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Major Dormammu Revision

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Oh, cool. More 1-A is always nice. Especially since Marvel only has... three.
 
@Tracer

My apologies for being too irritable. I find it very mentally straining to deal with long arguments and multiple other tasks at the same time, especially if they deal with subjects very similar to things I have had to argue about many times before.

@Kepekley23

Which recent comicbooks did Al Ewing use to upgrade the Marvel Multiverse the way you mentioned?
 
@ByAsura iẗ́'s still an amp of some sorts if they couldn't even reach his realm, also i was talking about the prerequsities needed to even fight eternity in that comic to clarify.

Also, we don't add amps which lasted for 3 issues and were ignored by continuity.

@Tracer

??????????????? Dude if they literally make it clear that no writer took the run into canon then it's by definition ignored by continuity, what's the problem here? It's not something like an outlier, it's literally the continunity being established to just not take the run into consideration.

Who said i was referring to that scan only?See here, smh.

No, you have never shown the explanation, and as I said that's still nitpicking, it's really not that hard to make a syllogism in this regard, besides, as I said the amp itself doesn't even count as an Incarnation, since the base power was unidentified and all we have seen were just amps.
 
@Kepekley23

Okay. Thanks. I have read those runs though, and do not remember Oblivionspace being mentioned.
 
@Ant It's alright, why don't you take a look at the power additions and give input on that instead?

@Hykuu

It isn't clear at all that the run was ignored, can you prove that what you're claiming is the case?

And how exactly was I supposed to know you were referring to a separate scan when you only posted one previously?

Are you... are you serious? Do I need to show the eleven examples showing that Dormammu has incarnations again? And again, it does count, because that's literally all we see from the incarnation before he absorbs Eternity's power.
 
Power Nullification - This seems diffusely defined.

Sleep Manipulation - This seems fine.

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation - This seems fine.

Reality Warping - This seems like more clear power nullification.

Cosmic Awareness/Precognition - Cosmic Awareness seems fine, not precognition.

Non-Corporeal - This seems likely.

Mind Manipulation - This seems fine.

Every single ability Doctor Strange (Classic) has - This seems fine as well.
 
- Yes it's very clear, you're shifting the burden, post a scan where multi eternity Umar was mentioned.

- Because you had no reason to assume everything was in that one scan? Idk how you even began to assume intent.

- Okay what? You realize the multi eternity feat here which you are praising is literally done by an amp external to the incarnation itself? This entire response doesn't logically follow, honestly
 
@Hykuu

No, it's really not. I'd like you to show proof that the storyline is non-canon. Umar, an already inconsistent character, being treated inconsistently does not equal the storyline being ignored.

Uh, you gave that one scan after you made your claim. I had no reason to assume everything wasn't there.

Since when was I only referring to Dormammu killing Multi-Eternity? And I don't see what you aren't understanding. All we see in this incarnation is the amp from the cosmic axis.

@Ant

Okay, thank you. With Dormammu having all of Strange's powers, how would that be added to his page? Would all of them be added in a different tab in his powers and abilities section?
 
I kinda thought that too, but for the sake of versus matches, wouldn't it be easier to list them all on Dormammu's profile?
 
@Tracer

I'm honestly confused on how you even came to some of these conclusions

"No, it's really not"

Good rebuttal, man, I am not inclined to post the negative here, I can't post evidence of non-existence, it's sort of like asking someone "prove I am not thinking of the color green now", textbook shifting of the burden.

Again, this claim is just going in circles, why would you assume that's everything to begin with? Anyways, since you already conceded to the scans there is no reason to argue this.

Okay and??? The Cosmic Axis literally made Dormammu go from infintismal specks in comparison to Eternity to actual threats, I literally don't see the argument here at all, "we only see this base with this amp" doesn't quantify how powerful the base is at all.
 
@Tracer

Since he hasn't actually demonstrated them, I think that my solution seems better.
 
