Manifold CRT 2: Electric Boogalo (Anna Edition)

[RatherClueless]

Not entirely sure why I was pinged for this, as I don't know too much about Manifold except some excerpts and discussions I've seen. I don't mind reading through this and giving my input tho. Gonna be a while tho, since I am currently out and about, as my parents are celebrating their wedding day.

 

[Jibz]

as my parents are celebrating their wedding day.

Not to derail (eh its my thread so who cares) but are they getting married, or this is their anniversary. Congrats for them and to you either way.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not interested in evaluating Manifold.

 

[Antvasima]

Not entirely sure why I was pinged for this, as I don't know too much about Manifold except some excerpts and discussions I've seen. I don't mind reading through this and giving my input tho. Gonna be a while tho, since I am currently out and about, as my parents are celebrating their wedding day.

I pinged you because you tend to be knowledgeable about evaluating higher tiers, and Manifold is a very high-tier verse.

Also, there is obviously no hurry if you are busy with celebrations IRL.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will go through it properly later but do anyone scale to the feat?

 

[Jibz]

I thought the tag and title would be enough, but it'd scale to Anna only

 

[PrinceofPein]

I thought the tag and title would be enough, but it'd scale to Anna only

If this is supposedly a hax, why would she scale to it physically

I have not read through the thread properly, I am just trying to see hash this out first

 

[Jibz]

If this is supposedly a hax, why would she scale to it physically

I have not read through the thread properly, I am just trying to see hash this out first

Nobody stated it'd scale to her physicals. I thought it would be self evident, and attack that came from a weapon owned by a child, would mean that a child's weapon would scale, not her.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Nobody stated it'd scale to her physicals. I thought it would be self evident, and attack that came from a weapon owned by a child, would mean that a child's weapon would scale, not her.

Oh that’s what I was asking in the first place if she herself scales to it.
Anyway I will give an in-depth look at the feat later on

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[RatherClueless]

Space-time/Spatial Manip: Anna's tinkerbell explosion caused an unreality bubble that distorted space-time

It specifically mentions gravitational lensing. That's not sapce-time manip unless you believe even humans should have it. This simply means that the object she created was so massive that it bent space-time to a point where the light visibly bends around it. Good examples of this are balck holes, but even planets and stars do this to a smaller extent.

Law Manip: That which travels past the unreality bubble gets its physical laws changed

This seems fine. Though I do think that there is a good chance that the laws are more of a byproduct than something she can manipulate. At least based on just that quote alone.

Time manip?: Downstreamers protect Anna/Blue children as they need her to facillitate a mission

Not quite sure since I feel like I am lacking context. Whoever sent the bullet should probably have time manip ig.

Uni+ lvl: The Bubble will eventually envelope the universe

Iffy about this one, as it is traveling at light speed. Either 3-A or H 3-A (The universe extends faster than the speed of light, so It'd never catch up). I really don't think it is Low 2-C though. And even if it was, not sure how we would tier it under the assumption that it takes an infinite amount of time.

Affects both time and space

Anything with sufficient gravity affects both space and time in a meaningful way. A black whole even makes it so that time and space swap places. I really feel like some more context on what this bubble is or what it is meant to do would be great.

Likened to the big crunch ( the universe collapses in on itself in the big Crunch)

Not the universe, but the bubble. At least that's what this sounds like from the quote(s) given.

Universe is both infinite in terms of size and time

This is fine

All in all, this just seems like a very massive object, bending space and time via its mass (like a black hole). Unless there is something I am missing here, in which case please feel free to point it out.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[RatherClueless]

The universe always grows, starting in the Big Bang, if it keeps on growing forever then it is an infinite expansion while the size of the universe is finite.

Just feel like clarifying. A big bang and an infinite universe aren't contradictory at all.

 

[Jibz]

It specifically mentions gravitational lensing. That's not sapce-time manip unless you believe even humans should have it. This simply means that the object she created was so massive that it bent space-time to a point where the light visibly bends around it. Good examples of this are balck holes, but even planets and stars do this to a smaller extent.

If this is the case, could she be given Spacial manip due to creating a pocket universe thats infinite in size on the inside, but not on the outside, which is likened to "space and time folded up"

Not quite sure since I feel like I am lacking context. Whoever sent the bullet should probably have time manip ig.

I'm not sure how i can add more context to this. It's rather simple, Downstreamers sent a bullet through time to protect Anna from the military.

Iffy about this one, as it is traveling at light speed. Either 3-A or H 3-A (The universe extends faster than the speed of light, so It'd never catch up). I really don't think it is Low 2-C though. And even if it was, not sure how we would tier it under the assumption that it takes an infinite amount of time.

