially be treated as a Low 1-C structure (5-D). However, the information for this proposal is rather vague, so I personally am only suggesting a likely/possible Low 1-C rating. Only Venuzdonoa and people who scale to it would be granted this rating.

The term "innumerable" will be used as a synonym for the term "countless".
Each world in the Silver Sea exists in a power hierarchy of layers. Magic power, order (laws and concepts), Fire Dew, and magical laws flow from shallow to deep.
The overall power, meaning "strength, speed, toughness, magic power, everything", as well as the strength of order (laws and concepts) from a deeper world is at least innumerably greater than that of a shallower world. The difference between layers is compared to the difference between dimensions, but it is not stated that deeper layers are higher dimensions.
Magic capable of destroying an entire shallower world (space-time continuum) cannot destroy an ordinary object (like a ship) in a deeper world. The matter in a deeper world is also stronger than any of the matter in a shallower world.

Because of the above information, I suggest that destroying deeper worlds should at the very least be treated as unquantifiably greater (innumerably greater)*whatever layer they are located in, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, destroying a world from layer 21 would be unquantifiable*21 into tier Low 2-C/2-C.
Inhabitants of a deeper world would then be treated as unquantifiably greater (innumerably greater)*whatever layer they are located in minus 1, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, any inhabitant from a world located in layer 21 would be unquantifiable*20 into tier Low 2-C/2-C, because while they would be capable of easily destroying a world from layer 20, they would not normally be capable of destroying a world in their own layer.

Infinitely into Low 2-C/2-C proposal:

High 3-A is infinite AP and Low 2-C is uncountably infinite AP because there are uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of the 3-D universe in the timeline.
Normally, a single 'snapshot' of an entire universe is either 3-A or High 3-A, so destroying an entire space-time continuum is equivalent to destroying uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of a 3-A/High 3-A structure.
However, if the 3-D aspect of a deeper world (this includes a single 'snapshot' of a deeper world) is considered to have unquantifiable into Low 2-C/2-C durability, then destroying an entire space-time continuum of a deeper world is equivalent to destroying uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of a unquantifiable into Low 2-C/2-C durability structure.
Therefore, to destroy the entire 4-D space-time continuum of a deeper world, you would possibly need uncountably infinite greater AP than the baseline Low 2-C/2-C AP needed to normally destroy an entire space-time continuum (world).
I personally do not know if the above logic is accurate or not.

Because of the above information, if it is deemed accurate, then destroying deeper worlds could potentially be treated as infinitely greater*whatever layer they are located in, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, destroying a world from layer 21 would be infinitely*21 into tier Low 2-C/2-C.
Inhabitants of a deeper world would then be treated as infinitely greater*whatever layer they are located in minus 1, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, any inhabitant from a world located in layer 21 would be infinitely*20 into tier Low 2-C/2-C, because while they would be capable of easily destroying a world from layer 20, they would not normally be capable of destroying a world in their own layer.

1-B proposal:

The Sovereign of a world can use their own world and other worlds under their control as shogi pieces in a game of 'Silver Water Shogi'. Silver Water Shogi uses the Fire Dew of worlds to create shogi pieces. It is stated multiple times that using the shogi pieces in Silver Water Shogi is equivalent to using the worlds themselves as pieces. If a shogi piece is destroyed, the corresponding world is also destroyed.

Because of all the information provided in the "Power Hierarchy" section so far, deeper layers could potentially be treated as higher levels of existence, and therefore the entire Silver Sea from layer 0 up to layer 99 could be treated as 1-B. Because layer 0 is considered 4-D, layer 1 would be considered 4-D+1 (1 deeper layer), i.e. "5-D", and so forth up to layer 99, which would be considered 4-D+99 (99 deeper layers), i.e. "103-D".

Also, I've always been iffy on using the presumed Author explanation, because I didn't get it directly from the author and I cannot 100% confirm that the author truly wrote the explanation. However, I think it is likely that the author truly wrote this explanation based on how the background of the message looks, and I know most verse supporters don't care about this that much, so I'm still fine with using it for now. Just be warned that it could still potentially, although unlikely, be fake.
Click to expand...
Great.

