Major MHA Speed Upgrade

[Kingofwolves999]

No, it does not require a single assumption, that's what the entire line of questions before was showing. The version of events you deem possible requires more assumptions than should be allowed for it to actually be possible. No details are unnecessary when they ultimately result in a lasting effect, and the details you're avoiding impact your overall premise.

The initial assumption, that Todoroki could have only made enough ice to cover them, requires additional assumptions about Aizawa's reaction speed and/or decision making in regards to his cloth freezing over. Todoroki cannot make only that amount of ice without Aizawa reacting to his capture tape freezing, so in order for your possibility to occur, Aizawa needs to react in a specific, unorthodox way, with no supporting evidence from the manga itself to show why he would choose said thought process.

The assumptions necessary are faulty enough to disregard your possibility. You're assuming things you have no way of knowing about, with no evidence to help you. Your possibility is not plausible.

 

[Damage3245]

@Kingofwolves; We don't need to make any assumptions regarding Aizawa's reaction speed or decision making; we'd just go by what the manga shows us.

You are the one inventing this scenario in your head.

@Therefir; How so? We don't have a speed for that feat.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

> We don't need to make any assumptions regarding Aizawa's reaction speed or decision making.

Why would Aizawa not be able to react quickly to Todoroki's ice forming several meters away from his end of the capture tape.

Damage3245 wrote: Because he wasn't able to? I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for here.

Kingofwolves999 wrote: Deku, Iida, Bakugo, Twice, Dabi, Mr. Compress, and likely several other characters I cannot remember can react to Todoroki's ice attacks. Why would Aizawa be unable to, especially when it's that far away from him. Why would he wait until the ice wall was completely done being created before cutting his capture tape away.

Damage3245 wrote: Becaue he didn't actually need to do anything until the ice was freezing along his Capture Tape.

This is you assuming that Aizawa, while looking at his capture tape, his main weapon, getting frozen by Todoroki's ice wall, decided to not do anything about it until the ice was already nearing his body and the wall was fully formed.

 

[Therefir]

@Damage3245 Momo was referring to that Giant Ice Wall in specific when she made the statement that Todoroki can create it in the time it takes someone to blink, it's even shown in the same panel, she can't see the future, so she has to be referring to that one. With that, we can ignore Aizawa completely.

 

[Damage3245]

@Kingofwolves; I offered that up as a possibility, not an assumption we are forced to make.

@Therefir; she doesn't state that Todoroki can create it in the blink of an eye. She states that he can fire it off in that instant. That is not the same thing as the entire thing being done in the same instant.

IMO we should ignore the feat and look for other options for scaling the speed of the verse.

 

[Sora_and_buff_riku]

Is there a way to look at all the calcs because I swear I say another calc about Todoroki's ice that kinda just got ignored for whatever reason so again we could just use that if I can find it.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

No, the possibility you're offering is that Todoroki only had enough time to make his ice wall big enough to cover himself and Momo from sight instead of the entire thing. In order for this to be true, Aizawa's capture tape, which you posted and said was right on top of them, needs to not be completely frozen as it almost is in the manga panel. But if that's true, a contradiction arises, as there is no way Aizawa is going to just wait as his capture tape and a giant ice wall form right in front of him.

You, however, said that he wouldn't need to do anything until it's almost near him. That is an Assumption. You assume he would do nothing until the Capture tape is almost completely frozen. You assume that he will just wait for the ice to fully form and almost reach him before cutting the tape. This is why your possibility falls apart, you yourself don't even realize what you're implying by saying Todoroki didn't make the full ice wall before Aizawa opened his eyes.

For your possibility to be true, you need to assume when Aizawa opens his eyes, what he sees, how he reacts to what he sees and how long it takes him to react. That is a ridiculous amount of assumptions to be made for something that happens almost instantly.

If the ice wall forms before Aizawa opens his eyes, all these assumptions go away, as they have direct showings in the manga. If the ice wall formed completely, we know what Aizawa sees, how he reacts, and how long it takes, because the manga is structured around the ice wall already being created. It is not structured so you can make a possibility where Aizawa took a specific course of action for no reason at all other than to fit your own narrative.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Here is the calc from TheRustyOne

 

[Damage3245]

> This is why your possibility falls apart, you yourself don't even realize what you're implying by saying Todoroki didn't make the full ice wall before Aizawa opened his eyes.

