Major MHA Speed Upgrade

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

@damage if it was just about creating some ice why did she specify the giant ice wall and as you've just said what you think not what she said she said he can fire the ice wall in that timeframe not create some ice or block Aizawa

@Greatestsin we do have speed for him he didn't cut his scarf until the ice got close to him and is comparable to supersonic characters

Then why did she specify the giant ice wall she said the attack can be released in that time so the attack can be produced in that time

Great question I already brought up earlier that Todoroki can be scaled to other characters but I was ignored

 

[Damage3245]

> if it was just about creating some ice why did she specify the giant ice wall and as you've just said what you think not what she said she said he can fire the ice wall in that timeframe not create some ice or block Aizawa

You know that the Giant Ice Wall fits the qualifications for "creating some ice" and "blocking Aizawa". She needed a large amount of ice created quickly, and the attack Todoroki previously displayed is a huge amount of ice created quickly.

She didn't say he could fully create it in that timeframe; just that in that timeframe he needed to make start making it as soon as he could.

Now then - if we take a look at the other calcs that are available to scale from, using the 13 ms reaction time for calcs, I think we can get consistent Supersonic to Supersonic+ ratings for characters at 5% Deku's speed and above.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The giant ice wall is the maximum he can release at once

She said he could fire the giant ice wall that is create the attack as that would be firing it.

Why can't the fighter pilot calc be used you still haven't provided a reason for why superhuman characters can't be assumed to have peak human perception speed instead of average human perception speed?

 

[GreatestSin]

@Insert

Ok than i will not argue on this point anymore, its strange that this talk went on for so long but its meaningless anyway.

BTW, do you or Damage have a interest in mentioning something to this MHA-related thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3774809

Its about what powers AFO should keep

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I've given what I think on that thread but thank you for letting it be more known

 

[Damage3245]

@Insert; I think the results derived from the average perception speed are more consistent for the verse as a whole.

I don't think characters being superhuman is justification enough for using the fighter pilot figure.

I'll post a list of the calcs later when I get a chance to show what I mean.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Damage, why do you keep referring to your scenario as a "possibility" as if that makes it right? There is far more evidence to suggest Todoroki made the giant ice wall in the time it took Aizawa to open his eyes than there is to suggest he didn't, and it requires far less assumptions on the readers part.

Unless you are intentionally attempting to downplay Todoroki's feat, any normal person would agree that Todoroki creates the ice wall in the timeframe we're given. Your "possibility" requires more assumptions than the calc, all of which have no actual evidence to support you. You keep saying "well it's a possibility so that makes the feat vague," but the reason possibilities like that aren't taken into account is because they require too many assumptions.

Your argument is born from skepticism and a technicality on Yaoyorozu's wording of Todoroki creating his ice wall. The manga would not have her specify him creating the giant ice wall, as well as give the timeframe of Aizawa blinking, if it didn't intend to have the two coincide. There is nothing to suggest your possibility occurred at all, so why on earth should anyone consider it valid enough to disregard this calc for Todoroki?

 

[Damage3245]

@Kingofwolves999; it doesn't require any hard assumptions, it is equally as valid and therefore makes the feat too ambiguous to be used to scale the entire verses speed.

The only amount of ice that we know absolutely had to be there is the amount required to shield Todoroki from Aizawa's view.

Any other stipulations you're throwing onto that are all in your head and not part of my argument.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Damage, we had a full conversation and line of arguments about how many assumptions need to be made about your possibility in contrast to the ones made in the calc. Stop ignoring them as "being in my head," these are problems in your possibility you're blatantly ignoring. Your possibility does not exist without taking these factors into account, because if you don't, you have no possibility at all.

The only assumption made in the calc was that the ice wall formed before Aizawa finished blinking. That is the only assumption necessary, all other context clues can be found in the manga itself. How Aizawa reacted, why it took him so long to react, etc. are all answered in the manga in this possibility. There are manga panels to coincide with the possibility of this assumption.

Your possibility requires more assumptions than that. Your possibility require that you assume Todoroki only made enough ice to cover himself and Momo, which has no support from the manga. Whether you like it or not, that is an assumption about the situation you are making. Your next assumptions needs to be that Aizawa reacts a certain way to his capture tape being frozen, a way that is very contradictory to his character and reaction speed. Aizawa would need to do absolutely nothing about his Capture Tape being frozen in order for your possibility to continue being feasible. In order to cover this contradiction, you then have to assume agai that post blink, he was just so incredibly shocked that he couldn't see Momo and Todoroki anymore that he just waited in midair while the ice, which he can easily react to, traveled along his scarf until it was right next to him, all while he just stared at the ice wall continuing to form, eyes completely open. That's two assumptions about Aizawa's character you have to make with no evidence backing you up whatsoever, and one assumption about the speed at which Todoroki can form his ice.