1. Worlds have countless realms so we should be able argue it to multi to Multi+ if we consider they all are same like future world.
2. Bubble world can't perceive outside world because it hasn't evolved to the point where it can perceive it. We should treat it as Transcendency. It's stated Confirmist is end of life or something in the world and going beyond that gaves the bubble world to perceive outside world.
3. Shogi pieces is great example. Also you can use magic bullet world using shallow layer bubbles as bullets.
4. Anos couldn't even hurt gege because of order(reality) of the magic bullet world and he used Nirvana seven steps to amp himself and able to affect Gege. We know that amps him infinitely above. So he kinda Transcends ( can be argued just saying)

I will give you some other information if i found any. I am kinda busy in IRL
 
Also zero to layer 1 is like Transcending one dimension by perceiving the outside world and then we can make an argument that layer 1 to 2 is same thing.
 
I had a discussion with Null about the possibility of the universes being treated as 2-A a few days ago but he rejected me, I'm very sad....
 
Dereck03 said:
I had a discussion with Null about the possibility of the universes being treated as 2-A a few days ago but he rejected me, I'm very sad....
Click to expand...
Atleast it should be 2B even if we don't consider that as 2A. Anos mentioned there are countless realms in Azure sky and each has infinite sky with different space time
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
1. Worlds have countless realms so we should be able argue it to multi to Multi+ if we consider they all are same like future world.
Click to expand...
You should please provide a supporting scan with its corresponding chapter number when you have the time.

Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Also you can use magic bullet world using shallow layer bubbles as bullets.
Click to expand...
Same as above.

Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Anos mentioned there are countless realms in Azure sky and each has infinite sky with different space time.
Click to expand...
Same as above.
 
imZer0Null said:
You should please provide a supporting scan with its corresponding chapter number when you have the time.
Click to expand...
Yeah sure.
Btw what do you think about this

Bubble world can't perceive outside world because it hasn't evolved to the point where it can perceive it. We should treat it as Transcendency. It's stated Confirmist is end of life or something in the world and going beyond that gaves the bubble world to perceive outside world.
Click to expand...
Also zero to layer 1 is like Transcending one dimension by perceiving the outside world and then we can make an argument that layer 1 to 2 is same thing.
Click to expand...
 
imZer0Null said:
Here's my VERY ROUGH first draft of the proposals for the cosmology revision CRT. I decided to create this rough draft just to get the idea of the cosmology revision started. I still strongly suggest that we wait for LN Volume 11 to release and that all the verse supporters work together on the CRT to gather as much info as possible for a reliable revision.
I don't really properly know anyone else's explanations for certain proposals, so if you want to add a different explanation for a certain proposal, by all means just post it here, and if it's deemed reliable enough by supporters it can be added to the draft.
I have very little information to support the potential 2-C worlds proposal, so I would appreciate if other people, like @InfiniteCosmology, can help me with gathering supporting info.
I also kinda forgot the argument for the potential 1-B Silver Sea proposal, because I don't really support the idea of 1-B Silver Sea anymore (at least layers 0-99), so other people will likely have to provide a better explanation for the proposal.
If you want to provide any extra supporting scans, which is most likely necessary IMO, please just remember that you have to provide the corresponding chapter numbers as well.

It is essential that you first read the cosmology blog before evaluating any of the following proposals. Most relevant scans will be located in the cosmology blog for the time being to avoid cluttering the draft with scans.

Quoting boxes don't seem to work very well with spoiler boxes, so just reload the page if none of the quoting boxes show a "Click to expand..." option.