I think you're reacing a bit with these hypotheticals you're throwing out.

> For your possibility to be true, you need to assume when Aizawa opens his eyes, what he sees, how he reacts to what he sees and how long it takes him to react.

We don't need to assume anything; we just go with what is shown to us in the manga.

As this point I'm really beginning to not understand you; you seem to think all these things you're mentioning are absolute requirements for my proposed alternative, but they're not at all.

 

[Sora_and_buff_riku]

Here is the calc from TheRustyOne

Thanks. Can we just use this then ?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

If Todoroki's ice only forms enough to cover him and Momo whole Aizawa is blinking, will it reach or cover any part of Aizawa's scarf.

 

[Damage3245]

If Todoroki's ice only forms enough to cover him and Momo whole Aizawa is blinking, will it reach or cover any part of Aizawa's scarf.

Possibly, yeah.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Then why did Aizawa wait until the ice had almost reached him before cutting it off.

 

[Damage3245]

Then why did Aizawa wait until the ice had almost reached him before cutting it off.

We aren't given a reason in the manga.

I mentioned the possibility earlier than Aizawa simply didn't have a reason to cut it off until he noticed that the ice would reach him through it, or he reacted as quickly as he could and managed to cut it off in the nick of time.

We don't need to assume anything though; we know from the manga either way that he only cut it off as it was near him.

Your argument that my side requires much more assumptions doesn't hold up; I don't actually need to make these assumptions you're talking about.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

The reason in the manga is because his eyes were closed when an entire ice wall was formed and already icing his scarf. The reason you don't have a reason is because it doesn't make sense for him to wait that long to cut his scarf in your proposed possibility.

If the ice only covered the part of Aizawa's scarf that was near Momo and Todoroki, it would be no where near close enough that Aizawa would need to cut off his capture tape that close to save himself from freezing. His reaction speed is high enough he could easily react to Todoroki's ice, it wouldn't be difficult in the slightest, especially if he's several meters away from him. "In the nick of time" doesn't apply to someone who's scaling chain puts them way above Base Deku who could react to every single ice attack Todoroki threw at him.

If only a small portion of Aizawa's capture tape were frozen when his eyes opened back up, he would not have acted the way he did.

The only way Aizawa could possibly be so caught off guard by this attack that it almost reached him would be if, while his eyes were closed, a large portion of it was already formed, such that by the time he opened his eyes back, he was already under assault and his capture tape was beyond saving. This fits the narrative that the entire wall was already created.

 

[Damage3245]

> The reason you don't have a reason is because it doesn't make sense for him to wait that long to cut his scarf in your proposed possibility.

And how long is "that long" exactly?

> The only way Aizawa could possibly be so caught off guard by this attack that it almost reached him would be if, while his eyes were closed, a large portion of it was already formed, such that by the time he opened his eyes back

You realize this is also totally fine in my scenario too, right?

I already mentioned this.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

"How long" is defined by however far away his scarf is from him when Todoroki makes the ice wall.

You did, and it doesn't fit your scenario. The amount of ice necessary to cover Momo and Todoroki is less than the amount needed to reach Aizawa's scarf that close to him, and he would not react the way he did unless the ice was already almost near him when he opened his eyes.

Your scenario assumes a small portion of the overall ice wall was formed by the time Aizawa opened his eyes and his scarf began to freeze. That is impossible unless Aizawa waited for the ice to almost reach him, which makes no sense.

 

[GreatestSin]

.
@GreatestSin; so you too are claiming that Todoroki only made a bit of the ice wall to cover himself before Aizawa opened his eyes? How did Aizawa's capture tape get caught at all then.

Aizawa's reaction to the ice wall and his capture tape being frozen show he couldn't react to the creation of the wall, likely due to his eyes being closed. So either the entire wall was created or te calc should assume it reached all the way to his capture tape before he opened his eye.