Do you see the difference in assumptions? Only one thing is assumed for the calc, the timeframe Todoroki made his ice. Your possibility assumes not only the timeframe he made the ice, which, unlike the calc, has no manga panel to act as evidence for it, but also a contradictory reaction from a character, with no evidence to suggest he would react this way, and another assumption to cover that contradictory, which, again, has no evidence to suggest it's true.

 

[Damage3245]

> Your possibility require that you assume Todoroki only made enough ice to cover himself and Momo

This is the big failure in your breakdown right here; I do not need to assume he only made enough ice to cover himself and Momo. I'm saying that is the minimum amount required. The minimum amount by definition means it can't be an assumption because that is what is shown to us in the manga.

Everything you've posted afterwards is just pure nonsense to be honest that has nothing to do with my argument. It's all in your head.

I'm seriously losing patience with you on this topic. How many times do I need to explain something for you to get what I'm actually talking about?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Just because it's the bare minimum that needs to be made doesn't mean it's the amount he actually made. That's the big problem with your claims. You're acting as if what you're saying is fact that requires no thought process behind or assumption necessary. You need to prove Todoroki made only that amount of ice for it to not be an assumption. ANY amount of ice Todoroki made is an assumption made by us, the viewer. The minimum ice he made is your assumption, the max amount is used in the calc. All that matters is figuring out which of these two is more accurate to use. You either assume the minimum or you assume the maximum. The in between is too vague to be used, so these two choices are left to be used.

The minimum doesn't work because of how many assumptions are needed for it to be accurate to what the manga shows, and the fact we're never shown what that minimum amount of ice actually looks like. The maximum does not require as many assumptions, and is supported by and shown in the manga, therefore it should be fine to use.

Ignoring the amount of assumptions you need to take for only the minimum amount of ice to be made is a fault in your stance, not a delusion on mine. You want to downplay this feat so badly that it's clouding your mind, making you think that what I'm saying is nonsense when actually it's completely coherent.

The minimum value requires more assumptions than the maximum value, so the maximum value, in the absence of any other valid values, and with clues from the source material that support it, should be fine to use in this calculation.

You're losing patience with me because you're attempting to avoid a specific topic I'm discussing: the amount of assumptions necessary for your minimum possibility to be true. You know that these assumptions have to be made for your possibility to be true, but if they have to be made, your possibility won't be accepted.

Tell me; do calcs exists on this site where multiple outcomes are possible, but thanks to judgement from other peers, a value can be determined by using other assumed values?

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not saying the minimum value is absolutely what occurred; I'm saying that's the baseline and more than that requires additional assumptions.

I'm saying we should just not use the feat at all.

> You know that these assumptions have to be made for your possibility to be true

No, I don't know that. I'm telling you that you're imagining these things like Aizawa being frozen in the air, being completely shocked by their tactic, deciding consciously to do nothing for a long period of time, etc.

Those things aren't my argument; they're yours.

> The in between is too vague to be used, so these two choices are left to be used.

It appears you're almost close to figuring out what I'm actually arguing for. You're almost agreeing with me that it is too vague to be used.

 

[Sora_and_buff_riku]

I mean we could just abandon this and use the one Rusty used because it doesn't seem wrong at first glance and it doesn't seem to assume anything. I'm surprised that this is still going.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

If you're not saying that the minimum value is what absolutely occurred, then you have to assume it occurred for any of your argument to be relevant. That gives us two assumptions: a maximum and a minimum. We can either assume Todoroki made the minimum amount of ice required to cover himself and Momo, or we can assume he made the maximum amount of ice to cover himself and Momo. This is a standard calculation problem; there is a minimum and a maximum, so which is more accurate? The more accurate one should be used, obviously, and that would be the maximum.

The minimum is never shown to the viewer at all. You cannot calculate the minimum value because there is no picture, reference or writing that shows what the minimum would be. Why would anyone assume that the minimum value is just as correct as the maximum value when the minimum is never displayed or shown to them?

These assumptions aren't mine, they're yours. They're the ones you have to make in order for the minimum value to be true. I'm not the one assuming the minimum value. I'm not the one that has to prove several points of my argument without panels to support me. It's you.

