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Major MHA Speed Upgrade

Momo specifically said that Todoroki can fire his Giant Ice Wall in that instant, referring to Aizawa's blink.

Momo: "When he blinks... before he opens his eyes again, that's your chance! You can fire it off in that instant".

Saying that the Giant Ice Wall didn't reached its full height before Aizawa opened his eyes is a baseless assumption, how could you call that a "Giant Ice Wall" when, according to you, Todoroki have not even finished it?
 
"Fire it off in this instant" doesn't inherently mean that it is not completely done in the same timeframe. She's just telling him to create the ice wall before Aizawa reopens his eyes. You're the one assuming that Todoroki's ice is too slow to completely form in that time frame.

The very next panel, after she tells him to fire it off in that instant, the ice wall is completely formed, and Aizawa's capture tape is being frozen so fast he has to cut it off right before it touches his actual body. Just the freezing effect of his ice wall was fast enough to almost reach Aizawa before his eyes opened, let alone the creation of the wall itself.

Where is the evidence that Todoroki's ice wall was not fully formed before Aizawa reopened his eyes? I've given my evidence and reasoning for why it was.
 
"Fire it off in this instant" also doesn't inherently mean that it is completely done in the same timeframe.

I've also given my evidence for it.

We're currently being way too generous with the assumptions behind the feat.
 
I'll have to continue this conversation in the morning.
 
I never said it inherently meant that. Hence why I used further manga panels to prove my point.

What evidence?

No, no one is being too generous at all, he did this feat before Aizawa reopened his eyes.
 
Okay, so the main issue here is the interpretation of Momo's statement to mean she wanted/expected Todoroki to completely create the Giant Ice Wall in the span of Aizawa's eye-blink (assumed to be 0.1 seconds).

Looking at her statement:

> Momo: "When he blinks... before he opens his eyes again, that's your chance! You can fire it off in that instant".

I don't see a reason to assume that this means the full thing is finished in that same instant; all Todoroki needs to do is start creating it.

After that it doesn't matter if it takes 0.2 seconds or 1 second for him to create a few dozens of meters of ice, all he needs is to start it off in 0.1 seconds.

Things like Aizawa's capture tape being frozen or the next panel after the flashback being the full Giant Ice Wall aren't actually evidence that specifically supports it being created in the 0.1 second timeframe.

The reason why I mentioned earlier than he only needed enough to cover himself from Aizawa's eyesight in that timeframe is that if he hadn't made enough for that then he couldn't finish making the rest.

If we had a viewpoint from Aizawa that showed the ice wall being finished before he finished blinking, or a comment from him stating that he didn't even see the ice wall appear, that would be solid evidence of it being fully created in the timeframe of his blink.
 
I was trying to find some feats and I actually found another calc for Todoroki's ice and a feat he did in the movie which was forgot about so maybe we could use that one instead though I don't fully remember what the calc was called but it was done by Rusty I think.
 
He creates and finished the ice wall in the instant Aizawa blinks. That's why it is fully formed and already almost completely freezing Aizawa the next time we see it.

Except that those things do show that Todoroki made and finished the ice wall in that instant, unless you have something to say otherwise about why they're there in the first place? You're the only person who believes or is even considering the thought that the ice wall wasn't done before Aizawa opened his eyes, mainly because there is zero supporting evidence for that assumption and it's all speculation. You're assuming Todoroki couldn't make the ice wall in 0.1 seconds, without anything to say why. You're intentionally downplaying the feat because you don't want to believe he could do it that fast for no reason at all.

It does not matter what you personally think happened. What matters is what is portrayed in the manga. In the manga, Todoroki fires the ice wall off the instant Aizawa blinks, and the very next panel it is fully formed and almost freezing Aizawa, who has to quickly cut off his own capture tape to not be frozen. That seems like enough evidence to say he created the whole thing in that time frame.

There is no .2 to 1 second timeframe for you to be assuming Todoroki wasn't finished with his ice wall, there is no viewpoint from Aizawa to show it wasn't finished yet, there is nothing at all to suggest the ice wall wasn't finished before Aizawa opened his eyes. Seeing the completely finished ice wall in the very next panel, while it is already trying to freeze Aizawa and has already almost reached him before he quickly cuts off his capture tape, is evidence that it was in fact created that fast.

Todoroki only making some of the ice and then finishing the rest is absolutely headcanon and no where at all is it shown or stated to be happening in the manga. There is no ground for you to stand on with that claim. You're just in disbelief over Todoroki's ice being that fast.

You have no evidence for assuming the timeframe is anything other than .1 second, and everything you are attempting to use to say we don't know the timeframe or exactly what happened from Aizawa's view can be turned right against your own argument due to your lack of evidence.

Where is the statement that it took a little while to finish the ice wall after Aizawa blinked? Where is the panel showing the ice wall still needing to be completed? Did Aizawa say anything contrary to what is being assumed by me and others? These things are evidence for your side, everything else is your opinion or an assumption created because you don't think Todoroki can create his ice wall this fast, both of which are irrelevant to the actual source material, which shows the ice wall completely formed the instant Todoroki fires it.
 