From this wiki's Universe page:



The term "world" usually refers to a universe in Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha (MGnF).
Worlds are described as having endless and endlessly stretching size. The presumed Author explanation stated that worlds have infinite size. It is impossible to leave a world by conventional means, like flying past the endlessly stretched space in the world. The space in a world is distorted, and therefore something that flies straight up, naturally changes direction, goes around the world and comes out from below. The world contains "other dimensions" and "different worlds or realms". The Black Sky is a part of the world that surrounds the earth, and celestial bodies like the sun, moon and stars are located in the Black Sky. Unevolved worlds all have a different flow of time, causing worlds to have different timeline lengths, but once a world evolves its flow of time syncs up with time in the Silver Sea. All worlds have a spherical shape, resembling a bubble, therefore worlds are also referred to as "bubbles", "bubble worlds", or "silver bubbles".
One "world-destroying" magic is outright stated to be capable of destroying "the entire universe", and shown to be capable of destroying an entire silver bubble. Another "world-destroying" magic is shown to be capable of destroying a "boundless world" and a 70 billion years section of a world's timeline.

Because of the above information, I strongly believe that it is now undoubtable that the term "world" usually refers to a universe, not a planet, and that if anyone wants to argue that the term "world" refers to a planet/not a universe in a certain statement, that they are then required to provide evidence for why it would refer to a planet/would not refer to a universe.
I also suggest that all worlds should be treated as separate space-time continuums (universes) in this wiki, as there are no feats/statements that contradict the notion that worlds are separate space-time continuums.

2-C worlds proposal:

...

The Silver Water Holy Sea, also referred to as simply the Silver Sea, is stated multiple times to contain countless worlds in the shape of bubbles, and to be composed of at least 99 layers, beginning from the shallowest layer (layer 0) and going deeper to the deepest currently accessible layer (layer 99), and these layers are stated to be "unimaginably wide". It is also stated that there are worlds deeper than layer 99, and that it is usually impossible to even perceive their existence. The presumed Author explanation stated that there are countless bubbles in each layer, that each layer has infinite size, and that there are many layers deeper than layer 99.
The Silver Sea in not some kind of empty non-physical void that simply contains countless universes, but is actually a physical space with physical "silver water" that encompasses countless worlds.

Because of the above information, I suggest that the Silver Sea should at the very least be treated as countless*99+ into tier 2-B, if worlds are accepted as being separate space-time continuums, as the Silver Sea is composed of 99+ layers, and each layer contains countless universes, all of which are separate space-time continuums in the shape of bubbles.

2-A Silver Sea proposal:

Because the Silver Sea is a physical space, and not some kind of empty non-physical void, and each layer of the Silver Sea supposedly has infinite size, and should therefore theoretically be able to contain an infinite number of universes, each layer of the Silver Sea could potentially be treated as a 2-A structure.
I personally am not sure whether or not the Silver Sea should be treated as above bassline into tier 2-A tho.

Low 1-C Silver Sea proposal:

From the Tiering System FAQ page:



It is implied that the Silver Sea itself is a space-time continuum that contains the separate space-time continuums (worlds). Because each layer of the Silver Sea supposedly has infinite size, and contains countless worlds (theoretically able to contain an infinite number of worlds) which also has endless/infinite size, the space between worlds can potentially be considered a "higher-order space" (larger infinite compared to infinite 3-D space). A certain world has a timeline going back 700 million years ago, but it is stated to only be about 14,000 years old in the Silver Sea, therefore the Silver Sea potentially has its own timeline.
Just as a 4-D timeline contains uncountably infinite snapshots of 3-D space, a 5-D timeline would contain uncountably infinite snapshots of a 4-D space-time continuum. A world is a 4-D space time continuum, so destroying it in a single moment in a higher timeline would be Low 2-C, but if you were to destroy a world for 10 sec in a higher timeline for example, it would be equal to destroying uncountably infinite snapshots of the world (4-D space-time continuum).
(I know vsbw doesn't treat destroying sections of a timeline as uncountably infinite tho, so destroying 10 sec of a higher timeline wouldn't qualify as Low 1-C here, but it was just used as an example.)

Because of the above information, the Silver Sea could potentially be treated as a Low 1-C structure (5-D). However, the information for this proposal is rather vague, so I personally am only suggesting a likely/possible Low 1-C rating. Only Venuzdonoa and people who scale to it would be granted this rating.