If the minimum is assumed, why did Aizawa not pull or cut his capture tape sooner than what he did? I've asked this question before, and you gave me an answer, so what is your current belief? If you're saying the minimum value is just as valid as the maximum value, you need to substantiate your claim by making it so the minimum value can fit into the exact same scenarios as the maximum, which would include Aizawa's reaction.

Every statement that can be made about the maximum in terms of this feat needs to be true about the minimum as well for them to be equivalent in status. If something is off, requires speculation, has no evidence to support it, or is just baseless conjecture, the minimum does not hold up against the maximum.

The in between has always been vague, hence why no one would bother to mention it. The closest anyone can get to the middle of the minimum and maximum is the height at which Aizawa's scarf began to freeze and he reacted.

 

[Damage3245]

I mean we could just abandon this and use the one Rusty used because it doesn't seem wrong at first glance and it doesn't seem to assume anything. I'm surprised that this is still going.

I'm currently evaluating Rusty's calc. Just waiting on a response from him.

@Kingofwolves999;

> These assumptions aren't mine, they're yours.

Here is where we fundamentally disagree. You're the one that comes up with these hypthoetical issues.

They aren't required for my argument.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

These issues aren't hypothetical though. If you want to assume the minimum value, you need to address the issues that contradict your assumption, making it false and therefore not as plausible as the maximum value.

Aizawa is fast enough to react to Todoroki's ice quite easily, so if the minimum value is used, and only a small portion of his capture tape is becoming frozen, a portion quite far away from him, why would he not have reacted faster? Why did he wait until the ice had almost reached him, until the ice wall was fully formed in fact, before cutting it off and repositioning himself?

 

[Damage3245]

> Aizawa is fast enough to react to Todoroki's ice quite easily, so if the minimum value is used, and only a small portion of his capture tape is becoming frozen, a portion quite far away from him, why would he not have reacted faster?

Do we need to know a "why"? Isn't the only important factor here what did actually happen on the page?

We know either way that Aizawa only cut the capture tape at this point. We don't need to speculate on why he reacted the way that he did. Maybe it was because he didn't need to react until then; maybe it was because he was too slow to react to it.

Since we're just getting into a circular pattern here, I'm going to create a list of calcs that I think we should use to evaluate the verse. You're free to make your own list if you want. Then we just need to decide on which version is the best to use for scaling.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

That right there, what you just typed, is why I heavily disagree with the minimum value being just as valid as the maximum. That single word is what causes your entire argument to seem unreliable.

"Maybe"

This word implies that you don't know. It's not that you don't need to answer why, it's that you can't answer why. You don't know why Aizawa would react that way in your example. You don't know why Aizawa would wait that long to react. If you yourself don't know why something would happen, why should anyone take your side? Why should I believe you when you say that the minimum is just as valid as the maximum, when you yourself can't definitively answer questions about your own stance?

You don't know, you can't know, so you have to assume. You're forced to make assumptions within an assumption, no clear answers to anything or evidence to support you. This causes your possibility, your assumption, to fall apart. That is the issue I have with your argument.

 

[Damage3245]

> It's not that you don't need to answer why, it's that you can't answer why.

Well, technically it is both.

Aizawa cutting the Capture Tape as the ice approaches him doesn't need a definitive answer one way or the other. We know that it happened; we don't need to look for a reason why it happened.

My argument may seem unreliable to you, but you're the only one with these issues around Aizawa. I don't have a problem with it.

Here's the main point of why I disagree with you here; you are starting off with the preconception that Aizawa can react to the ice so quickly that if he had just finished his blink then he would instantly cut off the capture tape before the ice gets close to him. I don't share that preconception, so I don't need to assume that when looking at the feat.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Damage your argument is unreliable compared to assuming Todoroki did the attack in the main timeframe due to yours requiring more assumptions such as assuming Aizawa just stared at Todoroki's ice as it approached him and you can't just ignore that since if you can't bring up a legitimate reason your claim falls apart

 

[Kingofwolves999]

You not feeling the need to analyze everything about this feat is a sign of disinterest or laziness, not confidence or correctness. You believing that you don't need to go in depth about the implications of your assumptions does not excuse you from criticism, or make your points infalliable. You're attempting to prove something to the wiki, not the other way around. You are the one who has to prove your stance, it's not anyone's job to accept what you say as fact because it's what you personally believe with nothing from the source material to assist you. You're trying to convince me that your stance is valid, and therefore this feat too vague. I'm saying there are contradictions in your stance that make me not believe it is valid. What you're retaliating with is basically "just ignore those, I don't care for them."