Honestly i could be placated by 3-A to H3-A if people truly prefer that. But i believe it'd be L2-C.

Not the universe, but the bubble. At least that's what this sounds like from the quote(s) given.

I'll have to reread the part, but the gist of false vacuum decay is this:

"Some false vacuum decay scenarios are compatible with survival of structures like galaxies and stars[7][8] or even biological life[9] while others involve the full destruction of baryonic matter[10] or even immediate gravitational collapse of the universe,[11]"

Presumably it'd be the latter, but again i'll have to put more research into it. Regardless that was meant to be more of a supportive argument, and im fine with dropping it.

This is fine

All in all, this just seems like a very massive object, bending space and time via its mass (like a black hole). Unless there is something I am missing here, in which case please feel free to point it out.

Pretty apt.


Eh all in all i'm fine with H3A or L2-C, iffy on just 3-A but if the majority want to go with that, then ill be fine with it personally.

 

[RatherClueless]

If this is the case, could she be given Spacial manip due to creating a pocket universe thats infinite in size on the inside, but not on the outside, which is likened to "space and time folded up"

Most likely.

I'm not sure how i can add more context to this. It's rather simple, Downstreamers sent a bullet through time to protect Anna from the military.

I just wasnt sure who sent the bullet/what exactly it was doing, as the scans just said "another bullet from the future". this is fine then

iffy on just 3-A

I said 3-A as I am not 100% sure on how we treat "over infinite time" feats. The size would be H 3-A tho, so that's probably better. You should probably ask someone who is more informed about our standards tho. I really dont think it is low 2-C though, as it only seems to severly bend time space, rather than destroy it. I also dont think I saw a statement of it having a separate/new temporal axis. The closest to that is the statement that it's a fundamental change in the universe, but I don't think that'd be enough tbh. Ig possibly L 2-C might be.

 

[Jibz]

Fair is fair. Personally, as long as she gets some form of universe rating ill be satiated. (H3A is heavily preferable though).

 

[Eficiente]

Everyone ive spoken to about this, is just so utterly perplexed at your argument. Its stated infinite various times. You have any other interpretations such as “infinitely growing” or “they’re just lying lol” can go suck an egg until proof is shown to support such narratives.

Yeah literally everyone whose spoken to me about this in the discord is just utterly perplexed by Effi's logic. So yeah lets hope they can make a strong case in their next response.

Yeah, that's common. In Vs Debates you can find any amount of groups of people disagreeing with all kinds of things, only take as important your own disagreement with me for the reasons you may have that you know for sure, you never know from where others may be coming from.

“They’re just lying lol” is a needless ridiculation of something being a hyperbole, let alone the universe. It is far too common in real life to call the universe infinite by informative people in a way that you don't know if they meant "its current size" or "how it's ever-growing", and it is obviously likely that a lot of people meant the former while being wrong in a way that doesn't matter because it's hyperbolic. You could even call this a phenomenon, it's not the same as people "just lying lol", which obviously has far, far worst connotations in the way it's used. Added to it, if any verse has claims of the universe being infinite in a way that it isn't actually infinite-sized, it is next to impossible for them to throw in statements that would limit the size of the universe, nobody calls it "finite" because it kinda isn't due to always growing even tho we kinda should call it that more often in real life, nobody would call out the size of the observable universe as in, "they technically could, but it is too unlikely".

“Infinitely growing” as a take is far more reasonable than how you portrayed it in some of the ways it has been called infinite, if it doesn't apply to all and others are likely to be hyperboles.

How many times must they hit you with a blatant descripition of “hey this is infinite!” before its NOT hyperbole

There is no clear answer in the sense that it's case by case. We can't measure the runtime of a series next to the amount of statements or the like, maybe they like to use that hyperbole in a series next to poetic wording to the point where it's hard to take seriously even when on its own, or maybe they use it in fewer, serious cases in a way and context that there is an argument to be made that it's not hyperbolic.

 

[RatherClueless]

It is far too common in real life to call the universe infinite by informative people in a way that you don't know if they meant "its current size" or "how it's ever-growing", and it is obviously likely that a lot of people meant the former while being wrong in a way that doesn't matter because it's hyperbolic.

What do you even mean by that? The general assumption is that our universe is both infinite and ever expanding (ΛCDM). Also, are you currently implying the author is wrong about the size of the universe in their own story, being hyperbolic without even knowing it? Like, I am genuenly asking because I am not sure that I understood what you meant to say here.

Edit: Especiall that last, highlited part.

Edit 2: This part is also very confusing to me

Added to it, if any verse has claims of the universe being infinite in a way that it isn't actually infinite-sized,

Is that supposed to mean that unless the verse specifically uses the word "size", we can not assume it is infinite?