The term "innumerable" will be used as a synonym for the term "countless".
Each world in the Silver Sea exists in a power hierarchy of layers. Magic power, order (laws and concepts), Fire Dew, and magical laws flow from shallow to deep.
The overall power, meaning "strength, speed, toughness, magic power, everything", as well as the strength of order (laws and concepts) from a deeper world is at least innumerably greater than that of a shallower world. The difference between layers is compared to the difference between dimensions, but it is not stated that deeper layers are higher dimensions.
Magic capable of destroying an entire shallower world (space-time continuum) cannot destroy an ordinary object (like a ship) in a deeper world. The matter in a deeper world is also stronger than any of the matter in a shallower world.

Because of the above information, I suggest that destroying deeper worlds should at the very least be treated as unquantifiably greater (innumerably greater)*whatever layer they are located in, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, destroying a world from layer 21 would be unquantifiable*21 into tier Low 2-C/2-C.
Inhabitants of a deeper world would then be treated as unquantifiably greater (innumerably greater)*whatever layer they are located in minus 1, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, any inhabitant from a world located in layer 21 would be unquantifiable*20 into tier Low 2-C/2-C, because while they would be capable of easily destroying a world from layer 20, they would not normally be capable of destroying a world in their own layer.

Infinitely into Low 2-C/2-C proposal:

High 3-A is infinite AP and Low 2-C is uncountably infinite AP because there are uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of the 3-D universe in the timeline.
Normally, a single 'snapshot' of an entire universe is either 3-A or High 3-A, so destroying an entire space-time continuum is equivalent to destroying uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of a 3-A/High 3-A structure.
However, if the 3-D aspect of a deeper world (this includes a single 'snapshot' of a deeper world) is considered to have unquantifiable into Low 2-C/2-C durability, then destroying an entire space-time continuum of a deeper world is equivalent to destroying uncountably infinite 'snapshots' of a unquantifiable into Low 2-C/2-C durability structure.
Therefore, to destroy the entire 4-D space-time continuum of a deeper world, you would possibly need uncountably infinite greater AP than the baseline Low 2-C/2-C AP needed to normally destroy an entire space-time continuum (world).
I personally do not know if the above logic is accurate or not.

Because of the above information, if it is deemed accurate, then destroying deeper worlds could potentially be treated as infinitely greater*whatever layer they are located in, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, destroying a world from layer 21 would be infinitely*21 into tier Low 2-C/2-C.
Inhabitants of a deeper world would then be treated as infinitely greater*whatever layer they are located in minus 1, into whichever tier destroying a world would be (either Low 2-C or 2-C). In other words, any inhabitant from a world located in layer 21 would be infinitely*20 into tier Low 2-C/2-C, because while they would be capable of easily destroying a world from layer 20, they would not normally be capable of destroying a world in their own layer.

1-B proposal:

The Sovereign of a world can use their own world and other worlds under their control as shogi pieces in a game of 'Silver Water Shogi'. Silver Water Shogi uses the Fire Dew of worlds to create shogi pieces. It is stated multiple times that using the shogi pieces in Silver Water Shogi is equivalent to using the worlds themselves as pieces. If a shogi piece is destroyed, the corresponding world is also destroyed.

Because of all the information provided in the "Power Hierarchy" section so far, deeper layers could potentially be treated as higher levels of existence, and therefore the entire Silver Sea from layer 0 up to layer 99 could be treated as 1-B. Because layer 0 is considered 4-D, layer 1 would be considered 4-D+1 (1 deeper layer), i.e. "5-D", and so forth up to layer 99, which would be considered 4-D+99 (99 deeper layers), i.e. "103-D".