> He creates and finished the ice wall in the instant Aizawa blinks

That is the assumption on your part - I'm just stating that since the scene is ambiguous enough, we shouldn't have to make that assumption and the calc should not be used.

> What matters is what is portrayed in the manga. In the manga, Todoroki fires the ice wall off the instant Aizawa blinks, and the very next panel it is fully formed and almost freezing Aizawa, who has to quickly cut off his own capture tape to not be frozen. That seems like enough evidence to say he created the whole thing in that time frame.

I've already explained up above why that is not enough evidence.

That only shows the ice wall being created quickly, not it being created in the 0.1 second timeframe.
 
I'm not assuming that he creates and finishes the ice wall in the instant he fires off the attack, I'm using evidence from the manga to say so.

You saying my evidence is not enough because all it shows is that the ice was made fast is exactly my point about you intentionally downplaying Todoroki. What other timeframe exists for you to say that the ice wasn't created that fast? Where is your assumption that Todoroki didn't finish the ice wall coming from? Why are you assuming this with no evidence whatsoever?

You agree that the ice was made incredibly fast, but disagree that it was made in the given time interval? Ok, why does that time interval not work? Aizawa's blink, the instant he does so in fact, is the only time frame ever given for anything. You assuming that he made some of the ice, which just so happened to be enough to block Aizawa's view of them, then proceeded to finish the ice wall after, all while Aizawa is just lounging in the air, is a claim that is steeped in nothing but assumptions far worse than "Todoroki made it that fast", so I sure hope that isn't what you're basing your belief on.

Aizawa and his capture tape were in the exact same positions as they were before Todoroki made the ice wall as they were when it was completely done. Aizawa had already thrown his capture tape, and was mid air when Todoroki began to make the ice wall, and the next time we see Aizawa, he's still in the same position, as is his capture tape, except now it and the entire street around him are beginning to freeze. Aizawa doesn't realize this, because he didn't see this happening due to it occuring before he opened his eyes back, and has to quickly cut off his capture tape to not be frozen.

If Aizawa has already opened his eyes before the ice wall was fully formed, why didn't he just pull back his capture tape so he didn't have to cut it? Why didn't he just back away the second some of the wall was created? Why did he praise them for taking advantage of his weakness?

There is far more evidence to suggest that Todoroki made the entire ice wall before Aizawa had reopened his eyes than there is to say he didn't. Everything from Momo's comment, to the way the manga structures the creation of the ice wall, fo Aizawa's positioning and reaction to the ice wall suggest it was made before Aizawa had reopened his eyes.
 
> Ok, why does that time interval not work? Aizawa's blink, the instant he does so in fact, is the only time frame ever given for anything.

Yes, it is the timeframe for when Todoroki needs to start making the ice wall.

Not the timeframe for the entire ice structure being created.

> You assuming that he made some of the ice, which just so happened to be enough to block Aizawa's view of them, then proceeded to finish the ice wall after, all while Aizawa is just lounging in the air

I think you have been misreading my posts. Nowhere did I claim this.

> If Aizawa has already opened his eyes before the ice wall was fully formed, why didn't he just pull back his capture tape so he didn't have to cut it?

Because his capture tape was already caught by the ice.

> Why didn't he just back away the second some of the wall was created?

He was in midair. How do you just change direction in midair?

> Why did he praise them for taking advantage of his weakness?

Because they blocked his view of them while he blinked.

Does that answer your questions?
 
Im with damage on the icewall thing, doesnt make sense to assume he finished the whole wall in the time aizawa blinked, the most solid reasoning is that he managed to create enough to cover himself, momo doesnt matter for that since if her powers are negated he could still finish the wall. So the most solid assumption is that he created enough to cover himself, that much can be put into a timeframe of 0.1 seconds, the other stuff can take longer since it doesnt matter.
 
@GreatestSin; thanks. Glad someone else got where I'm coming from.
 
> Yes, it is the time frame for when Todoroki needs to start making the ice wall.

And he finishes the ice wall in this timeframe as well, otherwise Aizawa would have reacted faster.

> I think you misread my posts. No where did I claim this

You have been consistently claiming that Todoroki did not make the entire ice wall, he just made a bit of ice that could obscure Aizawa's view and then continued on to finish the wall.

> Becaue his capture tape was already caught by the ice

How was Aizawa's capture tape already encased in ice before his eyes were even opened, if the entire ice wall wasn't created yet? Should the calc now just assume it got that far before Aizawa opened his eyes back up? If Aizawa's eyes were open when his capture tape was not caught by the ice, he would have pulled it away so he wouldn't need to cut it.

> He was in midair. How do you just change direction in midair?

Probably by using the capture tape he's been using to move himself midair with? You know, his signature weapon? That he uses to move through the air? That was caught in a giant ice wall before he could open his eyes? Hence why he couldn't move away?

> Does that answer your questions?

When did Aizawa open his eyes, and how much ice was formed when he did.

@GreatestSin; so you too are claiming that Todoroki only made a bit of the ice wall to cover himself before Aizawa opened his eyes? How did Aizawa's capture tape get caught at all then.