 

[Jibz]

Like Rather i am incredibly confused

 

[PrinceofPein]

Hax

Space-time/Spatial Manip: Anna's tinkerbell explosion caused an unreality bubble that distorted space-time
instance 1
instance 2

This is what happens when there is a body of large mass, it’s nothing really it is just normal physics

Law Manip: That which travels past the unreality bubble gets its physical laws changed
instance 1

This is fine

Time manip?: Downstreamers protect Anna/Blue children as they need her to facillitate a mission
instance 1 (will get a better quality pic later)
instance 2

This is fine

Alr time for some scaling

Star lvl: Soon after enveloping the Earth, the bubble envelopes the Sun
instance 1

Uni+ lvl: The Bubble will eventually envelope the universe
instance 1 —> Will go onto smother the universe
instance 2 —> Affects both time and space
Instance 3 —> Likened to the big crunch ( the universe collapses in on itself in the Big Crunch)
instance 4 —> Universe is both infinite in terms of size and time

Well disagree with most of this stuffs here
Like a Big Crunch =\= Big Crunch
If something similar to Big Crunch was happening where the moon was, earth and the solar system will be gone

And also instance two contradicts your claim for instance 4.
“We have all of infinite time and space in our hand” is not a definite time for infinite space.

And also a bubble going at light speed will never cover an infinite distance.

And the bubble is not really causing any damage is it?
From what I’m reading it is just enveloping the universe.

 

[RatherClueless]

And also instance two contradicts your claim for instance 4.
“We have all of infinite time and space in our hand” is not a definite time for infinite space.

Maybe I am just misunderstanding, but I don't see a contradiction in that.

And also a bubble going at light speed will never cover an infinite distance.

Pretty sure the argument was "over infinite time", in which case it would in fact be infinite. But like I said before, I have no idea as to how we even treat feats like that.

 

[Jibz]

If something similar to Big Crunch was happening where the moon was, earth and the solar system will be gone

Except they actively are?

And the bubble is not really causing any damage is it?
From what I’m reading it is just enveloping the universe.

It literally engulfed the Earth, killed all the billions of people there, then snuffed out the sun. So yeah it is causing damage. It's literally the false vacuum decay, one of many actions caused by it is the gravitational collapse of the universe.

 

[RatherClueless]

This should probably also give void manipulation, as it creates "true" vacuum.

I also think I'll have to change some things from my original reply.

 

[Jibz]

I was thinking something along those lines but ultimately decided against it. Though the fact its also called an "unreality" bubble is very interesting. So i'd be fine with it on their profile.

 

[Jibz]

Also since spatial manip seems to be rejected for begrudgingly fair reasons. Here's a better form of justification. Anna and the other blue children create a safe haven on the moon described as having an infinite volume on the inside with a finite size on the outside, furthermore the time inside the "toy universe" is described as altered with minutes outside being centuries in there.

It is also described a folded space-time (yes i know it's saying electric chair, but that's because of the place already being a folded space-time. Kind of how you would say chinese architecture, instead of just architecture when going to China. The place is literally described as folded right after and prior to this statement so its obviously referring to that)

 

[PrinceofPein]

Maybe I am just misunderstanding, but I don't see a contradiction in that.

Well you can’t have them say the bubble is expanding at light speed and at the same time it will engulf the universe which is supposed to be infinite

Pretty sure the argument was "over infinite time", in which case it would in fact be infinite. But like I said before, I have no idea as to how we even treat feats like that.

I really don’t mind the infinite time as time is by default infinite, but space is not and also in that context it seems more flowery than true

Except they actively are?

It literally engulfed the Earth, killed all the billions of people there, then snuffed out the sun. So yeah it is causing damage. It's literally the false vacuum decay, one of many actions caused by it is the gravitational collapse of the universe.

Well I really did not know this.
But you do know if we want to use strictly physics this feats won’t even become 3A?
It would millions of trillions of light years now for it to be 3A.

 

[RatherClueless]

Alright, so I knew this topic felt familiar

So, first of all. I will have to take back the "it has these effects because it is massive" reasoning. It is massive alright, to a point where it could just collapse into a black hole, but due to its properties it doesn't have any gravitational effects . . . which is why I am also not sure where the gravitational lensing comes from. It really shouldn't even do that, but whatever.

It also shouldn't be Law Manipulation, but Physics Manipulation.

Now when it comes to the "big crunch" part, after going through a scientific paper for this topic, it is very clear that it is the bubble that would collapse, not the universe. Here I now also have to say that at least Spatial Manipulation would be fine, as the bubble would create a different space than what is outside.

This should also give either Gravity or Energy Manipulation, if not both.