If you're proposing an alternative series of events that causes Aizawa's reaction of cutting the Capture Tape to not make sense, then yes, we need to analyze why he would do so in the first place. Your minimum ice assumption requires that question to make sense in order to be as valid as the maximum ice assumption.

Of course you don't have an issue with Aizawa; if there is an issue with Aizawa, your entire argument becomes invalid. That doesn't mean you can just ignore all the points I've brought up about how the ice forming only enough to cover momo and Todoroki causes contradictions.

Are you under the preconception that Aizawa's perception speed is slower than Base Deku, Iida, Bakugo, Twice, Mr. Compress and Stain's perception speeds? Because that is the only way Aizawa would not be able to react near instantly to Todoroki's ice from that far away from him.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage your argument is unreliable compared to assuming Todoroki did the attack in the main timeframe due to yours requiring more assumptions such as assuming Aizawa just stared at Todoroki's ice as it approached him and you can't just ignore that since if you can't bring up a legitimate reason your claim falls apart

Why do you think Aizawa would be spending that time just staring instead of reacting? You don't even know how short a span of time it could be yet you're acting like he's spending several seconds floating in the air staring at it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be arguing from an argument of disbelief; you can't possibly believe that Aizawa would do anything other than perfectly react in a fraction of a millisecond.

@King; there's a difference between perception speed and reaction speed.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

You're the one saying that Todoroki didn't create his entire ice wall in .1 seconds if he didn't do so and Aizawa has finished blinking he can definitely perceive and react to the ice. The scenario you're presenting is one in which Aizawa spends time in the air staring at the ice approaching him and doesn't cut it till it gets very close to him. This isn't an argument of disbelief I'm asking you to tell me why Aizawa would stare at an attack coming at him and make no moves to counter and if you can't answer this then your argument falls apart since it'd be nonsensical for Aizawa to not react

 

[Damage3245]

> The scenario you're presenting is one in which Aizawa spends time in the air staring at the ice approaching him and doesn't cut it till it gets very close to him.

Again though, you don't even know how much time you're talking about.

Say hypothetically that it took 0.1 seconds for the Giant Ice Wall to be halfway made -> Aizawa opens his eyes -> It's another 0.1 seconds for the Giant Ice Wall to be finished -> Aizawa finishes reacting and grabs his knife to cut the tape, etc...

0.1 seconds is virtually no time at all. You can't boil it down to him "doing nothing".

These characters aren't machines you know, who automatically respond on Ultra Instinct.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Damage Aizawa can react to Todoroki and his attacks we've established that don't attempt to just leave it vague. Give a proper answer or your stance falls apart. You're acting as though these superhuman characters can't react to these things if the ice wall wasn't finished when Aizawa had opened his eyes he'd react to it. You're saying .1 seconds is no time when that's peak human perception even if you wanted to disagree Aizawa was supersonic he's still scalable to fte characters or characters with fte perception like Todoroki

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry, but I disagree. I think you're just overthinking it; in my mind Aizawa didn't float in the air do nothing until the last moment... he just reacted to the ice attack and cut off his Capture Tape.

In your mind that could only have taken a fraction of a millisecond. To me, I don't have any issue with accepting that it might be longer than that.

I don't think we'll make any more progress going back and forth like this. I'll be posting my proposed speed scaling tonight.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I've already said .1 seconds is quite a bit of time for these characters if even a peak human can apparently perceive it on this wiki.

How am I overthinking it? My original stance is just use what we're told from the manga you're the one saying possibly this and maybe that, I'm just asking you to justify your stance by you saying the ice wall wasn't fully formed in .1 seconds you're implying Aizawa stared at the attack form and if you can't give a proper reason for why he'd do this then your argument is obviously the less likely option

 

[Damage3245]

My stance is what we're told from the manga too; it's equally as valid as yours, if not more so since I'm looking it at up from the baseline approach.

I'm not implying Aizawa only stared at the attack; you're the one starting with the presumption that characters can react perfectly to anything in the bare minimum amount of time.