Also, I've always been iffy on using the presumed Author explanation, because I didn't get it directly from the author and I cannot 100% confirm that the author truly wrote the explanation. However, I think it is likely that the author truly wrote this explanation based on how the background of the message looks, and I know most verse supporters don't care about this that much, so I'm still fine with using it for now. Just be warned that it could still potentially, although unlikely, be fake.
Click to expand...
For every world/bubble to be 2A this my argument:
Post in thread 'Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread 2' https://vsbattles.com/threads/maou-gakuin-discussion-thread-2.107621/post-4588137

I use the same logic with how every layer is accepted to 2A
The universes that contained by militia world is just a microcosm of that bubble. And microcosm is microscopic, miniature, a copy of a larger place, a small unit. So that universes is very limited by bubble and treated only as subsets of it
 
And a world is infinite in size, i found a proof of it

背後を振り返れば、そこにあるのは果てしなく巨大な、銀の光を放つ丸い泡だ。
Looking back, there it is: an endless, huge, round bubble with a silver glow.

And endless mean infinite, that how yggdrasil get 2A tier and ultima is agree with it
Post in thread 'God of War Yggdrasil Low 1-C Justification' https://vsbattles.com/threads/god-of-war-yggdrasil-low-1-c-justification.125526/post-4347614
 
imZer0Null said:
You should please provide a supporting scan with its corresponding chapter number when you have the time.
Fixxed said:
For every world/bubble to be 2A this my argument:
Post in thread 'Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread 2' https://vsbattles.com/threads/maou-gakuin-discussion-thread-2.107621/post-4588137

I use the same logic with how every layer is accepted to 2A
The universes that contained by militia world is just a microcosm of that bubble. And microcosm is microscopic, miniature, a copy of a larger place, a small unit. So that universes is very limited by bubble and treated only as subsets of it
Click to expand...
Fixxed said:
And a world is infinite in size, i found a proof of it

背後を振り返れば、そこにあるのは果てしなく巨大な、銀の光を放つ丸い泡だ。
Looking back, there it is: an endless, huge, round bubble with a silver glow.

And endless mean infinite, that how yggdrasil get 2A tier and ultima is agree with it
Post in thread 'God of War Yggdrasil Low 1-C Justification' https://vsbattles.com/threads/god-of-war-yggdrasil-low-1-c-justification.125526/post-4347614
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
"Hmm. Well, it's different outside. You were born in one of the Jurikai Gardens Da Ku Kadate, the Desperate Desert. There are three more sanctuaries in the Jurikai Garden. There are countless sanctuaries outside. There is a land of gods called the desert of the gods. If you go through the gate of the divine world, you will find the land of the demons and the land of humans where I was born."
 
Last edited:
The huge branch on which Wenzel stood quickly turned into leaves and fluttered away.
　She loses her footing as all the branches, branches of the tree canopy celestial sphere, turn into leaves.
You are falling into the sky. Oh, the ever-changing sky is endless, and the end will never come.
　Wenzel's body falls into the sky.
　She was falling headlong, following the tones of the Ididroendo, which had transposed into an intense song.
　The tree-crowned celestial sphere is all but empty. In normal times, it should be connected to the withering desert or the Great Tree Mother Sea, but now, no matter how far she falls, she will never get there.
　The sky has undergone a metamorphosis, becoming something other than what it should be.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
"Hmm. Well, it's different outside. You were born in one of the Jurikai Gardens Da Ku Kadate, the Desperate Desert. There are three more sanctuaries in the Jurikai Garden. There are countless sanctuaries outside. There is a land of gods called the desert of the gods. If you go through the gate of the divine world, you will find the land of the demons and the land of humans where I was born."
Click to expand...

Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
The huge branch on which Wenzel stood quickly turned into leaves and fluttered away.
　She loses her footing as all the branches, branches of the tree canopy celestial sphere, turn into leaves.
You are falling into the sky. Oh, the ever-changing sky is endless, and the end will never come.
　Wenzel's body falls into the sky.
　She was falling headlong, following the tones of the Ididroendo, which had transposed into an intense song.
　The tree-crowned celestial sphere is all but empty. In normal times, it should be connected to the withering desert or the Great Tree Mother Sea, but now, no matter how far she falls, she will never get there.
　The sky has undergone a metamorphosis, becoming something other than what it should be.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I'll add these scans to the draft later.
 
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