 

[RatherClueless]

but space is not and also in that context it seems more flowery than true

This is fairly blatant tbh

The only thing contradictory would the statement of it being a sphere, which implies a finite Hyper Sphere for a universe, rather than a flat and infinite one.

Well I really did not know this.
But you do know if we want to use strictly physics this feats won’t even become 3A?
It would millions of trillions of light years now for it to be 3A.

He is aware. It'd be sth like small star level, (high) 3-A over time, similar to how Kaguya is tier 4 via her Eternal Truth Seeking Orb.

Edit:

Well you can’t have them say the bubble is expanding at light speed and at the same time it will engulf the universe which is supposed to be infinite

Also, the only issue with this is that the universe is expanding faster than light, rather than it not happening at all. If it expands for an infinite time, it would be infinite in volume.

 

[Jibz]

It also shouldn't be Law Manipulation, but Physics Manipulation.

I had 0 clue that was a thing, but yes that is a more apt ability

Well I really did not know this.
But you do know if we want to use strictly physics this feats won’t even become 3A?
It would millions of trillions of light years now for it to be 3A.

I doubt it'd be trillions of light years though it would take a long ass time, seeing as how it'd out expand the galaxy in a hundred thousand years, and Andromena in a couple million years.

 

[Jibz]

He is aware. It'd be sth like small star level, (high) 3-A over time, similar to how Kaguya is tier 4 via her Eternal Truth Seeking Orb.

I'd be fine with this (and high universal range)

 

[RatherClueless]

And before I forget, it should also give Quantum Manipulation

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is fairly blatant tbh

The only thing contradictory would the statement of it being a sphere, which implies a finite Hyper Sphere for a universe, rather than a flat and infinite one.

This scan was not in the OP, but tbh the universe been infinite as so many contradictions

He is aware. It'd be sth like small star level, (high) 3-A over time, similar to how Kaguya is tier 4 via her Eternal Truth Seeking Orb.

Edit:

Oh good then, I can agree with that

Also, the only issue with this is that the universe is expanding faster than light, rather than it not happening at all. If it expands for an infinite time, it would be infinite in volume.

Well I would prefer to assume this universe is not expanding at all unless it was stated otherwise, since if the universe was expanding the bubble would never catch up with it ever, but it is stated “the bubble is moving at light speed and will eventually cover the entire universe”

I doubt it'd be trillions of light years though it would take a long ass time, seeing as how it'd out expand the galaxy in a hundred thousand years, and Andromena in a couple million years.

You sure? They missed the “light year” then
Cause it would take hundred thousand light years to leave Milky Way and millions of light for Andromeda.
So their universe must be really small if something traveling light speed only needs hundred thousand years to leave Milky Way.

 

[RatherClueless]

the universe been infinite as so many contradictions

Like what?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Like what?

Lights speed bubble covering the universe? Is kind of a really big one

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @QuasiYuri

What do you think about this?

 

[RatherClueless]

Lights speed bubble covering the universe? Is kind of a really big one

You said yourself that you don't want to assume that the universe is expanding, no? Tough it does in fact mention infinite expansion.

Also, if you haven't seen the thing I just sent, you should probably take a look at this

Okay here we go

One, Two buckle my shoe
Three, Four Open the door (Sheena 5 is a cethalapod (squid) sent out to explore the vast unknowns of space, the "ocean" is just clever wordplay)
Five, six, pick up sticks (Downstreamers substrate is finite, universe is infinite thus they are subjected to the Berkenstein Bound)
Seven, eight, lay them straight
Nine, ten, begin again

Okay everybody, one more time (Sheena 5 2: Electric Boogalo)

Isn't counting with Barney just the greatest song ever? And there's enough scans to fit the whole thing. How fun.

Oh also here's the Big bang being referenced "infinite expansion"

Still think it's a hyperbole?

 

[PrinceofPein]

You said yourself that you don't want to assume that the universe is expanding, no? Tough it does in fact mention infinite expansion.

The universe expansion must be slow but again the Milky Way in this universe is the same size as ours, so I think it’s a valid expansion
We should just close our eyes to the “the light speed bubble” then
That’s the only way tbh

Also, if you haven't seen the thing I just sent, you should probably take a look at this

Of all the ones you linked, this is the actually valid one

Okay everybody, one more time (Sheena 5 2: Electric Boogalo)

The rest was more of a POV sentence and flowery

 

[PrinceofPein]

So have you reached any conclusions here?

Well at least their is a conclusion about what ability she gets, but the tiering is still under discussion

 

[RatherClueless]

Ok, but it would still end up being infinite after an infinite amount of time . . . whether the universe expands infinitely or is infinite doesn't really matter here. Only "issue" is that it wouldn't reach the edge, but it'd still be H 3-A none the less.