 

[Sora_and_buff_riku]

Yo guys just want to say that I made a thread about some of the abilities that the characters have it would be nice to receive feedback.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

@Damage Your stance is you disagreeing with what is stated in the show because you don't want to believe the feat could've been done

You actually are Aizawa is beyond peak human reaction time and the baseline for that is a little over .1 seconds so please stop acting like .1 seconds is a very small window for Aizaw to react. Aizawa staring at the attack is what must've happened in your scenario if not why did he wait till the ice was almost touching him to cut the capture tape

@sora I'll check it out

 

[Damage3245]

The simplest answer I can give you is; Aizawa is a person. He doesn't have Instinctive Reaction to flawlessly operate in the minimum amount of time possible.

It's all very well to say that mathematically speaking a character should be able to percieve something happen in a hundredth of a second - but nobody actually processes information like that and automatically responds in the real world. Aizawa could have been surprised, are you denying this is a possibility? People in real life when experiencing shock don't react to things quickly or correctly. Are you saying that Aizawa is an emotionless machine?

Do you get where I'm coming from here?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

He can clearly operate based on how fast he is you're unironically arguing that a superhuman with fte perception is going to have difficulty reacting to something an athlete or peak human could react to.

Aizawa is surprised when his opponents attacked him? Now you're bringing up even more possibilities you see why your argument isn't as viable? You can only provide maybe and possibly with no certainty. Never said Aizawa is an emotionless machine but getting attacked when you're open shouldn't surprise anybody.

In the scenario we're shown Momo tells Todoroki that he can fire his attack in the instant Aizawa closes his eye and before he opens it again, Aizawa cuts the scarf when it has gotten close to him clearly because the attack occurred in that blink and finally firing an attack involves actually getting it off if she says he can fire the giant ice wall he'd need to have made it to consider it fired.

 

[Damage3245]

> you see why your argument isn't as viable?

No, as you said, they're possibilities.

In my scenario; Momo tells Todoroki to fire his attack the moment he can, which is the moment that Aizawa's eyes have closed. Todoroki does so, and Aizawa cuts off his capture tape when he notices the ice travelling along it toward him.

There's nothing special or crazy that needs to be assumed for this scenario. The only thing we know for certain is that the baseline amount of ice created in that 0.1 seconds must have been at least enough ice to shield Todoroki from Aizawa's eyesight otherwise the ice would have been halted.

That's what I've been getting at the whole time.

I recommend dropping this discussion point until we need to make a decision about the speed scaling. I'll be posting my proposed version in a few hours; feel free to create your own.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Your possibility is not as feasible as the one presented in the calc. Why? Because it's either contradicted or takes too many assumptions about things without evidence.

The problem with your scenario is that the amount of ice needed to make Momo and Todoroki unseeable to Aizawa isn't the same amount required to get that close to him before he cuts his capture tape off.

When Todoroki fires the giant ice wall, in the panel we see the ice wall fully formed, Aizawa is not doing anything. It's only the panel afterwards, that he begins to react to the ice freezing his scarf. He does not start to cut his capture tape at all until the wall is complete. So your scenario is incorrect, because if he saw ice traveling along his tape before the wall was fully formed, he would not have waited until it was fully formed before cutting it. Your entire assumption is being opposed by Aizawa's reaction, because you either have a contradiction, or need to make vast assumptions about his actions with no contextual evidence to support you.

The assumption that Todoroki only made the minimum amount of ice in our given timeframe is not as reliable in comparison to the assumption that he made the maximum.

 

[Damage3245]

Let's agree to disagree on that for now. This current line of argument isn't getting us anywhere.

I'll get back to this thread when I have the calcs.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

"Agree to disagree" is the last thing someone attempting to prove something to others should say.

The only reason we're not getting anywhere is because you feel that you don't have to analyze this scene in depth to prove your point. You feel that just saying "this is a possibility" is enough for us to believe you about everything you're arguing for. You want us to completely disregard this feat, regardless of any issues we have with the possibility you're presenting.

Your entire argument stems from a techinicality on Momo's words. Your preconceived notion of what "fire it off" means is the root of your stance, and that is far too loose ground for me to agree.

Your assumption about Todoroki's ice speed is too faulty in comparison to the calc's assumption, so we should not take your assumption to be equal to it, and the calc should be fine.

If your calcs will provide a better argument for your side than the assumptions you're forced to make from the possibility you've presented, I agree.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

Currently getting an evaluation on a calc, and will be posting about three new calcs over the next couple of days. Sorry it is taking longer than expected, but I would prefer it we could try and sort out the verse's scaling once I have these calcs evaluated.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Take your time but which calc is bing evaluated the ice one?

 

[Damage3245]

The Mirio one. I'm also evaluating the ice one, just waiting on a response for it.