Aizawas reaction was just to slow, you open your eyes but there is still a gap between seeing, and realising it, and than to move your muscles and do what is needed to dodge. Just because Aizawas tape was captured doesnt mean the icewall was created while he was blinking. It just means the icewall (minus the amount needed to cover todoroki) was to fast for aizawa to fully dodge.

 

[Damage3245]

@GreatestSin; well said. And that's not an assumption we need to make, it's just a conclusion you can get by reading the manga.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Assuming Todoroki made the ice in the established timeframe isn't an assumption it's what we're told Yaoyorozu says in the instant Aizawa blinks you can fire the giant ice wall and you're honestly downplaying Aizawa's reflexes when we've seen him easily restrain and dodge Todoroki the same Todoroki who could react to Stain who is able to dodge Todoroki's ice

 

[GreatestSin]

@Damage

We can lowball this feat however, we have a timeframe and we know how big todoroki is, that amount of ice can be put into a 0.1 seconds timeframe, no idea if it would be a update or not, but the safest bet is that one.

 

[Damage3245]

> and dodge Todoroki the same Todoroki who could react to Stain who is able to dodge Todoroki's ice

... Didn't Todoroki fail to react to Stain in close-quarters and needed Iida to jump in and save him?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

He previously reacted to him twice so he's displayed he can do it. When Stain was about to kill him Todoroki was mid attack

 

[Damage3245]

I mean, either way Aizawa still managed to react to the ice by cutting off his capture tape. So nobody is downplaying anything.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Then you agree Todoroki made the whole thing in a blink

 

[Damage3245]

@Insert; I'm going to ignore that you somehow managed to misinterpret my last post to mean that because I think you could only have done it intentionally and that would be arguing in bad faith.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Then what proof do you have that the ice wall wasn't made in that time

Also the amount of ice created was part of the argument wasn't it? You and king were arguing about it and king sated that for it to get that close to Aizawa it must've occurred in a blink

 

[GreatestSin]

Assuming Todoroki made the ice in the established timeframe isn't an assumption it's what we're told Yaoyorozu says in the instant Aizawa blinks you can fire the giant ice wall

and you're honestly downplaying Aizawa's reflexes when we've seen him easily restrain and dodge Todoroki the same Todoroki who could react to Stain who is able to dodge Todoroki's ice
That doesnt mean the ice was created during the timeframe, it means todoroki started his attack while aizawa blinked, it stll is 100% possible that todoroki just created enough to cover himself in the 0.1 seconds and than everything else in a unknown timeframe afterwards.

Stain dodged todos ice, so Stain > todo in that, and where can we now see that todorokis ice-creation-speed equals his reaction/combat one? One is a single motion controlled by thought (the ice attack) and the other requires him to react and make counters to a suprise-move. Just because aizawa did that to torodoki doesnt mean he is now somehow faster than his ice attack.

 

[Damage3245]

> Then what proof do you have that the ice wall wasn't made in that time

I've already explained my rationale for it thoroughly. Which part of it do you not understand?

> Also the amount of ice created was part of the argument wasn't it? You and king were arguing about it and king sated that for it to get that close to Aizawa it must've occurred in a blink

King might have stated that, but what does that have to do with me? I don't agree with King.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

If Todoroki only created enough to cover by the time Aizawa opened his eye how did he let the ice grow to that size and get so close to himself? That also doesn't disprove that Yaoyorozu specially said Todoroki can fire his giant ice wall in the blink of an eye

Todoroki can dodge and freeze Bakugo and can dodge Iida's Recipro Burst his reaction and combat speed is at least on par with his ice if not faster

 

[Damage3245]

> If Todoroki only created enough to cover by the time Aizawa opened his eye how did he let the ice grow to that size and get so close to himself?

I didn't say he only created that much. I said that's the minimum required.

> That also doesn't disprove that Yaoyorozu specially said Todoroki can fire his giant ice wall in the blink of an eye

Yeah; fire it. As in start creating it. That doesn't prove that it was created in the blink of an eye.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

And what is that minimum?

Todoroki would need to fire his ice and obstruct Aizawa before he opens his eye and Aizawa would then need to float in midair in the same position and stare at his capture tape as its frozen and not cut it till the ice gets close to him

 

[GreatestSin]

> If Todoroki only created enough to cover by the time Aizawa opened his eye how did he let the ice grow to that size and get so close to himself?