Aizawa's reaction to the ice wall and his capture tape being frozen show he couldn't react to the creation of the wall, likely due to his eyes being closed. So either the entire wall was created or te calc should assume it reached all the way to his capture tape before he opened his eye.
 
@Kingofwolves; you're seriously misunderstanding me here.

I'm not saying "Todoroki created some ice, stopped, then made some more ice."

He made the whole Giant Ice Wall in a single move, but that move didn't necessarily end as Aizawa re-opened his eyes.

Do you get what I mean now?
 
I'm not assuming that; I'm stating that it is a possibility.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Why is it a possibility?
Click to expand...
Because the minimum amount of ice that Todoroki needed to create in that timeframe isn't the full Giant Ice Wall, but enough ice that he is shielded from Aizawa's view.

So even if it took him another 0.1 seconds or half a second, or more to create the full Giant Ice Wall, it wouldn't matter.
 
Ok, the amount of ice he needed to make was less than what he actually made. Cool.

Why does that mean that possibly happened.
 
@Kingofwolves999; I don't understand your question.
 
It would have taken less ice than Todoroki made to obscure them from Aizawa's sight, but when would there ever be a point in time where only that amount of ice was made before Aizawa opened his eyes.
 
@Kingofwolves999; during the timeframe where Aizawa's eyes were closed.
 
The amount of ice needed to obscure them from view is less than the amount of ice needed to reach Aizawa's capture tape. So if the ice was formed that slowly, Aizawa would have pulled his tape away.

So the ice bare minimum reached Aizawa's tape before he opened his eyes. Your scenario where it ONLY covered them from his sight is impossible.
 
I didn't say it only had to cover them; I said that is the minimum it had to be. Could have been 10 meters, or 20 meters, etc. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be the full size.
 
But that's wrong. The minimum isn't "enough to cover them", it has to be at Aizawa's capture tape, because any less than that would have resulted in him reacting and not having to cut his own weapon.
 
@Kingofwolves999; Are you overlooking the fact that Aizawa's Capture Tape was right on top of them when he activated his ice? Look at how close it is in the 2nd panel.
 
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2392B962-EDB1-4F36-8883-B59C16461FEE
That depends, are you now overlooking how close it was to freezing Aizawa himself? The fact that the capture tape was that close to them, but it took Aizawa this long to react and cut it off, is disproving your point that only an amount necessary enough to cover them was possibly made.
 
How does it disprove that? Doesn't that just mean Aizawa didn't react super quickly?
 
Why would Aizawa not be able to react quickly to Todoroki's ice forming several meters away from his end of the capture tape.
 
Because he wasn't able to? I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for here.
 
Deku, Iida, Bakugo, Twice, Dabi, Mr. Compress, and likely several other characters I cannot remember can react to Todoroki's ice attacks. Why would Aizawa be unable to, especially when it's that far away from him. Why would he wait until the ice wall was completely done being created before cutting his capture tape away.
 
Becaue he didn't actually need to do anything until the ice was freezing along his Capture Tape.

At this point it looks like you're kind of reaching for excuses. This line of argument doesn't have anything to do with my main point.
 
The point of this line of arguments is to show how deep of a reach it is to say that only the amount of ice necessary to cover Momo and Todoroki from Aizawa's sight was possibly created.

You just showed that Aizawa's capture tape was almost right on top of them before Todoroki began to make the ice wall, so in order for your argument to remain consistent, Aizawa needs to open his eyes right when they have been obscured from view with the ice, but not when the ice wall is fully formed or when his capture tape has been frozen almost to him. This is the possibility you have presented.

The problem with this is that the amount of ice needed for that is far less than what is needed to reach all the way to Aizawa, so you now have to assume that Aizawa felt the need to not do anything after opening his eyes and seeing part of his capture tape being frozen until it was almost right on top of him, which was right after the entire ice wall was done forming.

Do you see the issues I have with your stance? Why I asked all those questions? Why this chain went on so long? Because you have to assume so much happened in a 3 panel time frame with absolutely no evidence to back you up. In these 3 panels, you assumed when the ice formed, how much formed, when Aizawa opened his eyes, his state of mind when he saw what was happening, his actions after what he saw what was happening and then his actions when the ice wall was fully formed.
 
> Do you see the issues I have with your stance? Why I asked all those questions?

I can see why you have an issue with it, but I don't have a problem with it.

I'm not actually making those assumptions; those are just possibilities which is what makes this feat ambiguous and why we shouldn't be using the calc as I've stated all along.
 
The point I'm making is that it is not possible for your claim to be true without taking a large amount of assumptions. You end up assuming far too much with far too little to support you for your possibility to be feasible in any way.

I could say "Todoroki made part of the ice wall, did the hokey pokey, did his math homework in his head and said "Midoriya" for the 38th time before it was fully formed" and it would have the exact same weight as your own possibility, becaue if all I have to do is make a bunch of assumptions, anything can be considered a possibility.
 
@Kingofwolves999; technically my version only requires a single assumption which is just as supported by the manga. You've just added a bunch of unnecessary detail.
 
Why don't we just use the Giant Ice Wall of the Sports Festival? That's the one Momo was actually referring to after all.
 
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