Antvasima said:
@Kepekley23

Okay. Thanks. I have read those runs though, and do not remember Oblivionspace being mentioned.
Click to expand...
The outside of the Eighth Omniverse (all of them, in fact) = Oblivion, as per the Ultimates.
 
@Hykuu

That wasn't my entire comment, so... You made the claim it isn't taken into consideration or counted as canon. I expect you to be a le to prove it, as I see no reason to think it's non-canon. Especially when at the end of this run, Umar depowered Dormammu and he's been weaker ever since.

Because I had no reason to think you didn't put everything?

Did I say it did quantify his base? No. As far as we've seen, this is his eighth incarnation's base. We never see him without the amp, so as I've explained several times now, there's no reason to not just consider it his incarnation. And you do realize killing Multi-Eternity wasn't the only argument made for this incarnation, right?

@Ant

Fair enough.
 
Okay. I agree about that interpretation. I just don't remember that word being used.
 
The word oblivionspace is never used, I am just saying that to differentiate it from the entity proper. I guess "void" would be more appropriate.
 
Who would be the new 1-As for Marvel you mentioned, @Kepekley? Would it be characters not on the site yet, or would the likes of, say, The Living Tribunal be upgraded?
 
@Tracer

Okay, you are still shfiting the burden but all you are doing is just repeating the same thing? Show me any other run referencing Multi Eternity Dormammu, It is physically Impossible for me to show evidence of absence in this context.

Okay and why did I say we should stop arguing over this since it's irrelevant as you conceded to the scans? ffs

Okay if you can't quantify his base Incarnation why are you labelling an AMP unto the Incarnation itself AS the Incarnation? Also Pan-dimensional is a term which can be 2-A
 
It looks like I'm a little late to all of this, so sorry I couldn't be of much help. I think the OP has been pretty thoroughly reviewed and responded to by everybody here.
 
Then don't make claims you can't prove. It's not shifting the burden when you made the claim it isn't canon and I want you to prove that. And you do realize something doesn't have to be referenced again for it to be canon, right? And again, Dormammu has been portrayed as vastly weaker ever since Umar weakened him, and in the OP I gave a scan from one of the Marvel handbooks that acknowledged the Defenders run.

Because it is literally all we see of it. Hell, we don't even know for a fact that Dormammu's eighth incarnation came into being before the shift in the cosmic axis. And I already explained how in the context of this story, it would be High 1-B, and Dormammu was explicitly stated to be multiversal.
 
LordTracer said:
Who would be the new 1-As for Marvel you mentioned, @Kepekley? Would it be characters not on the site yet, or would the likes of, say, The Living Tribunal be upgraded?
Click to expand...
It's going to be characters who already exist. And no, not the Tribunal.

Since I'm still talking it out with other knowledgeable members, I can't say for certain if it will get approved, but I myself am personally convinced.
 
Zark2099 said:
What is your logic of incarnations again btw? Is it a canonical thing or something?
Click to expand...
It's a canonical thing. I made a post earlier that showed eleven different scans showing that whenever Dormammu is destroyed, he comes back stronger than before, and in a new body. The only exception so far has been when Umar depowered him in Defenders.
 
Eh, it seems non-sensical and out of context IMO, the statements there are pretty generic in terms of every villain return ("Oh my God Mysterio is more powerful than ever now") so it can might as well be interpreted as BS hype in most scans and not exactly canonical.

Also, I've explained in detail why I think 2nd Incarnation isn't High 1-B, and I doubt anyone is in disagreement with that, so I have a hard time believing that a single incarnation (8th) jumped to High 1-B while every other one is miles behind.

Also also, by entertaining your logic of him growing stronger every time, his 8th Incarnation can be considered a temporary amp in terms of his expansive appearances, considering it's vastly superior to his regular showcasing and didn't last very long.