He wasnt able to react that quickly. This is my assumption but nothing gave us a definite scaling of aizawas reaction/combat speed as far i know, so the icewall being created in 1 second could still have overwhelmed him if he didnt have a fast enough reaction speed.

> That also doesn't disprove that Yaoyorozu specially said Todoroki can fire his giant ice wall in the blink of an eye

True, it doesnt, but it shows how unreliable this scaling would be, neither me or Damage are saying its impossible it happened like that, we are saying that using this feat in that manner will inevitably be a fragile calculation and imo kinda look like wanking, the best one would be the calc with the least assumptions, and the one with the least would be to assume todoroki began once aizawa blinked and todoroki created enough to at least cover himself.

> Todoroki can dodge and freeze Bakugo and can dodge Iida's Recipro Burst his reaction and combat speed is at least on par with his ice if not faster

Thats a assumption on the speed of the ice, we dont know, all we know is that the icewall during the sports festival was able to freeze tapeboy faster than eye, recipro is also faster than eye, but todoroki reacting to that doesnt mean his FTE is the same FTE as his ice.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

We have an idea of Aizawa's recation and combat speed he scales to or above characters like Kirishima (who can react to bullets and characters stated to punch like a hail of bullets), Deku (who can perceive fte opponents and dodge multiple gun shots), Todoroki (who grabbed Deku's headband while Iida used RB which is fte).

The least assumptions would be to use what we are told and shown. Yaoyorozu specifically sites his giant ice wall from the festival rather than just saying you can shield us in a blink she tell him in that instant while Aizawa is blinking fire the giant ice wall nothing else. Assuming he fired just some ice in that blink is an assumption.

We know how fast his ice is since he could create it to stop Stain from hitting him along with Kirishima even referring to him as insta kill man or that he can intercept attacks from Wolfram.

 

[Damage3245]

>Todoroki would need to fire his ice and obstruct Aizawa before he opens his eye and Aizawa would then need to float in midair in the same position and stare at his capture tape as its frozen and not cut it till the ice gets close to him

Why are you talking about floating? That doesn't make any sense. Nowhere is my scenario I've described does Aizawa magically float in the air.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Then you have to assume the the timeframe that the ice actually took to form and assume that Aizawa just stared at his scarf as it was frozen instead of doing literally anything else

 

[Damage3245]

You realize the span of time we're talking about here could be a fraction of a second? Doing nothing for 0.5 seconds (for example) isn't exactly an immense duration.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Again you're assuming things why ignore what Yaoyorozu said which is Todoroki can launch the giant ice wall in the blink of an eye in favor of what you think

 

[Damage3245]

@Insert; No, I don't need to assume that. I'm just stating it is a possibility. As for Yaoyorozu's statement, I disagree with your interpretation of it.

To me she isn't saying that Todoroki needs to fully create the Giant Ice Wall in that blink, he just needs to shoot it off. The reason why he's able to finish it is because Aizawa's view was obstructed.

 

[GreatestSin]

We have an idea of Aizawa's recation and combat speed he scales to or above characters like Kirishima (who can react to bullets and characters stated to punch like a hail of bullets), Deku (who can perceive fte opponents and dodge multiple gun shots), Todoroki (who grabbed Deku's headband while Iida used RB which is fte).
The least assumptions would be to use what we are told and shown. Yaoyorozu specifically sites his giant ice wall from the festival rather than just saying you can shield us in a blink she tell him in that instant while Aizawa is blinking fire the giant ice wall nothing else. Assuming he fired just some ice in that blink is an assumption.

We know how fast his ice is since he could create it to stop Stain from hitting him along with Kirishima even referring to him as insta kill man or that he can intercept attacks from Wolfram.

Good, that doesnt mean the ice appeared in the 0.1 timeframe though unless we have a speed of aizawa on which we can scale that to.

Momo clearly says "fire", so its about starting the icewall, not finishing it, assuming he finished the ice is the assumption, we most solid position is the one where enough was created to cover todos body.

If we know how fast the ice is than what is this discussion all about? Appareantly you know todos speeds, the speed of the ice and aizawas, so why are we talking about this feat than?