TL;DR I don't think Incarnations make sense for scaling purposes, and even if they are, I still don't think Dormammu warrants a High 1-B
 
Again, the burden doesn't fall on the person making the negation if that's their initial claim, you are quite literally asking me to do something Impossible which goes against basic laws of logic. There are Guidebooks which literally reference events which were never published, let alone shit just ignored by continuity. Also it does have to be a follow up or referenced or not contradictory, obviously.

Okay if we don't know that then how can you verify how powerful the Incarnation even is? pretty self defeating.
 
Yeah, but this happens literally every time Dormammu is "destroyed," and has happened eleven times, even pre-nerf. And it's still happening after his nerf. I think it's happened way too much for it to not be canonical. Personally, I'd compare it to the likes of Ultron, who has several different bodies and forms. It's basically the same as Dormammu's incarnations.

Eh, I don't really care about the second anymore, I'm solely focused on the eighth.

Eh... considering that it is Classic Dormammu's (for lack of a better term) final form more Ultron comparisons, I think it would only make sense to acknowledge and add it. Also since the storyline this incarnation appeared in is what led to Modern Dormammu being a thing (that profile still needs to be made btw), I think it's major enough.
 
Still, I don't recall him being superior in any regard, unlike Ultron, whose entire skillset basically changes with each generation.

You still list it, so there.

I disagree, just because something is for Classic doesn't mean we'd slap it on the profiles (Remember 2-C Classic Strange?). Plus, I reckon this is the three issue transformation everyone was talking about, right? If it's literally an AP shift while being fairly obscure, I don't see a point adding it, especially because of how massive a jump it is
 
@Hykuu

Except the claim of something being non-canon can quite easily be proven. I have literally no reason to believe you here. Usually when something is declared non-canon, there's a writer statement, a retcon, y'know, some actual evidence? Considering the fact that this story took place in Earth-616, and at times the entire multiverse, and there has been no evidence provided to support the idea of it being non-canon, I see no reason to believe it isn't. Also when has a guidebook ever treated events never published as a part of the character's official history?

Because... it literally has feats and statements in the story...? I would've thought that's kinda obvious.
 
@Zark

Dormammu's fifth incarnation gained a pretty clear and significant power boost since he gained all the memories and powers of Doctor Strange. Also his third incarnation was stated to be capable of merely rivaling the Celestials while his fifth was stated to be capable of destroying them all. So there's clear power progression.

Cause I'm too lazy to remove it from the OP UwU

I know, but this is a major thing to the character of Dormammu himself. This was his peak (minus absorbing Eternity). This is what led to his drastic nerf. Because apparently I can't stop comparing him to Ultro, it's like how Ultron's Final Form is a key on his profile despite it being pretty short lived. Also, I'm not sure how long Mad God Genis-Vell lasted, but that could perhaps be another comparison, as could perhaps King of Hell Blackheart.
 
Eh, idk dude, it seems super minor and unimportant, especially considering the transformation it preceeds. If Final Form Ultron is like that he should go too tbh.
 
I think since it's his peak, and likely the strongest he'll ever be unless Marvel decides to do something with Dormy, as well as the storyline being major to his history since it led to his nerf, and it being referenced as a part of Dormammu, Umar and Eternity's major histories in the guidebook, I think it's major enough.
 
Hykuu said:
@ByAsura iẗ́'s still an amp of some sorts if they couldn't even reach his realm, also i was talking about the prerequsities needed to even fight eternity in that comic to clarify.
Also, we don't add amps which lasted for 3 issues and were ignored by continuity.
Click to expand...
It's not an amp. It was just to access the nexus by shredding the fabric of reality. There's no indication they even used it in the fight.

I know, I was saying this myself.
 
Kepekley23 said:
It's going to be characters who already exist. And no, not the Tribunal.

Since I'm still talking it out with other knowledgeable members, I can't say for certain if it will get approved, but I myself am personally convinced.
Click to expand...
Here are the members that I usually recommend to ask about things like this:

Sera EX, Sandman31, Matthew Schroeder, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfa.
 
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